To all the women in affected US states-New abortion laws.

Sax

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You don't have to weigh it against the woman's suffering if you acknowledge the fetus is innocent in this situation. It didn't ask to be put there. Actions taken by others put it there.

Who is at fault for the situation matters.

Being cruel to the innocent to protect the interests of some of those responsible for putting the innocent fetus in that situation in the first place... does that sound ethical? Does that sound like justice? Those who think we should weigh the suffering of the fetus against the suffering of the woman apparently seem to think so.

Everyone agrees its best to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place. People who are pro-choice are strongly in favor of sex education and access to contraceptives. Empowering women to have control over their reproductive health is the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

But expecting that to prevent all unwanted pregnancies isn't realistic. Even a woman who always uses contraceptives can get pregnant. Should her interests and her suffering be dismissed as well? What about the family struggling to provide for the children they already have? Should those kids grow up getting less attention and resources from their parents?

In my mid 20s my girlfriend stopped taking her birth control without telling me and ended up pregnant. We talked it over and she got an abortion. Should I have been forced to father a child I didn't want and wasn't ready for?

What about women who are raped and children who are molested?

Pro lifers aren't interested in weighing the suffering and hardship resulting from forced birth against anything because they aren't trying to resolve a moral dilemma. They're trying to force their absolutist views on the rest of society.
 

vegan89

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Everyone agrees its best to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
I agree - there is no ethical problem with birth control, condoms, etc. I don't think anyone (not here, at least) is trying to say people should become involuntarily pregnant.
Empowering women to have control over their reproductive health is the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
"Empowering women to have control over their reproductive health" -- meaning to make abortion legal whenever people want it regardless of how developed the fetus is? That doesn't prevent an unwanted pregnancy... it simply allows women to destroy the fetus after the unwanted pregnancy happens.

What would prevent unwanted pregnancies is if the people participating in sexual activity took responsibility for their behavior and used contraceptives.

But expecting that to prevent all unwanted pregnancies isn't realistic. Even a woman who always uses contraceptives can get pregnant. Should her interests and her suffering be dismissed as well?

Just use enough different types of contraceptives that you aren't worried about the risk of an unwanted pregnancy. There are a lot of different types of contraceptives out there, and when using multiple methods at the same time the risk of an unwanted pregnancy is extremely low.

There's also stuff like this:

And then there's abstinence - a way to prevent pregnancy that never fails whenever it is used.

Nobody is forcing parenthood on you by putting regulations on when abortions can take place.

In my mid 20s my girlfriend stopped taking her birth control without telling me and ended up pregnant. We talked it over and she got an abortion. Should I have been forced to father a child I didn't want and wasn't ready for?

That's an interesting question. With legal abortion, women have the ability to decide whether or not they want to be parents in cases of unexpected pregnancies. But in the case of an unexpected pregnancy... whether a man becomes a parent or not often depends on what the woman decides in the question of whether or not to have an abortion.

Why aren't the "women shouldn't be forced to be mothers" people complaining about that? If they think women shouldn't be forced into motherhood in cases of unwanted pregnancies, why do they think men should be forced to become fathers depending on what the woman decides (in cases of unwanted pregnancy)?

What about women who are raped and children who are molested?
In a previous comment I made clear I was discussing the morality of abortions involving sex without any form of coercion or rape.

Pro lifers aren't interested in weighing the suffering and hardship resulting from forced birth against anything because they aren't trying to resolve a moral dilemma. They're trying to force their absolutist views on the rest of society.
Not sure if this is directed at me, but I don't have absolutist views given I suggested cases involving rape should be treated differently. You can't really be an "absolutist" if you think there should be exceptions.
 
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Mikkel

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Don’t like abortions, don’t have one. Stop pushing your beliefs on others.

Start also to care about all the kids in foster care, that need to be adopted, that are homeless, that live on the streets, that are shot and killed at school. Pro lifers are often more concerned about a 2 days old lump of cell than a kid in need.
 

vegan89

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Don’t like abortions, don’t have one. Stop pushing your beliefs on others.
There is nothing wrong with passing laws to achieve better ethical conduct and attempt to create a more just and humane world. "Stop pushing your beliefs on others" is the type of thing those who selfishly consume animal products to please themselves would say when vegans criticize them for causing animal suffering with their dietary choices.

Start also to care about all the kids in foster care, that need to be adopted, that are homeless, that live on the streets, that are shot and killed at school. Pro lifers are often more concerned about a 2 days old lump of cell than a kid in need.
The number shot and killed at school is pretty small relative to the number of abortions. People think those kinds of mass shootings are much more common than they really are because of media drama/hype.

It's a bit like how society spent vast amounts of money fighting terrorism after the 9/11 attacks. Yes, the planes flying into the buildings was tragic and dramatic. But given there are a much greater number killed by preventable mundane and less dramatic things like car accidents, people's concerns were arguably misplaced... and the media drama/hype contributed to that problem.

Your claim that pro-lifers don't care about children shot at school is also pretty ridiculous. The people you criticize have their own solutions for that issue... they simply are different than yours. That doesn't make them bad people. They just have a different opinion.
 
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Mikkel

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Media hype up and make drama over kid being shot and killed at schools. Thanks for proving my point.

Religion and control women….
 
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Calliegirl

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The woman who made this short (16 minute) Black Mirror style film, originally made it when there was a chance of Roe vs Wade being overturned, and it's even more frightening now that it has happened.
Warning: It's NSFW and is age restricted on Youtube.
 
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silva

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There is nothing wrong with passing laws to achieve better ethical conduct and attempt to create a more just and humane world. "Stop pushing your beliefs on others" is the type of thing those who selfishly consume animal products to please themselves would say when vegans criticize them for causing animal suffering with their dietary choices.


The number shot and killed at school is pretty small relative to the number of abortions. People think those kinds of mass shootings are much more common than they really are because of media drama/hype.

It's a bit like how society spent vast amounts of money fighting terrorism after the 9/11 attacks. Yes, the planes flying into the buildings was tragic and dramatic. But given there are a much greater number killed by preventable mundane and less dramatic things like car accidents, people's concerns were arguably misplaced... and the media drama/hype contributed to that problem.

Your claim that pro-lifers don't care about children shot at school is also pretty ridiculous. The people you criticize have their own solutions for that issue... they simply are different than yours. That doesn't make them bad people. They just have a different opinion.
You truly make do prove the case that this is nothing but taking away a womans right to her own body.
A fetus is just that -- part of a womans body.
You know nothing of birth control, and think it's fine to suggest taking in unapproved ways
As for men having rights to the growth of the fetus? Men don't know whether they're fathers or not unless there is a dna test done. They don't even have a question unless a woman tells them they are, and still won't know unless it is proven. There are men who've raised children thinking falsely they are the father,there are men who have multiple children they've never been aware of fathered.
Men don't get sick, don't have hormonal changes, don't need dr's visits, aren't at risk for any of the things a pregnancy can cause. they don't need time off work, don't need to ask to be given other job duties since they are pregnant, don't face discrimination, don't worry about whether the plans they've made will have to be changed. Men don't have anything to do with the fetus's growth. If you ask me, they need to pay for every penny of the pregnancy IF the woman choses to continue it. Know what? If they don't want that responsibility they should use protection ( yeah, kinda sarcastic here..,.)
In other words, a pregnancy is a womans issue.
A fetus is the same whether it's from rape, whether from consentual sex with or without protection, in a fully grown woman or a small child.
Regardless of anything, the issue is that a woman has a right to decide what happens to HER body

This entire case involves stripping rights, and they have made it certain it's about more than abortion

I feel I am far more pro-life than those who wish to take us back to the 50's
 

Lou

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The woman who made this short (16 minute) Black Mirror style film, originally made it when there was a chance of Roe vs Wade being overturned, and it's even more frightening now that it has happened.
Warning: It's NSFW and is age restricted on Youtube.
Just watched it.
one detail that I think I interpreted correctly and made a good point that could be overlooked. It seems like the men have a birth control operation - but Theo didn't have one - and that he didn't have one was on his profile but Jade overlooked it. No matter whose fault it was - the woman pays the price.
 

Calliegirl

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Just watched it.
one detail that I think I interpreted correctly and made a good point that could be overlooked. It seems like the men have a birth control operation - but Theo didn't have one - and that he didn't have one was on his profile but Jade overlooked it. No matter whose fault it was - the woman pays the price.
He admitted that he lied on his profile about having one when she told him she was pregnant. He said you don't get matches if you tell the truth. I think that VDD means they had a vasectomy.
 

Lou

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He admitted that he lied on his profile about having one when she told him she was pregnant. He said you don't get matches if you tell the truth. I think that VDD means they had a vasectomy.
Oh, I thought the red slash thing meant he hadn't gotten one.
no, wait. I think it makes more sense that he hadn't lied on his profile. the way IA worked with Jade - doesn't seem like you Could lie on your profile.
 

Calliegirl

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Oh, I thought the red slash thing meant he hadn't gotten one.
no, wait. I think it makes more sense that he hadn't lied on his profile. the way IA worked with Jade - doesn't seem like you Could lie on your profile.
I actually missed it the first time when I saw comments mentioning he lied and I was wondering how they knew that. I watched it again and it was mentioned during their meeting. On her profile I saw IUD with a slash through it, so he knew she wasn't using birth control.
 

vegan89

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You truly make do prove the case that this is nothing but taking away a womans right to her own body.
A fetus is just that -- part of a womans body.

A fetus perhaps begins as part of a woman's body, but it is obviously developing into a separate individual. And obviously it becomes a separate individual consciousness with the capacity to experience pain prior to birth.

You know nothing of birth control, and think it's fine to suggest taking in unapproved ways
Where did I suggest taking birth control in unapproved ways?
Men don't know whether they're fathers or not unless there is a dna test done. They don't even have a question unless a woman tells them they are, and still won't know unless it is proven. There are men who've raised children thinking falsely they are the father
Yes, there are lots of women out there who will go and sleep around... then when they get pregnant tell the husband "it's yours." This doesn't help your argument at all.
Men don't [...] don't face discrimination

Apart from problems from discriminatory affirmative action policies, women are not required to register with selective service and get drafted like men are.

If you think this is a small distinction, you clearly have never experienced the horrors and suffering of war.

Men don't have anything to do with the fetus's growth. If you ask me, they need to pay for every penny of the pregnancy IF the woman choses to continue it.
So you don't think women should be forced to be mothers in the event of an unexpected pregnancy, but you think men should be forced to be fathers in such cases if the woman decides that should happen.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Know what? If they don't want that responsibility they should use protection ( yeah, kinda sarcastic here..,.)

Well if women are worried about needing an abortion, they can just use contraceptives.

In other words, a pregnancy is a womans issue.

It's not exclusively a woman's issue if there is a separate consciousness developing inside the woman, because that would mean there are at least two parties involved. And if men are required to pay 18 years worth of child support, it also should not be considered exclusively a woman's issue either.

A fetus is the same whether it's from rape, whether from consentual sex with or without protection, in a fully grown woman or a small child.

Yes, but what's different in the case of rape is that the woman is not at fault for the situation she's in... unlike cases where she consents to getting pregnant (or at least to the risk of getting pregnant, in the event she's using contraceptives).

The fact the woman is not at fault for being pregnant in cases involving rape is the reason many favor exceptions to allow abortion in cases of rape...

Regardless of anything, the issue is that a woman has a right to decide what happens to HER body

A woman using drugs, masturbating, or voluntarily involving herself in prostitution are examples of a woman doing what she wants with her own body.

A woman who pays a doctor to butcher a fetus (capable of experiencing pain) inside of her is a woman doing what she wants with someone else's body.

I find it ironic that the European Women's Lobby has a history of saying "my body, my choice" in abortion debates, yet also supported the criminalization of prostitution. Hypocrites.
 
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Emma JC

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Fact: abortion only became an issue when conservatives realized that it may make a great political issue and more importantly a fundraising tactic , back in the Reagan era

Fact: the Southern Baptist did not have a problem with it in the past

The following is a very powerful video from Frank Schaeffer who's father was Francis Shaeffer a huge star in the evangelical world... watch it and weep as it is all a power/money issue, even Billy Graham was pro-choice!! The fundraising tactic is explained clearly here (fundraising not just for politicians but for the TV evangelical preachers). I can confirm that evangelicals did not vote back in the 70's and 80's and that still holds today unless they are radical right-wing evangelicals. My family did not vote and no one in our local and national church did either. "God will elect the person he wishes to be in power". Interesting point in this video is the Jimmy Carter is an evangelical Christian and the first president to be such and because he was such a decent human being he was not to be tolerated!!! It is why I left the fold so many years ago, the hypocrisy is intolerable. Carter was/is compassionate, pro-choice, not a racist, believed in integration, increased voter rights or, in other words, pro-democracy.


Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com
 
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Sax

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What would prevent unwanted pregnancies is if the people participating in sexual activity took responsibility for their behavior and used contraceptives.

Of course we should all strive for that. But even if everyone was always that responsible no contraception is 100% effective. And how realistic do you think it is to expect everyone to always behave responsibly?

I've read that half of abortions are given to women under 25. So we're expecting people who's brains are still developing, who are inherently less capable of impulse control, to resist their strongest biological urges in the heat of the moment. We are biologically designed to engage in behaviors that lead to pregnancy. Expecting teenagers and young adults to always make responsible choices in spite of that is naive.

But you already know that isn't a solution. It's just heaping blame on women who have to make a painful decision.

As for multiple forms of contraception, yeah that's a great idea. I have no doubt pro-lifers would raise the standard of responsibility as high as necessary to cast enough blame on pregnant women to justify ignoring their suffering.

That's an interesting question. With legal abortion, women have the ability to decide whether or not they want to be parents in cases of unexpected pregnancies. But in the case of an unexpected pregnancy... whether a man becomes a parent or not often depends on what the woman decides in the question of whether or not to have an abortion.

Why aren't the "women shouldn't be forced to be mothers" people complaining about that? If they think women shouldn't be forced into motherhood in cases of unwanted pregnancies, why do they think men should be forced to become fathers depending on what the woman decides (in cases of unwanted pregnancy)?

Well obviously a man shouldn't be able to force a woman to get an abortion. Perhaps the man could avoid the legal and financial responsibilities of being a father in that case, but I think that would result in some pretty bad societal outcomes having even more kids raised without fathers on a single mother's income. The costs to a child only having the love and resources of a single parent throughout their life absolutely dwarfs the costs experienced by a fetus during abortion...especially considering the vast majority of abortions happen when a fetus is probably incapable of experiencing anything.

Not sure if this is directed at me, but I don't have absolutist views given I suggested cases involving rape should be treated differently. You can't really be an "absolutist" if you think there should be exceptions.

Yeah I was speaking more about the pro-life movement as a whole. I know many if not most pro-lifers support exceptions for rape and incest but it seems the more extreme pro-lifers are feeling emboldened and actual laws are being passed without such exceptions. The entire pro-life movement should be held responsible for that until they forcefully push back against it.
 

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A fetus perhaps begins as part of a woman's body, but it is obviously developing into a separate individual. And obviously it becomes a separate individual consciousness with the capacity to experience pain prior to birth.
They can't feel pain until approximately the 30th week at which point abortions are only done if the mother's life is in danger.

 

vegan89

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They can't feel pain until approximately the 30th week at which point abortions are only done if the mother's life is in danger.

"Democrats are salivating over the chance to portray Republicans as antiabortion extremists in the wake of the anticipated overruling of Roe v. Wade. But their unwillingness to accept limits on late-term abortions shows they are the real extremists.

Third-trimester abortions are incredibly unpopular among most Americans. The most recent Economist-YouGov poll, for example, found that only 25 percent of all Americans, and 21 percent of independents, agree that abortion should “always be legal” with “no restrictions.” Yet Senate Majority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) is scheduling a vote this week on a bill that would effectively make abortion legal without restrictions for the duration of a woman’s pregnancy. Even though he knows the legislation is doomed to fail because of the Senate filibuster, Schumer is pushing his entire caucus to support the highly unpopular proposal, for which opponents will be able to tar them.
Schumer isn’t alone among Democrats in making themselves politically vulnerable. Rep. Tim Ryan, the Democratic nominee for Ohio’s Senate seat, dodged a direct question from Fox News host Bret Baier on whether Ryan would support any restriction on abortion by saying he would leave it up to the woman and her doctor. White House press secretary Jen Psaki similarly swerved when Fox News reporter Peter Doocy asked about President Biden’s position. She repeatedly refused to commit Biden to supporting any limit on abortion, instead referring Doocy to the president’s prior statements without offering any specifics. In politics, if you’re avoiding a clear answer to a question, it’s usually because you don’t want the public to know what it is.

It might seem strange that Democrats are contorting themselves into pretzels to avoid saying they oppose late-term abortions. But it makes complete sense considering that about half of Democrats believe in no abortion restrictions at all. That total rises to 60 percent among liberal Democrats, according to the most recent ABC News-Post poll, and is surely even higher among the abortion rights activists in the party who are most passionate about the issue."


Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ng-to-be-real-extremists-abortion-roe-v-wade/

Even if what you're saying is true, pro-abortion Democrats clearly want abortions to be legal after the 30th week when the fetus would suffer and experience pain from the abortion even according to you!

This pro-abortion extremism will cause animal suffering (human fetuses are essentially animals). This abortion extremism is contrary to vegan ethical standards.
 

Sax

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The ethics of abortion get trickier later in pregnancy for sure, and I don't claim to have a good answer on what lines should be drawn where. But I have to think expecting a child for 6 months or more and then getting an abortion means something serious and emotionally devastating has occurred. We're not talking about women who were just too lazy to deal with it sooner. I'm fine with leaving that up to a woman and her doctor. I may not always agree with their choices but I don't think it should be illegal for people with much more knowledge and emotional investment in their specific situation to make different choices in what I see as a genuine moral grey area.

Polling general feelings on late term abortion will yield very different results than asking if a woman should be forced to give birth despite serious risk to her own health, or to a baby that will die shortly after birth, or one that will require lifelong intensive care and have no quality of life. So yeah, maybe supporting late term abortions is a losing issue for democrats but that doesn't mean women shouldn't have that option in case of major complications.

BTW I appreciate you representing the pro-life side here.
 
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