Nutrition & Diet Vegan-friendly diets

[Graeme M]

I'm interested to see what other members think about the vegan-friendly diet - what is it?

In conversations elsewhere I've run into the odd argument that if you cannot obtain suitable plant-sourced alternatives for your food (eg living somewhere that food is scarce, traditional cultures, jail, some odd physical issues such as allergies to pulses), you are not allowed to eat anything animal-sourced to assure your health and wellbeing. If you do, you aren't vegan.

Here's my take on it. Anyone who adopts veganism (or what I call vegan ethics) because they think animals matter enough will make a bonafide effort to replace animal-sourced foods with plant-sourced alternatives. Most vegans are likely able to do that. But if for some reason someone can't do that, then they can include animal-sourced foods. They should still seek to be guided by vegan ethics to the maximum extent they can. So the hierarchy of choice might go like this:

A. Buy/source plant options
B. Buy/source as much plant foods as possible, but include animal-sourced foods where production systems come as close to vegan ideals as possible
C. Buy/source as much plant foods as possible, but include animal-sourced foods where production systems come as close to vegan ideals as possible, and if that has to be from CAFO systems that's acceptable.

People doing either B or C are not vegans, but they ARE being guided by vegan ethics as much as they can in their circumstances.

What do you think?

 

[pear]

I pretty much agree with you. It seems like, for the sake of community, reserving the vegan title for those who forgo animal products is the right move.

That said, I recognize that it's complicated. There are legitimate reasons why someone might not be able to practically discontinue their consumption of all animal products, as you mentioned. Plant-based diets are only economical in about half of the world. Food deserts are prevalent, cultural traditions exist, resources are limited, and education is currently substandard in making veganism accessible. These things don't disqualify anyone from living ethically. But it's hard enough to disentangle these kinds of issues from personal choice that it feels fruitless to try. I think our efforts are better used in simply trying to improve things to the point where everyone does have the option to go vegan.

The onus is on us to get there. It's fantastic if people are acting ethically in their circumstances, regardless of it being "vegan".

 

[MichaelHauer]

I agree. But I am curious as to the claim that:

“Plant-based diets are only economical in about half of the world.”

Where does this info come from?

 

[pear]

I agree. But I am curious as to the claim that:

“Plant-based diets are only economical in about half of the world.”

Where does this info come from?

https://doi.org/10.1016/S2542-5196(21)00251-5
https://doi.org/10.1016/S2214-109X(19)30447-4

These studies are somewhat dense. They do both have optimistic outlooks for making plant-based diets economical for everyone, but only with continued investment and food system improvement. Part of the work we must do, in my view.

 

[MichaelHauer]

Thanks for sending those links - I’ll take a look.

 

[MichaelHauer]

I’ve just had a first look at the essays. The ‘conclusions’ are, as they insist, not ‘conclusive’. It seems that the issue lies partly in the fact that meat products are very cheap in “high income countries” - and eating vegetables is even cheaper, and animal meat is far less affordable in “low income countries” - but the catch seems to be that if these low income areas improve general food affordability people will opt for consuming more meat.

Anecdotally, I lived in Sudan (what is happening there now is beyond tragic) for a while - during the ‘live aid’ efforts to combat the situation in next-door Ethiopia/Eritrea. In Khartoum, one could buy amazing foods on the streets and in the cafes - but a new fancy (independent) burger bar had just opened - and the queues were significant… even though it was so expensive, and the food there was AWFUL. Eating meat in civilisations has always been an indication/badge of wealth.

I think that vegans should concentrate on their own locations in the advocacy for change. That is, I think we should push for ‘ ‘alternatives’ in our own regions, and not try to involve ourselves in other areas - something that is beyond our means anyway, as well as being an exercise in futility.

There is a lot of more sustainable eating culture going on around the world in ‘low income countries’ - eg Ethiopia and parts of India - but I’m not an expert. And vegan initiatives and ‘movements’ are also spread around.

The point - for me, and you (?), that is, people on this forum - is to try to help to change the culture within the powerhouses of the global economy, in the countries in which we live.

It is the ‘high income countries’ that consume the greatest number of animals, and the global trade in animals and meat is driven by those same countries.

If the food culture can be changed in the ‘high income countries’ - which include places like China, which is simultaneously investing in 27 storey pig farms and alternative proteins - then there will be a massive knock-on effect globally.

The initiatives around cellular meat and precision fermentation are crucial here (if there is time left). There is a thread on here that puts vegconomist magazine up - I find that mag somewhat inspiring.

So, I think those essays should not fill one with gloom or a feeling that the mountain is too high to climb.

 

[allindogecoin]

I find it hard to believe a vegan diet is expensive especially seeing the cost of beef compared to the cost of lentils, but that is just based on where I live.

 

[MichaelHauer]

You are right. The idea that a vegan diet - anywhere in the world - is more expensive than one that includes the purchase of meat products is a lie.

 

[Tom L.]

I wish to comment on the comparative expense of vegan diets as compared to diets including meat (i.e., "omni").

For matters of health, even omni diets should include vegetables and fruits- and I've noticed that the cost of these has been rising. But I think the main difference between omni and vegan diets seems to be where we get much of our calories and protein. Omni diets include carbs and sugars, but they have far less of these on the average than vegan diets. Vegan diets rely more on grains and legumes- and for the calories and protein you get, these are generally much less costly than meat. (One obvious exception, which I've mentioned elsewhere, is the veggie burger).

 

[pear]

You are right. The idea that a vegan diet - anywhere in the world - is more expensive than one that includes the purchase of meat products is a lie.

This is just not true. Although a global food system optimized for plant-based diets would be significantly more economical than our current one, it is simply the case that the least-cost nutritionally sufficient diets in many places (mostly lower-middle and low-income) contain animal products. In addition to the studies I linked, others have done optimization studies for nutrient equivalence:

https://www.worldbank.org/en/programs/icp/brief/foodpricesfornutrition
https://doi.org/10.1186/s12937-024-01068-3

It may be true that the reasons for this are complicated and resistant to straightforward change (economic inertia, subsidies, global market pressures, agriculture infrastructure, lack of antitrust enforcement, culture, education, etc.), but that does not change the reality of the situation, nor does it absolve us of the responsibility to change it. We are a long way from a vegan world.

That said, there are fewer barriers for those of us in higher-income areas. Plant-based diets are cheaper. Policy and culture are things we can more readily affect without that economic burden. Yes, I realize I'm mostly preaching to the choir on this

 

[MichaelHauer]

It sounds like you are kind of putting ‘the cart before the horse’ here? (See my initial comments.) Yes we are a long way from a vegan world (and I would not advocate it for the ‘uncontacted tribes’ - who hunt but live in harmony with their environment - see Survival International) - but this is especially in the higher income countries. But - ironically perhaps - it is from these countries that the change, globally, might happen. Again, we shouldn’t be thinking globally as this makes the mountain far too high to climb in our heads and therefore is dispiriting.

 

[MichaelHauer]

I looked at the links - thanks for finding and sending. I still think that maybe this is a ‘distraction’ that is potentially harmful for our positivity and hope - as in, kinda: ‘it’s all too much, there’s no point doing anything’. (See my first comment.)

Firstly, I think that the vegan ‘movement’ we are part of is only a helpful lever for entrepreneurial, scientific, and agricultural change. Veganism will not ‘win’ via the moral crusade that we have embarked on - the world doesn’t work like that - but our crusade is still useful. Veganism will ‘win’ when animal agriculture loses it economic superiority. (I’m thinking again here, specifically, about precision fermentation and cellular meat - have you read the book ‘Regenesis’ by George Monbiot?)

I also think it’s not our ‘job’ to tell people in other countries - particularly ‘low income’ ones - how to eat, that’s for them to work out. But we can oppose cruel and highly unsustainable practices in fellow ‘high income’ countries - so, for example, I can sign petitions, protest, etc, the tuna and dolphin massacres in Japan, though I don’t live there. People like me protesting such things puts pressure on. But if I intervened in the French West Indies that would be a little pointless.

Another thing that concerns me is around the ‘obsession’ for protein. Most of the history of this has been generated by the agriculture industry to sell more animal products.

I’m not vegan for my health, btw, but from what I see from dietary guidelines that are part of the same culture that supports industrialise animal use it is virtually impossible to consume all the supposedly necessary nutrients, minerals, aminos, etc that one apparently needs to consume each day/week. (And isn’t it true, other considerations aside, that people who eat less are generally healthier and live longer?)

 

[MichaelHauer]

You (essentially) say that improving the food systems and affordability in ‘low income’ countries is:

“Part of the work we must do, in my view.”

Which I’ve been thinking about… are you involved in global policy making and/or lobbying etc (? - not sure of the right terms) in your employment?

In which case your argument comes under a different light. As in, you are already affecting governmental and global trends etc? (I’m just a bus driver hahaha)

 

[Tom L.]

I’m not vegan for my health, btw, but from what I see from dietary guidelines that are part of the same culture that supports industrialise animal use it is virtually impossible to consume all the supposedly necessary nutrients, minerals, aminos, etc that one apparently needs to consume each day/week. (And isn’t it true, other considerations aside, that people who eat less are generally healthier and live longer?)

(your post only partially quoted- bold emphasis mine) Over the past 2 or 3 years, I've been thinking about that. I've been tracking my vitamin D and calcium intake, and unless I supplement with pills/tablets, I don't think I would be able to meet the currently-advised RDAs for these on a vegan diet. (Please understand I don't have a problem with supplements: they're an economical, ethical, and effective way for me to safeguard my health. But I believe the only ones I need are those two and vitamin B-12).

 

[MichaelHauer]

Yeah, I don’t have any advice to give about ‘healthy eating’ for humans as I’m not interested in it (I would be if we had a new child, but that’s not happening at this stage of our lives). If you’re happy with what you’re eating (including taking supplements) then that’s great. But people who are not vegan generally appear to fail to meet the RDAs and live for years. I don’t have a problem with supplements either, but I don’t take any, and I often read that they don’t work anyway.

I understand, though, that if one has health issues then trying to eat to one’s benefit in terms of health is a priority of course. But, for me, I like to eat what I like (lots of different things - I make my own sauerkraut, for example) because that’s what makes me happy in terms of eating. However, I could probably do with eating a little less and exercising a little more haha. Eating is a happy thing for me - and has been an even happier experience since I went vegan. But, again, that’s just me… so I’m not much use in a conversation about ‘healthy eating’.