Vegans and abortion
- Thread starter peacefulveglady
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, but I also 
OP
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Also I seen something that anti abortion people refusing to adopt and foster unwanted kids. That assumption is false. Some areas of the world its hard to adopt and foster to many red tape. However no one answrred me why is it the pro lifers to adopt and foster kids? Why canāt prochoicers adopt and foster?
Sure did, and you even quoted me:
And your comment on it being hard to foster and adopt makes it even more laughable and sad that you push for creating children against women's will while not being in least bit prepared fore the outcome.There is way to many babies being aborted over foolishness. Thank you for not explaining why you support a victim in animals being slsughtered over an innocent baby. Animals does not have souls. I have held this in til now. Maybe veganism not for me. I thought veganism is for all lives not just for animals.And really,
I believe you should look up the definition of "choice"
When we who believe having babies is a womens choice ask those who oppose it how many babies they;ve taken in it's because they are the ones who want to DENY choice, so why shouldn't it be mandatory for them to take those they insist woman create? And please spare us the 'don't have sex'. What has any anti abortion movement done to prevent pregnancy? Most want to make birth control hard to obtain,with many restrictions and cost. Where is the push for male birth control? Vasectomy?
Many of these states want to enact laws that would require investigation of every miscarrage,and even deny a D&C when the baby is terminal
If a person does not want a baby do not have sex simple as that.
There will be more drug addicted babies, fetal alcohol syndrome, unloved, unwanted, hungry, abused, unhoused. And .... the women that go along with them
It terrifies me to think what it would be like to not have made that very thoughtful, deliberate, choice to have my sons.
I took it for granted that when I found I was pregnant it was my decision, and much soul searching was done as I knew that choice of what could happen in the next 9 months would change my future, would change me, my marriage, my career, everything.
I was a pretty heavy drinker, smoker, not exactly one to keep good sleep habits. Creating a healthy baby for most every woman, means changing themselves. Everything the woman does, every stress, every breath, every bite, every drink, every movement effects those cells, because those cells ARE the woman.
I can't even think of going home after finding I was in fact pregnant without having to make that choice of letting it grow. I most definitely would not have had the bond I do, or have changed myself in so many ways to have a healthy baby.
And as for "putting it up for adoption". Hormones rage in pregnancy.I've known so many families where a relative had all the arraingments for an adoption, up to having the couple in the waiting room for the birth--then changing their mind after birth. Not a rational decision. I hear stories from families because no one likes to talk negative about why they kept their baby, but their families will tell and be devasted as their lives, and the babies,suffered
It was in the midst of my pregnancy that I became 100% commited to all women having that choice, because pregnancy is never anything anyone should ever be made to go through, regardless of the circumstances that caused it.
No woman wants an abortion anymore than they want any medical procedure. The trivial few that could be said to use it as birth control is more a sad state of our lack of women's health care, and societies inequities.
I took it for granted that when I found I was pregnant it was my decision, and much soul searching was done as I knew that choice of what could happen in the next 9 months would change my future, would change me, my marriage, my career, everything.
I was a pretty heavy drinker, smoker, not exactly one to keep good sleep habits. Creating a healthy baby for most every woman, means changing themselves. Everything the woman does, every stress, every breath, every bite, every drink, every movement effects those cells, because those cells ARE the woman.
I can't even think of going home after finding I was in fact pregnant without having to make that choice of letting it grow. I most definitely would not have had the bond I do, or have changed myself in so many ways to have a healthy baby.
And as for "putting it up for adoption". Hormones rage in pregnancy.I've known so many families where a relative had all the arraingments for an adoption, up to having the couple in the waiting room for the birth--then changing their mind after birth. Not a rational decision. I hear stories from families because no one likes to talk negative about why they kept their baby, but their families will tell and be devasted as their lives, and the babies,suffered
It was in the midst of my pregnancy that I became 100% commited to all women having that choice, because pregnancy is never anything anyone should ever be made to go through, regardless of the circumstances that caused it.
No woman wants an abortion anymore than they want any medical procedure. The trivial few that could be said to use it as birth control is more a sad state of our lack of women's health care, and societies inequities.
I could give you an ongoing list of innocent lives that have been taken this year that the far right doesn't give a rats butt about.
You can your opinion of where life starts the same way fruitarians believe you should only eat fruit and the not the plant, but don't force your unsupported feeling on others
You want your far right leaning Christian friendsactually to stop trying to push their views on you, yet you support forcing not only your OPINION but making it illegal for women to have different opinions to the point of making them creators.
You have the choice whether or not to consume animal products. It's your choice. No one else makes that choice for you. That's how that works.
It though has nothing to do with anyone else' views on anything. I don't allow anyone's views on a given issue to determine what I eat. I make my own decisions and accept others doing the same.
Some on both sides of the issue adopt. Those labeling themselves as prolife should be begging to adopt and thus attempting to lessen abortions. I did answer and stated that pro choice labeled people aren't advocating to increase the number of children needing homes. If it's worth it to you, the life of a child already here, then the red tape shouldn't be an inconvenience, burden, or such.
Everyone is prochoice. The only difference is that some people want to make the decision not only for themselves but others too.
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We are talking about the unborn that is slaughtered not other lives at the moment. This is topic preventing a pregnancy while pleasuring yourself and do not care about consquences of a pregnancy. Would do people think what happens when a ***** enters a vagina? Do it occur its to produce an offspring?
As for being far right I am not even near of right wing person. I do believe that there something that needs to be done with how woman gets abortions as there are to many of them.
Abortion is murder like your qoute animals are murdered for food. By outlawing abortion it teaches woman and men to make better choices how they spend their times. Abortion should never be used has birth control.
However, I do think there should be better options out there then removing a precious small life.
I have always been highly against abortion. I been highly against womans rights. What about mans rights or the fathers rights.
Womanās rights does not cover those woman like myself struggling to conceive a baby of their own. If you can get tax payers abortions. Then woman should get tax payers aide to help her conceive a child or two. Womanās rights goes both ways.
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There's private adoption. Foster care will provide assistance for the care of the children. The 'red tape' though is there to protect the children so it has to be there. Look at all the horrifying stories when red tape lacked.
Graeme M
Forum Legend
Interesting that the debate morphed into a discussion about abortion. There is probably no generally acceptable stance regarding abortion. As far as I can comment, I think all women should have the right to an abortion if they so choose. Part of the problem of course is that many people see humans as exceptionally important and they can not countenance the idea that a human being should be killed - even a largely non-functioning, probably unaware and certainly unviable human being. This idea exaggerates the natural emotional commitment to our young and as a consequence I think many people who have an abortion later regret it.
The subject can be debated endlessly without reaching resolution but I would hope that women are extended the right to make choices about their own bodies, even if that choice is to causally abort a baby because it doesn't fit in their plans.
Me, I don't think people matter that much really. Killing an unborn child is neither here nor there, as is killing those with extremely severe disability. So I have no great feeling that life is sacrosanct and should be preserved at all costs. That is possibly one of our more obvious failings as moral agents.
The subject can be debated endlessly without reaching resolution but I would hope that women are extended the right to make choices about their own bodies, even if that choice is to causally abort a baby because it doesn't fit in their plans.
Me, I don't think people matter that much really. Killing an unborn child is neither here nor there, as is killing those with extremely severe disability. So I have no great feeling that life is sacrosanct and should be preserved at all costs. That is possibly one of our more obvious failings as moral agents.
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Its thou shall not kill or murder another human that why there is large standings against abortion.
Why would a precious baby with disabilities be aborted?
I'm strongly pro-choice but I respect that there's a good faith, philosophically consistent argument on the pro-life side. It just seems that pro-lifers often undercut that argument by simultaneously opposing sex ed, contraception, support for low income mothers etc.
I think having sentience and being capable of either positive or negative mental states is the basis for moral standing, which embryos don't have and early stage fetuses almost certainly don't either. The potential of that embryo/fetus to become a person does grant some moral standing IMO but it's outweighed by the pregnant woman's claim to her own life and body.
If pro-lifers believe moral standing comes from simply having human genetics or is granted by a mysterious celestial being it's no wonder their positions seem contradictory.
I think having sentience and being capable of either positive or negative mental states is the basis for moral standing, which embryos don't have and early stage fetuses almost certainly don't either. The potential of that embryo/fetus to become a person does grant some moral standing IMO but it's outweighed by the pregnant woman's claim to her own life and body.
If pro-lifers believe moral standing comes from simply having human genetics or is granted by a mysterious celestial being it's no wonder their positions seem contradictory.
It's possible to cryo-preserve embryos almost infinitely. In the below news story a 27-year-old embryo was thawed and then successfully developed in a woman's womb, and she then subsequently gave birth to a healthy baby. If life starts at conception, then this birth mother would be only 1-2 years older than her baby:
The facility that stores these embryos is a Christian non-profit. They estimate there were about 1 million frozen embryos in the US at the time of the article (2020).
To me, all this just confirms that it makes no sense to say life starts at conception. (We could soon have babies that are older than their birth mothers.)
The facility that stores these embryos is a Christian non-profit. They estimate there were about 1 million frozen embryos in the US at the time of the article (2020).
To me, all this just confirms that it makes no sense to say life starts at conception. (We could soon have babies that are older than their birth mothers.)
Graeme M
Forum Legend
Because babies with severe disability require lifelong care and will not enjoy the good life. I am saying that humans just aren't that important - we don't have to create, maintain and prolong the lives of people just because.
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First of Thank you for moving my posts the other topic fitted in with this.
Secondly i known alot that did not abort a handicapped unborn and they are living a wonderful life.
Its still is sad that you rather save animals lives from slaughter then an innocent life called a precious baby. Babies are a gift from God and a Blessing not a curse.
PVL, an embryo is not a baby. At 9-11 weeks the embryo becomes a fetus which starts to look like a baby, but let's face it, it's still not a baby.
If faced with an actual "save the animal or the baby" scenario, I think most vegans would still save the baby. Although such scenarios are contrived and unrealistic.
The other thing to remember is that a person advocating for animals doesn't mean they're somehow opposed to the well-being of human babies. (Though I can imagine certain unhinged Christian ministers and conservative Christian politicians might wish to portray vegans that way.)
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What does being a Christian have to do with defending innocent life? So why does people announce when they are expecting they are having a baby? Have you went to web MD and seen the stages how a baby is formed in the womb? Youāre saying that its not a baby so its to say there is nothing wrong with abortion.
I would like to act as a voice of moderation in the pro-life and pro-choice movements. I shall try to make a few observations that I hope are not controversial. I have no interest in advocating for or against the legalization of abortion. There are far wiser and more intelligent people who can debate the issue.
I grew up in a Catholic tradition. I frequently said to other Catholics that being pro-life is not necessarily about making laws to stop abortion. Being pro-life is more about making choices that reduce the likelihood of a woman being faced with making such a difficult choice. A man who wonders about experiencing unprotected sex with multiple partners is probably making a choice that could put a lady in such a difficult situation. That man might claim to be pro-life and even actively support political candidates who are pro-life. Still, in my mind, he is not pro-life. I have never met a pro-lifer who disagrees with me on this point. Being pro-life is mostly about making everyday decisions that prevent unwanted pregnancies. (Similarly, preventing animal abuse is primarily about making choices that support animal welfare such as not eating meat or not visiting Seaworld or Zoos.)
Being pro-choice or pro-life is not about making laws to increase or decrease access to abortion. As medical technology improves, ladies will have more options for having an abortion. We can introduce numerous laws to make abortion illegal. Yet, in the very long run, these laws will not be effective. Ladies will either search for a black market solution or visit a place where abortion is legal. (I am fully aware that many of these black market solutions are potentially dangerous.) Thus, from a pragmatic standpoint, the choice will always exist.
Being pro-choice is mostly about truly giving a lady autonomy over her own body. That means that couples have serious conversations about sex before they engage in intercourse. They talk about their feelings about abortion. They talk about the risk of sexually transmitted diseases. In addition, they talk honestly about their feelings towards each other. Finally, they do not use sex as a tool to manipulate each other.
Ironically, the same personal choices that give a lady autonomy over her body also reduce the likelihood of abortion. From this standpoint, a person can be pro-life and pro-choice at the same time.
I have never been in a situation where I needed to worry about making that choice to have an abortion. I chose to remain a virgin until I was married. (Please do not judge me for my choice.) In addition, my wife never had an unwanted pregnancy. I am also a man and not a woman. Thus, I am not in a position to say how that choice would feel.
I remember when my wife had a miscarriage in her fourth month of pregnancy. This event took place about 16 years ago. To this day, my wife blames herself for the miscarriage. She wonders what the baby would be like if he or she was alive today. In her own words, she says that she "killed her baby." The doctor carefully explained that there was nothing she could do to save the baby. My wife cried and cried when she had to go to the hospital to have the fetus removed from her body. I was excited when I learned that my wife was pregnant. Everyone knew within hours after she passed the pregnancy test. The loss of the baby was disappointing to me. But, I knew that she would probably be pregnant again anyway in a few months. It was no big deal to me.
I privately spoke to another older lady about my wife's situation when it happened because I had difficulty understanding why my wife was so upset. She said that my wife had a legitimate reason to feel upset. The older lady said that a church service would be appropriate in the situation. (My wife was too embarrassed to have a church service.) It taught me that I will never truly understand what it means to be a woman. I also learned that I can not tell her to have an abortion or not have an abortion. It is her choice and not mine.
I grew up in a Catholic tradition. I frequently said to other Catholics that being pro-life is not necessarily about making laws to stop abortion. Being pro-life is more about making choices that reduce the likelihood of a woman being faced with making such a difficult choice. A man who wonders about experiencing unprotected sex with multiple partners is probably making a choice that could put a lady in such a difficult situation. That man might claim to be pro-life and even actively support political candidates who are pro-life. Still, in my mind, he is not pro-life. I have never met a pro-lifer who disagrees with me on this point. Being pro-life is mostly about making everyday decisions that prevent unwanted pregnancies. (Similarly, preventing animal abuse is primarily about making choices that support animal welfare such as not eating meat or not visiting Seaworld or Zoos.)
Being pro-choice or pro-life is not about making laws to increase or decrease access to abortion. As medical technology improves, ladies will have more options for having an abortion. We can introduce numerous laws to make abortion illegal. Yet, in the very long run, these laws will not be effective. Ladies will either search for a black market solution or visit a place where abortion is legal. (I am fully aware that many of these black market solutions are potentially dangerous.) Thus, from a pragmatic standpoint, the choice will always exist.
Being pro-choice is mostly about truly giving a lady autonomy over her own body. That means that couples have serious conversations about sex before they engage in intercourse. They talk about their feelings about abortion. They talk about the risk of sexually transmitted diseases. In addition, they talk honestly about their feelings towards each other. Finally, they do not use sex as a tool to manipulate each other.
Ironically, the same personal choices that give a lady autonomy over her body also reduce the likelihood of abortion. From this standpoint, a person can be pro-life and pro-choice at the same time.
I have never been in a situation where I needed to worry about making that choice to have an abortion. I chose to remain a virgin until I was married. (Please do not judge me for my choice.) In addition, my wife never had an unwanted pregnancy. I am also a man and not a woman. Thus, I am not in a position to say how that choice would feel.
I remember when my wife had a miscarriage in her fourth month of pregnancy. This event took place about 16 years ago. To this day, my wife blames herself for the miscarriage. She wonders what the baby would be like if he or she was alive today. In her own words, she says that she "killed her baby." The doctor carefully explained that there was nothing she could do to save the baby. My wife cried and cried when she had to go to the hospital to have the fetus removed from her body. I was excited when I learned that my wife was pregnant. Everyone knew within hours after she passed the pregnancy test. The loss of the baby was disappointing to me. But, I knew that she would probably be pregnant again anyway in a few months. It was no big deal to me.
I privately spoke to another older lady about my wife's situation when it happened because I had difficulty understanding why my wife was so upset. She said that my wife had a legitimate reason to feel upset. The older lady said that a church service would be appropriate in the situation. (My wife was too embarrassed to have a church service.) It taught me that I will never truly understand what it means to be a woman. I also learned that I can not tell her to have an abortion or not have an abortion. It is her choice and not mine.
