The different schools of WFPB eating for health

David3

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Nuts are expensive and so are supplements.
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Not true.

Amazon Spain (which delivers to Portugal) sells a 6 months supply of vegan multivitamins for 19 Euros: Multivitaminas y minerales veganos con vitamina B12, D3 y K2 de alta resistencia. 180 tabletas multivitamínicas - 6 meses de suministro. Diseñado para veganos y vegetarianos: Amazon.es: Salud y cuidado personal

Pingo Doce (the largest supermarket in Portugal) sells 200 grams of walnuts for 3 Euros: Miolo De Noz Metades 200G | Produtos | Pingo Doce . You only need to eat 1-2 ounces (30 to 60 grams) of nuts per day.

Fakei, please check your facts before posting. Your claim makes it seem like being vegan is expensive, and it's just not true. The internet doesn't need more misinformation.
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silva

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Not true.

Amazon Spain (which delivers to Portugal) sells a 6 months supply of vegan multivitamins for 19 Euros: Multivitaminas y minerales veganos con vitamina B12, D3 y K2 de alta resistencia. 180 tabletas multivitamínicas - 6 meses de suministro. Diseñado para veganos y vegetarianos: Amazon.es: Salud y cuidado personal

Pingo Doce (the largest supermarket in Portugal) sells 200 grams of walnuts for 3 Euros: Miolo De Noz Metades 200G | Produtos | Pingo Doce . You only need to eat 1-2 ounces (30 to 60 grams) of nuts per day.

Fakei, please check your facts before posting. Your claim makes it seem like being vegan is expensive, and it's just not true. The internet doesn't need more misinformation.
.
Many people in our areas think healthy foods are too expensive due to so much talk about "superfoods", like the more elusive and costly the more benefits.
Sunflower seeds can sub for cashews, and walnuts for pinenuts. Nuts can be frozen so stock up on sales
It has surprised me how many more reasonable prices I've found since looking for foods like these. Aldi has both chia and flaxseeds so much cheaper than anywhere else I've seen
 
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fakei

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I've read Fuhrman and Gregar. My familiarity with the rest pretty much is based on a few videos and what every other VFers have told me.
I think there is little to no differences with Fuhrman and Gregar. I think one YouTuber made a video on the differences but I can't remember what her conclusions were.
As far as I can tell, the other WFPB doctors disagree on very little - maybe the role and importance of potatoes.
Except for B12, I don't think any of these guys require supplement in their diets. However Fuhrman sells supplements on his website.
Not all nuts are expensive. You can buy 2lbs of peanuts for as little as $

.
Not true.

Amazon Spain (which delivers to Portugal) sells a 6 months supply of vegan multivitamins for 19 Euros: Multivitaminas y minerales veganos con vitamina B12, D3 y K2 de alta resistencia. 180 tabletas multivitamínicas - 6 meses de suministro. Diseñado para veganos y vegetarianos: Amazon.es: Salud y cuidado personal

Pingo Doce (the largest supermarket in Portugal) sells 200 grams of walnuts for 3 Euros: Miolo De Noz Metades 200G | Produtos | Pingo Doce . You only need to eat 1-2 ounces (30 to 60 grams) of nuts per day.

Fakei, please check your facts before posting. Your claim makes it seem like being vegan is expensive, and it's just not true. The internet doesn't need more misinformation.
.

Maybe was missing a "can" in my statement.

Vitabay's cheapest B12 package, sold at Amazon.es, contains 60 pills and costs near 11 euros (postage not included) and that would be around 11% of my estimated, sometimes I think it is a bit overestimated, monthly food spending if I took them on a daily basis. Only take them once a week though and the previous package end up only taking them once every 2 or 3 months and some months beyond the validity date.

Peanuts if they can be considered one are probably the least expensive nut here, and it only took me a handful of them or a tablespoon of peanut butter a day to make a difference while transitioning. But they are still expensive compared to other foods on WFPB diet.

Excluding peanuts almonds are probably the less expensive nut around here in particular if bought in local market. Would consider the package you mention to be expensive in particular if consuming them in the amounts you mention. Besides except for peanuts, never found any nut to make a difference. And latter found the effects peanuts had could be achieved by including potatoes. But to be honest don't know how much of the previously mentioned is not psychological. Or maybe because I was consuming around 125g a day of legumes at the time and now it's 200g and maybe was short of some essential aminoacid. After the transition period don't seem to have any problems with a well rounded WFPB and excluding potatoes and peanuts, though in the long run also had a source of fat, right now it is flax seeds.
 
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Lou

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So before you watch that video you really should watch Part 1.
Here is the link to part 1.
-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKvmAww6eaU

But I can probably save you time.
It turns out that there a few doctors who are promoting a high-fat plant-based diet. And I don't believe any of these doctors are ones that you have heard of before. I think all the regular promoters of WFPB include the elimination of oils and a low limit on nuts. I don't have any of the WFPB diet books here but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that their meal plans are like 20 -30% fat. I think it general it would be a good idea to maybe keep in under 20% but not to go much under that. As I mentioned in another thread - fat is an essential nutrient.

This guy's whole thing is a rebuttal to the doctors who are promoting a high-fat plant-based diet. But since I had never heard of these guys or their diets, I didn't think it was worth my time to listen so someone debunk them.

It appears to be a great rebuttal with lots of evidence and facts.
 
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fakei

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So before you watch that video you really should watch Part 1.
Here is the link to part 1.
-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKvmAww6eaU

But I can probably save you time.
It turns out that there a few doctors who are promoting a high-fat plant-based diet. And I don't believe any of these doctors are ones that you have heard of before. I think all the regular promoters of WFPB include the elimination of oils and a low limit on nuts. I don't have any of the WFPB diet books here but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that their meal plans are like 20 -30% fat. I think it general it would be a good idea to maybe keep in under 20% but not to go much under that. As I mentioned in another thread - fat is an essential nutrient.

This guy's whole thing is a rebuttal to the doctors who are promoting a high-fat plant-based diet. But since I had never heard of these guys or their diets, I didn't think it was worth my time to listen so someone debunk them.

It appears to be a great rebuttal with lots of evidence and facts.
Thanks. I'd seen the first video. Posted this because of the studies mentioned.

Around minute 6:44 he mentions the Tarahumara diet studied by Nathan Pritikin which consisted of 10% fat, 10% protein and 80% carbs and the last considered going above 10-15% of calories to be detrimental. Can't find it right now but remember the 10% threshold from other videos too.
 

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The title should really read low fat plant based diets prevent and reverse heart disease!
I haven't really read of any doctors that promote high fat plant based diets. I have heard of Paleo-vegan, which suppose would be high fat.
Most advocate limited seeds and nuts, avocado, soy--not even saturated plant fats. Dr Greger, and of course Esselstyn, recommend avoiding coconut
 
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Lou

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Thanks. I'd seen the first video. Posted this because of the studies mentioned.

Around minute 6:44 he mentions the Tarahumara diet studied by Nathan Pritikin which consisted of 10% fat, 10% protein and 80% carbs and the last considered going above 10-15% of calories to be detrimental. Can't find it right now but remember the 10% threshold from other videos too.
The 10/10/80 ratio is also what a raw vegan shoots for. But if you look at a typical person's diet of 1600 - 2000 calories a day that is too few grams of protein and fat a day. The way the raw vegans get away with it is that they eat 3000 or more calories a day. And they get away with that with lots of exercises.

I can't remember the exact number - and of course, there are variables but I think we need something above 15 grams of fat a day. And at least 40g grams of protein. And those are real minimums - not optimal.
 
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fakei

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The title should really read low fat plant based diets prevent and reverse heart disease!
I haven't really read of any doctors that promote high fat plant based diets. I have heard of Paleo-vegan, which suppose would be high fat.
Most advocate limited seeds and nuts, avocado, soy--not even saturated plant fats. Dr Greger, and of course Esselstyn, recommend avoiding coconut
I think he is considering anything above the Ornish-Esselstyn-Pritikin threshold to be a high fat diet because there are doctors saying they can achieve better results with higher fat content from certain foods, and he is saying there are no reliable studies showing the last while there is enough evidence of the first.

The 10/10/80 ratio is also what a raw vegan shoots for. But if you look at a typical person's diet of 1600 - 2000 calories a day that is too few grams of protein and fat a day. The way the raw vegans get away with it is that they eat 3000 or more calories a day. And they get away with that with lots of exercises.

I can't remember the exact number - and of course, there are variables but I think we need something above 15 grams of fat a day. And at least 40g grams of protein. And those are real minimums - not optimal.

But what I'm struggling to understand is how can it get much above 15g with a no nuts or oils diet. Even getting there looks difficult unless one consumes some 3 tablespoons of flax seeds.
 
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silva

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I think he is considering anything above the Ornish-Esselstyn-Pritikin threshold to be a high fat diet because there are doctors saying they can achieve better results with higher fat content from certain foods, and he is saying there are no reliable studies showing the last while there is enough evidence of the first.



But what I'm struggling to understand is how can get much above 15g with a no nuts or oils diet. Even getting there looks difficult unless one consumes some 3 tablespoons of flax seeds.
Why no nut or seeds? I mean Esselstyn only advocates that low fat for those with heart conditions, not everyone.
 

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Why no nut or seeds? I mean Esselstyn only advocates that low fat for those with heart conditions, not everyone.
Agreed but doctor McDougall in The Starch Solution also recommends dumping nuts and avocados to loose weight, treat chronic disease or prevent imminent disease. But what if one feels better without those foods? Is it really necessary to consume the RDA of fat?
 
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Lou

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I think he is considering anything above the Ornish-Esselstyn-Pritikin threshold to be a high fat diet because there are doctors saying they can achieve better results with higher fat content from certain foods, and he is saying there are no reliable studies showing the last while there is enough evidence of the first.



But what I'm struggling to understand is how can it get much above 15g with a no nuts or oils diet. Even getting there looks difficult unless one consumes some 3 tablespoons of flax seeds.
Is there anyone saying we shouldn't eat ANY nuts and seeds? Dr Gregar recommends 1 Tbsp of seeds and 2 tbsp of nuts and 3 servings of beans.

Just plug that using 3/4 of a block of tofu as my 3 servings into chronometer and I got 30 grams of fat. 4 grams sat fat. 2 g of omega 3 and 7 of omega 6 ( I'm not sure - but I think that is good.) 30 grams of protein too.
 
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Lou

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Agreed but doctor McDougall in The Starch Solution also recommends dumping nuts and avocados to loose weight, treat chronic disease or prevent imminent disease. But what if one feels better without those foods? Is it really necessary to consume the RDA of fat?
Not sure what the RDA of fat is (but it probably pretty high). and like I said I'm not sure of the minimum - which would vary from person to person anyway. But we do need to intake some fat every day. It is essential. I'm guessing that 20 grams of fat is in the ballpark as a minimum.

When I was not trying to gain weight I would set a goal of between 20% and 30% fat. Maybe I could have gone a little lower but I found that getting below 20% was super hard. So I would go with 60/20/20 as my diet goals.

I didn't finish either video but I wonder if the Doctors he is criticizing were promoting Keto Vegan diets. Keto diets are usually less than 10% carbs with the rest being fat and protein. Most people just call them low carb diets but I suppose you could also call them high-fat diets.
 

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Not sure what the RDA of fat is (but it probably pretty high). and like I said I'm not sure of the minimum - which would vary from person to person anyway. But we do need to intake some fat every day. It is essential. I'm guessing that 20 grams of fat is in the ballpark as a minimum.

When I was not trying to gain weight I would set a goal of between 20% and 30% fat. Maybe I could have gone a little lower but I found that getting below 20% was super hard. So I would go with 60/20/20 as my diet goals.

I didn't finish either video but I wonder if the Doctors he is criticizing were promoting Keto Vegan diets. Keto diets are usually less than 10% carbs with the rest being fat and protein. Most people just call them low carb diets but I suppose you could also call them high-fat diets.
20 grams is easy with just a Tblsp of ground flax, and a serving of raw nuts!
 
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Lou

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20 grams is easy with just a Tblsp of ground flax, and a serving of raw nuts!
Yes but I am not sure that 20 grams are right, and it's going to vary on the individual.
also, that is not all the fat you will get each day. Tofu, soymilk, and other good vegan foods also contain some fat.
 

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Is there anyone saying we shouldn't eat ANY nuts and seeds? Dr Gregar recommends 1 Tbsp of seeds and 2 tbsp of nuts and 3 servings of beans.

Just plug that using 3/4 of a block of tofu as my 3 servings into chronometer and I got 30 grams of fat. 4 grams sat fat. 2 g of omega 3 and 7 of omega 6 ( I'm not sure - but I think that is good.) 30 grams of protein too.


Not sure what the RDA of fat is (but it probably pretty high). and like I said I'm not sure of the minimum - which would vary from person to person anyway. But we do need to intake some fat every day. It is essential. I'm guessing that 20 grams of fat is in the ballpark as a minimum.

When I was not trying to gain weight I would set a goal of between 20% and 30% fat. Maybe I could have gone a little lower but I found that getting below 20% was super hard. So I would go with 60/20/20 as my diet goals.

I didn't finish either video but I wonder if the Doctors he is criticizing were promoting Keto Vegan diets. Keto diets are usually less than 10% carbs with the rest being fat and protein. Most people just call them low carb diets but I suppose you could also call them high-fat diets.
Forgot these things can vary greatly with what one is eating, that's probably why low fat doctors usually don't mention tofu or soy products. It is easy to keep a low fat diet with a beans and rice diet for instance.
 

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Regarding nuts they seem nevertheless to be part of the European vegetarian tradition. you see them mentioned in vegetarian diets in ancient texts and also remember a person who lived in a Cathoic monastery where they follow a strict vegetarian diet saying that they included nuts in the diet to compensate for the lack of animal products.
 

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I guess I mostly eat a mix of both (if I'm not in vegan junk food mode that is, lol).

Fuhrman's approach is not enough starches for me. McDougall/Barnard's approach etc. is not heavy enough on beans and nuts for me.

So in the end I eat more beans and nuts than McDougall/Barnard recommend and more starches than Fuhrman recommends (again, if I'm not in vegan junk food mode, lol).
Overall what matters is, has your approach helped you with your goals/progress... if you can share any updates on that, it would be great.
 

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Well, eating more vegetables, beans, fruit etc. "feels healthy" so it gives a good feeling. If it will help dying several years later is something one will never be able to prove.

In the end a diet is always a compromise. Even if there was "a best diet ever" it would be worth zilch if basically no one is able to follow it longterm. So I rather follow a diet that is manageable for me.
 

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If it will help dying several years later is something one will never be able to prove.
Prove - like make into a fact? No. but
Prove like a hypothesis? A theory? of course.

and there is already so much "proof". There are huge population studies like The China Study, The Okinawa Study, and the Adventist study. They all pretty much "prove" the same thing. People get sick less often and live longer if they eat less meat.

Then you have hundreds of little studies. Like when a researcher checks the blood pressure of ten men. or tracks 100 women who have had breast cancer.

Then there is what I'm going to call reverse studies. Like when they associate red meat with colon cancer. so one can assume that eating less red meat is good for you.
In the end a diet is always a compromise. Even if there was "a best diet ever" it would be worth zilch if basically no one is able to follow it longterm. So I rather follow a diet that is manageable for me.

Of course, a diet is not worth zilch if you are not on it. Like what trainers say, " the best exercise is useless if you don't do it". So there is a lot to be said about finding an exercise you like. And it's the same with diet.

But the motivation factor is very important. We have all heard or read the stories of the guy coming into the doctor's office and hearing, "If you don't start taking care of yourself, you will be dead in a year". and then the guy loses 50 pounds. People are way motivated when it's literally life or death.

I think people vary in how they translate nutrition info into behavior. Some people will go on all kinds of diets and exercise plans if they have heard it might add 5 years to their life. Others won't even make a small change even when they Know it will add 10 years to their life.
 
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