Vegans Going Crazy Over Oil

Emma JC

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I hesitated when I first saw this. I like VegSource, but it's only a single series of tests on one person(and an anecdote by Jeffs own admission). Nothing that could be called conclusive by any stretch. Besides this, the meal as presented was a purely nut - no other fiber meal, so that too made me wonder. However, heart disease patients should follow the advice of Esselstyn/Ornish regardless, as the long term research on reversing heart disease (and preventing it) is already there.
I agree with your hesitation and with your recommendation.

The thing that is interesting, for me, is just the bottom line info that nuts or any other overt fat can stiffen our arteries, whether temporarily or longer term. So I would take, from this, that having a bowl of pasta before going for a run would be a better choice than having a handful of nuts. As I don't run I would apply that to tasks like raking or shovelling the driveway. How many people have you heard of that ate a big dinner then went out and shovelled or raked or did some other task that required good circulation? I know someone that happened to on Christmas Day, big turkey dinner, outside for shovelling, heart attack, gone. Very sad and now it makes more sense.

Emma JC
 
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Hazelsqueak

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My endocrinologist told me to avoid processed oils because they are just empty fat calories with practically no nutritional value. All they will do is make my hypothyroidism worse. But I don't harp on other people for eating oil and I've actually never heard of anyone freaking out over people eating oil until now lol.
 

TofuRobot

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With all respect I can tell you from first hand experience that throughout the Mediterranean countries I have lived in, the vast majority rely heavily on fish and refined plant oils (mainly olive oil). I'm referring to Greece/Greek Isles, Spain, Turkey, Southern Italy and Sicily. A reliance on plant based diets has unfortunately not reached many of these. The American media may skew the dietary habits of this region, but from being closer to the source there is no doubt over which foods are most heavily consumed, and it is certainly not vegetarian or vegan.
OK - I was trying to remember what Dr. Greger had said about the Med. diet and what he felt was likely the cause of lower incidence of heart disease.. turns out it was likely nuts, and the fact that the diet - which is important to keep in mind the study that this idea came from was done was post WWII, and not in modern times - was primarily vegetable based:

"After World War II, the government of Greece asked the Rockefeller Foundation to come in and assess the situation. Impressed by the low rates of heart disease in the region, nutrition scientist Ancel Keys, after whom K-rations were named, initiated his famous Seven Countries Study, in which he found the rate of fatal heart disease on the Greek isle of Crete was 20 times lower than in the United States. They also had the lowest cancer rates and fewest deaths overall. What were they eating? Their diets were more than 90% plant-based, which may explain why coronary heart disease was such a rarity. A rarity, that is, except for a “small class of rich people whose diet differed from that of the general population: they ate meat every day instead of every week or two. So, the heart of the Mediterranean diet is mainly vegetarian, much lower in meat and dairy–which Keys considered the major villains in the diet because of their saturated fat content."

Why Was Heart Disease Rare in the Mediterranean
The other 5 videos in his series on this diet are here:
  1. The Mediterranean Diet or a Whole Food Plant-Based Diet?
  2. PREDIMED: Does Eating Nuts Prevent Strokes?
  3. Which Parts of the Mediterranean Diet Extended Life?
  4. Do Flexitarians Live Longer?
  5. Improving on the Mediterranean Diet
The idea that olive oil is somehow responsible - or even a contributing factor - for the health of people in the Mediterranean is obscure at the very best.
 
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TofuRobot

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I'm "on" board with more people becoming vegan. You're not going to achieve anything close to world veganism or even majority vegetarian by telling people they can't eat things like french fries. I'm interested in real life and real results, not an unachievable ideal.
The reality is - right or wrong, like it or not - many people turn to a vegan diet in search of better health. And there are people who are living a life without oil (or as close as one could possibly come), myself included, so it's certainly not unachievable. It would be irresponsible to tell someone it's perfectly fine to eat their french fries if their goal is better health. Trying to censor that out of the discussion doesn't seem beneficial to anyone. In fact, not encouraging people to avoid unhealthy foods seems rather counter productive. It doesn't really help when those people fail because they didn't reach their health-related goals and give up on the very idea of being vegan - even blaming their poor health on their "vegan diet." If someone is going to ask a question about oil, or make a statement that oil is healthy, I am sometimes going to be one of the ones point out the fact that it's not. Engaging in a healthy discussion about the various nutritional value (or lack thereof) of any food product does not really equate to "freaking out."
 

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You didn't address the most important question. Head down to Texas and preach your intolerance of their deeply held beliefs? Not going to cut it, no contest.
Your use of the word academically cannot be taken seriously.
I'm sure however that you were never vegetarian not so long ago, or god forbid a carnist? Could not be so from your current rhetoric.
The head of the department at my grad school program doesn't share your adolescent amusement. If anything you seem like quite a nasty person who doesn't like other vegans or support sincere activism.

I'll go about making the world a better place. You just keep on being a nay saying bully to people with the intelligence and integrity to actually make a difference in the world, and tell me later how far that gets you in life.
 

Forest Nymph

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Read the studies quoted here: https://ucdintegrativemedicine.com/2016/05/why-you-should-opt-out-of-olive-oil/#gs.92e32e

Bottom line - all isolated oils impair endothelial function. In terms of overall health effects, they are better than animal fats, but they still do harm. Fiber mitigates harm to a degree, but they still do harm.



I think you make too many assumptions about your audience. There will be people there that know very little about vegan diets and health in general, and there will be people more knowledgeable. I know meat eaters that limit or eliminate refined sugar, watch fried food intake and read labels
on dressing bottles. If you come to your presentations ignoring studies like those included in the above this will be less effective to people who know
better. Dressings and veggie burgers can be made without oil, why not increase your knowledge in how that can be done without assuming everyone is operating from a "don't know/don't care" attitude regarding health.
Because there's enough obnoxious people on YouTube selling the health angle, only to give us a puppy pile of ex vegans who followed the next health fad for fish or grass fed butter in their coffee.

I never said that I would ignore health concerns entirely, but I think the health concerns about oil are orthorexic level in many cases, since there's no evidence oil free vegans are outliving flexitarians who eat olive or canola oil in moderation.

I can mention lower oil alternatives to dieters and people who have health problems, but since I am doing a plant based project for environmental reasons its certainly not the center of my presentation. I'm more concerned about people who really need vegan alternatives to their favorite foods to psychologically handle the change and stick with it.
 
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TofuRobot

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There was a study that indicated that the cardiovascular risks associated with oil consumption was at least or somewhat moderated when taken with greens, so if I do consume oil (it happens with take out/restaurant food), I try to include a large salad. This was part of one of Dr Greger's videos.
 
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Nekodaiden

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Because there's enough obnoxious people on YouTube selling the health angle, only to give us a puppy pile of ex vegans who followed the next health fad for fish or grass fed butter in their coffee.
Lol, I think you way overestimate the influence some of these people have. For instance look at Rawvana's latest video "Turning the page". It is overwhelmingly disliked and many vegans in the comments are saying they are done with her. Her youtube career is dying a quick death. A few will continue to listen to her, but who cares about them? They obviously don't mind being lied to and taken for a ride for money - not exactly the kind of conviction driven people that sustain any movement.

For the rest (non vegans), they weren't vegan already, won't go vegan and someone like Rawvana will just serve to bolster their confirmation bias.

I never said that I would ignore health concerns entirely, but I think the health concerns about oil are orthorexic level in many cases, since there's no evidence oil free vegans are outliving flexitarians who eat olive or canola oil in moderation.
Epidemiology studies count as evidence, that's one set. Most long lived peoples did not use oil and ate a generally low fat vegan (or close to vegan) diet. Clinical studies also count as evidence, such as those done by Ornish and Esselstyn. You can repeat "there is no evidence" as much as you like or change the requirements of burden of proof, but it doesn't change the fact that plenty of research has already been done that provides enough evidence for people interested in this topic.

I can mention lower oil alternatives to dieters and people who have health problems, but since I am doing a plant based project for environmental reasons its certainly not the center of my presentation. I'm more concerned about people who really need vegan alternatives to their favorite foods to psychologically handle the change and stick with it.
Ok, I get that. I do hope that whatever vegan alternatives you do suggest can also meet the basic health needs of people, not leave them hungry, get them adequate amounts of nutrients and also not cost a small fortune.
 
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TofuRobot

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Lou

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How about motor oil? Isn't it ground up dead dinosaurs?

;)
 

Jai

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How about motor oil? Isn't it ground up dead dinosaurs?
Yes, and White Vinegar is a byproduct of it's manufacture. So scratch that from your list of food products too.
 

Lou

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Yes, and White Vinegar is a byproduct of it's manufacture. So scratch that from your list of food products too.
What?
 

Emma JC

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Yes, and White Vinegar is a byproduct of it's manufacture. So scratch that from your list of food products too.
Did some research on this and it is my opinion that it is not true. Might be some instances, not in regular white vinegar.

It seems it might have been a rumour started by Heinz a long time ago.

Emma JC
 
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Lou

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What are you guys talking about? white vinegar is a byproduct of motor oil? dinosaurs? motor oil isn't vegan because it exploits dinosaurs?

I make one little joke and ....
 

Nekodaiden

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I've made vinegar (not white) from apple cider. One basically has to start with a higher alcoholic drink first (citrus may need to be included too - I've never heard of beer being made to vinegar) then expose it to air and the vinegar fly (they will find it) will change it or inoculate it yourself if you don't want to wait. I'm no chemist and I suppose it's possible to make it chemically from something like motor oil, but I'd wager that's a myth just on the cost involved, especially seeing as how the world isn't short on ferment-able citrus fruits.
 

Lou

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Ok, well, maybe vinegar isn't vegan because it exploits flies??
 
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Bob Who

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I thought that commercial white vinegars could be made from cellulose from wood by products.
 
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Nekodaiden

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Ok, well, maybe vinegar isn't vegan because it exploits flies??

Like bees exploit flowers of plants..
Or worms and other bugs exploit the soil which plants grow in..

I don't know - ask the UK Vegan Society.

I prefer Watson Veganism. I may not be a perfect Watson follower (cuz I drink beer which isn't a whole food) - but otherwise animal products are
a craving of the past, provided the majority of my diet is rich in
enough calories, nutrients, fiber and resistant starch from whole plant foods.

"Tiered ethics" (eggs and dairy "better" than meat) are for vegetarians
or struggling junk food vegans who skimp on fiber, resistant starch,
adequate calories and nutrition then wonder why the egg or hunk of cheese
makes them feel better.

F*** that mental gymnasium!

Now pass the vinegar, please.
 
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