Vegans Going Crazy Over Oil

[Forest Nymph]

Look I have respect for the fact that oil-free vegan cooking is a wonderful remedy for heart disease (the only diet actually shown to reverse rather than simply manage heart disease!) but this harping on oil being from the devil really has to stop now.

"Blue Zones" are areas of the world filled with some of the largest, healthiest aging populations and/or longest living elderly individuals. While a percentage of those people might be oil-free vegans, most of them are 7th Day Adventists, or eat some variation of the Mediterranean or Japanese diets. A 7th Day Adventist vegetarian diet includes olive and flax seed oils for salads from their Adventist Health Ministries and oils like canola used in moderation for cooking. In Japan, canola oil is also frequently used for dishes such as tempura or in salad dressings. The Mediterranean diet of course is not a vegetarian diet, but limits red meat to no more than a few times per month, only recommends eating fish or chicken about twice a week, and contains copious amounts of olive oil and wine.

If you choose to be oil free, good for you. It may have restored your personal health, or make you feel good about yourself. Maybe you just never liked oily foods, or feel you are at an age where you want to eat a restrictive diet. All of that is fine - I am not telling you not to, and I am not arguing with ten or fifteen vegan doctors who also recommend oil-free or low oil living to treat various issues such as obesity, cancer, and type 2 diabetes.

On the other hand, this exaggeration and harping on other people about oil has really got to stop. If you keep making people think the only way they can be vegan is to give up veggie burgers, French fries, or other goodies they enjoy, you're just driving people away. Not everyone is in this to be "on a diet" for health, some people just want a sustainable way to be vegan for animals and/or the planet.

 

[Nekodaiden]

I've yet to read a post by anyone, much less an expert in the matter of isolated oils and health, that consuming it disqualifies you from being vegan. From the experts, I've heard neither exaggeration or harping on others - just the science. I use oil myself at times, and it's in some products I sometimes
buy, but I know it's not a health food by any stretch.

Some people have serious health problems and need to avoid it. Some people want to avoid health problems so avoid it. Some people, on the other hand, seem to get super triggered whenever the health of oil is brought up. There is no super elite vegan oil free club, if you're worried about it - so at the very least respect other's decisions without making all kinds of unsubstantiated claims about their motives for being vegan AND avoiding oil.

 

[Blissful]

As for me , l am a vegan for ethical reasons , so the health / oil debate can rage on around me , and l have no attachment to the "rightness " or "wrongness" of it ..
I use a bit of olive oil in roasting vegies , and a small amount for stir-fry and similar .. I still , however , have a healthier diet than 99% of people l know ..

Love and Light to all . xxoo

 

[Tadpole]

Oils should be avoided at all costs. The consumption of extracted/processed (refined or unrefined) oils of any kind has been undoubtedly linked to high cholesterol levels by a myriad of research institutes.
The reason that Mediterranean and Japanese cultures have such longevity and low incidence of heart disease is due to their diet of oily fish, nothing else.
Jeez to justify a pro-oil stance by saying that everyone deserves their french fries is just crazy! what are you on.

 

[kelli]

I eat lots of coconut oil.

 

[TofuRobot]

The reason that Mediterranean and Japanese cultures have such longevity and low incidence of heart disease is due to their diet of oily fish, nothing else

I believe that it's due to the fact that they eat a lot of vegetables. A friend who went to Italy recently noted all of the markets filled with vegetables. It was actually difficult to find a fish stand, when you would've thought that there'd be fish all over the place. ...Also, Dr. Greger has stated something along those lines as well. People (the media) have skewed what a Mediterranean diet actually is, very likely for the purpose of selling oil as "food." ...When oil grows on trees, I'll eat oil on purpose. But really - Whether or not someone eats oil doesn't matter much to me (unless you're a family member). It's totally personal choice, unlike eating animals. I choose not to eat oil simply because it's not a whole food, and prevention is at the core of my concerns due to what I've personally witness, experienced, and read. Obviously vegan doesn't really have anything to do with a whole food diet or not, but I don't think it's inappropriate to discuss, since there are also a lot of vegan who do happen to be what I call 'whole food vegans.' It's not wrong for a vegan to care about their health. It's my personal opinion that these things go hand in hand, but I understand not everyone agrees with that. If people want to go "crazy" with their oil, it's completely fine by me! Have at it. I'll be over in the minimally-occupied oil-free corner, chowing down on avocados.

 

[keizerman93]

I found a very good article which explains the problem of refined and extra virgin oils. No regulation regarding this topic, there are only guidelines; they state that everyone can say it is extra virgin oil (like avocado oil is a 100% extracted from the avocado) but is really a refined oil with 80% sunflower oil and just 20% avocado oil! Interesting...

Article can be found here: https://solidvegan.com/blog-2/

 

[Forest Nymph]

Oils should be avoided at all costs. The consumption of extracted/processed (refined or unrefined) oils of any kind has been undoubtedly linked to high cholesterol levels by a myriad of research institutes.
The reason that Mediterranean and Japanese cultures have such longevity and low incidence of heart disease is due to their diet of oily fish, nothing else.
Jeez to justify a pro-oil stance by saying that everyone deserves their french fries is just crazy! what are you on.

I'm "on" board with more people becoming vegan. You're not going to achieve anything close to world veganism or even majority vegetarian by telling people they can't eat things like french fries. I'm interested in real life and real results, not an unachievable ideal.

 

[Sax]

Literally nobody is saying you have to quit oil to be a vegan.

And literally nobody is choosing not to go vegan because they think they'd have to quit oil.

This reminds me of the "you can't call it plant milk because people will be confused" argument. It only makes sense if you think people are really dumb. Which...okay, this thread makes sense now.

Really though, sharing accurate information on health and diet isn't an obstacle to growing veganism.

 

[Tadpole]

I believe that it's due to the fact that they eat a lot of vegetables. A friend who went to Italy recently noted all of the markets filled with vegetables. It was actually difficult to find a fish stand, when you would've thought that there'd be fish all over the place. ...Also, Dr. Greger has stated something along those lines as well. People (the media) have skewed what a Mediterranean diet actually is, very likely for the purpose of selling oil as "food." ...When oil grows on trees, I'll eat oil on purpose. But really - Whether or not someone eats oil doesn't matter much to me (unless you're a family member). It's totally personal choice, unlike eating animals. I choose not to eat oil simply because it's not a whole food, and prevention is at the core of my concerns due to what I've personally witness, experienced, and read. Obviously vegan doesn't really have anything to do with a whole food diet or not, but I don't think it's inappropriate to discuss, since there are also a lot of vegan who do happen to be what I call 'whole food vegans.' It's not wrong for a vegan to care about their health. It's my personal opinion that these things go hand in hand, but I understand not everyone agrees with that. If people want to go "crazy" with their oil, it's completely fine by me! Have at it. I'll be over in the minimally-occupied oil-free corner, chowing down on avocados.

With all respect I can tell you from first hand experience that throughout the Mediterranean countries I have lived in, the vast majority rely heavily on fish and refined plant oils (mainly olive oil). I'm referring to Greece/Greek Isles, Spain, Turkey, Southern Italy and Sicily. A reliance on plant based diets has unfortunately not reached many of these. The American media may skew the dietary habits of this region, but from being closer to the source there is no doubt over which foods are most heavily consumed, and it is certainly not vegetarian or vegan.

 

[Tadpole]

I'm "on" board with more people becoming vegan. You're not going to achieve anything close to world veganism or even majority vegetarian by telling people they can't eat things like french fries. I'm interested in real life and real results, not an unachievable ideal.

Laughable. World veganism is the most unrealistic, discriminatory and least likely outcome to ever transpire in our lifetime, and is so far removed from real life it is unbelievable. To expect such fantasy is akin to Islam achieving world domination. Tell me do you believe that prominent western nations can give up their entrenched "Christian values" to become largely Muslim?? and you're talking about unachievable ideals.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Literally nobody is saying you have to quit oil to be a vegan.

And literally nobody is choosing not to go vegan because they think they'd have to quit oil.

This reminds me of the "you can't call it plant milk because people will be confused" argument. It only makes sense if you think people are really dumb. Which...okay, this thread makes sense now.

Really though, sharing accurate information on health and diet isn't an obstacle to growing veganism.

I contest that it's actually not entirely accurate. I keep seeing people say that oil is never healthy, and even Tadpole up there saying that in the Mediterranean people eat a lot of fish and refined oils.

I am going to be working on a project where the end goal is to get more people to eat a plant based diet for environmental reasons. In some cases that may only mean lacto-vegetarian, but I can tell you I will have a much easier time swaying the general public if I'm not cornering them with what they already think is a restrictive diet ("vegans eat grass and flowers") and then telling them to skip veggie burgers and salad dressings on top of it. Especially since it's extremely possible that they have valid medical science which shows that people in the Mediterranean, the Japanese, and lacto-vegetarians are living as long or longer than oil-free vegans.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Laughable. World veganism is the most unrealistic, discriminatory and least likely outcome to ever transpire in our lifetime, and is so far removed from real life it is unbelievable. To expect such fantasy is akin to Islam achieving world domination. Tell me do you believe that prominent western nations can give up their entrenched "Christian values" to become largely Muslim?? and you're talking about unachievable ideals.

Academically I'll use the term plant-based. Discriminatory? Hardly.

 

[Tadpole]

You didn't address the most important question. Head down to Texas and preach your intolerance of their deeply held beliefs? Not going to cut it, no contest.
Your use of the word academically cannot be taken seriously.
I'm sure however that you were never vegetarian not so long ago, or god forbid a carnist? Could not be so from your current rhetoric.

 

[Tadpole]

You do make a valid point that equally opposing evidence exists for longevity stemming from non vegan diets, in spite of whatever evidence you may possess. Totally agree. This is why tolerance and open mindedness will always prevail over the ignorance that other beliefs cannot exist alongside your own, which can be narrowminded.

 

[Nekodaiden]

I contest that it's actually not entirely accurate. I keep seeing people say that oil is never healthy, and even Tadpole up there saying that in the Mediterranean people eat a lot of fish and refined oils.

Read the studies quoted here: https://ucdintegrativemedicine.com/2016/05/why-you-should-opt-out-of-olive-oil/#gs.92e32e

Bottom line - all isolated oils impair endothelial function. In terms of overall health effects, they are better than animal fats, but they still do harm. Fiber mitigates harm to a degree, but they still do harm.

I am going to be working on a project where the end goal is to get more people to eat a plant based diet for environmental reasons. In some cases that may only mean lacto-vegetarian, but I can tell you I will have a much easier time swaying the general public if I'm not cornering them with what they already think is a restrictive diet ("vegans eat grass and flowers") and then telling them to skip veggie burgers and salad dressings on top of it. Especially since it's extremely possible that they have valid medical science which shows that people in the Mediterranean, the Japanese, and lacto-vegetarians are living as long or longer than oil-free vegans.

I think you make too many assumptions about your audience. There will be people there that know very little about vegan diets and health in general, and there will be people more knowledgeable. I know meat eaters that limit or eliminate refined sugar, watch fried food intake and read labels
on dressing bottles. If you come to your presentations ignoring studies like those included in the above this will be less effective to people who know
better. Dressings and veggie burgers can be made without oil, why not increase your knowledge in how that can be done without assuming everyone is operating from a "don't know/don't care" attitude regarding health.

 

[Tadpole]

Read the studies quoted here: https://ucdintegrativemedicine.com/2016/05/why-you-should-opt-out-of-olive-oil/#gs.92e32e

Bottom line - all isolated oils impair endothelial function. In terms of overall health effects, they are better than animal fats, but they still do harm. Fiber mitigates harm to a degree, but they still do harm.



I think you make too many assumptions about your audience. There will be people there that know very little about vegan diets and health in general, and there will be people more knowledgeable. I know meat eaters that limit or eliminate refined sugar, watch fried food intake and read labels
on dressing bottles. If you come to your presentations ignoring studies like those included in the above this will be less effective to people who know
better. Dressings and veggie burgers can be made without oil, why not increase your knowledge in how that can be done without assuming everyone is operating from a "don't know/don't care" attitude regarding health.

I agree. Presenting a distorted version of through the assumption that the target demographic are ignorant is quite patronising and actually deceptive. You really should not do this. It also would indicate a lack of belief in the integrity of your hypotheses. Encouraging more people to become passionate about plant based diets based on a more grounded reality is more effective, as apposed to pretty much giving them the comfort to hold onto previous habits.

 

[Emma JC]

As I wrote in a separate thread... https://www.veganforum.org/threads/a-little-disappointed-in-cholesterol-test-results.3807/page-2

All fats including nuts, avocados, oils, animal fats, affect our arteries. The healthier and younger you are the less immediate effect it has on you.

I watched an interesting YouTube, yesterday, by VegSource about nuts, specifically and it was fascinating. I will link it at the end here.

Everyone has different likes/dislikes, tolerances, strictness etc. The whole world would be better off eating whole foods, nothing processed, etc but that is not realistic or demanded. Be the best vegan you can be and then, also, decide how healthy a vegan you wish to. Those of us who are north of 50 are more inclined to cut back on oils and fats in general. Those of you that are younger have more latitude.

Emma JC

 

[Nekodaiden]

Oh hee hee...from isolated oils to nuts, I can imagine the trigger reaction reaching critical levels...

 

[Nekodaiden]

As I wrote in a separate thread... https://www.veganforum.org/threads/a-little-disappointed-in-cholesterol-test-results.3807/page-2

All fats including nuts, avocados, oils, animal fats, affect our arteries. The healthier and younger you are the less immediate effect it has on you.

I watched an interesting YouTube, yesterday, by VegSource about nuts, specifically and it was fascinating. I will link it at the end here.

Everyone has different likes/dislikes, tolerances, strictness etc. The whole world would be better off eating whole foods, nothing processed, etc but that is not realistic or demanded. Be the best vegan you can be and then, also, decide how healthy a vegan you wish to. Those of us who are north of 50 are more inclined to cut back on oils and fats in general. Those of you that are younger have more latitude.

Emma JC

I hesitated when I first saw this. I like VegSource, but it's only a single series of tests on one person(and an anecdote by Jeffs own admission). Nothing that could be called conclusive by any stretch. Besides this, the meal as presented was a purely nut - no other fiber meal, so that too made me wonder. However, heart disease patients should follow the advice of Esselstyn/Ornish regardless, as the long term research on reversing heart disease (and preventing it) is already there.