Not vegan enough?

[Vanille]

Just lurking around in threads here and I get the idea that some "vegans" here see it as a competition... Calling users not real vegans because of one or two products they are unable to replace, or were forced to consume animal products in specific situations... I've also seen people on social media literally bashing themselves because they had to pick the vegetarian option for once (as there was nothing vegan) like those people hate themselves for eating vegetarian once, when yeah it's not vegan but you still picked the option where no animals died... You could've eaten a steak as well but you didn't *applause*

Or vegans straight up accusing vegetarians of animal exploitation, like...

We are all doing our best to make this world a bit more animal friendly, all of us. Even those who don't do it for the animals are a big help.
So what if you're "only" 95% vegan? Like unable to replace a few products due to health or financial reasons. I consider you vegan if you never eat meat, no other animal products (at least actively try to, one mistake at a restaurant doesn't make you evil) try to replace as many daily products (cleaning products, cosmetica etc) with vegan options as far as you're able to. Not wearing leather or fur (wool I think is fine personally, but only if the sheep are treated right and shaved carefully)
I won't call anyone fake vegan if they use non-vegan shampoo, if the reason is lack of money or allergies. I personally shower vegan now but Idk 100% sure if my deodorant is vegan, I think it is tho but yeah not gonna switch either way as I spent years trying to find one I'm not allergic to... Now I finally found one and yeah I really need it, I sweat a lot at work and that's gross.

No one can be 100% vegan, and that's okay, all of us are helping in our own way. The closer to 100% the better, but lets not shame people for being unable to reach perfection when they do their best, just like you do. And if I see anyone shaming people for using non-vegan meds, I will fight you, that's not okay, no one should have to risk their health...

 

[PinkCupcake]

This is so true.
Thanks Vanille!
I've noticed same thing sometimes I even feel bad - I remember how hard it was at the beginning. I live in small country where is super limited brand options in drug store for variety of products. And I tried my best to slowly replace or search for vegan & cruelty-free alternatives.
Even now I struggle with toothpastes and I end up ordering them online, but few years ago I couldn't afford such luxury. And that is ok, no one shouldn't feel bad or shamed if you end up buying a product, that might not be vegan / cruelty free, or go to hairdresser, that might not use all vegan products, or have a meal in family gathering that is vegetarian.

I believe that veganism is about empathy, love, understanding and trying your best to live without harming animals or earth, or other humans.

 

[Sax]

Gotta disagree with the "it's okay to eat vegetarian sometimes". Unless you won't be able to get yourself some actual vegan food for a long time you should just refrain from eating. Your moral convictions shouldn't bend in the face of minor inconvenience.

It's not a competition and what is "possible and practicable" is gonna be different for each person, but I don't think people should give themselves a pass because of inconvenience, failure to be assertive, or $1.00 extra for toothpaste. This isn't religion where you can contradict your morals then apologize for it and it's all good.

 

[Vanille]

Gotta disagree with the "it's okay to eat vegetarian sometimes". Unless you won't be able to get yourself some actual vegan food for a long time you should just refrain from eating. Your moral convictions shouldn't bend in the face of minor inconvenience.

It's not a competition and what is "possible and practicable" is gonna be different for each person, but I don't think people should give themselves a pass because of inconvenience, failure to be assertive, or $1.00 extra for toothpaste. This isn't religion where you can contradict your morals then apologize for it and it's all good.

Did you read my topic or just that sentence? I ONLY think it's okay when there's REALLY no vegan option and you obviously shouldn't starve yourself. As someone with food allergies, it's actually possible too that the only vegan dish contains stuff you can't eat. What then? Starve yourself or make an exception and go veggie? Now of course there is no excuse when people make exceptions all the damn time, especially when it comes to the vegan diet (other products I understand) Also different countries/areas have different products. I haven't seen an affordable vegan toothpaste and this is a product I rather not experiment too much with either. Also vegan chocolate for example. I get showered by ads constantly but all American stuff... I haven't found vegan milk chocolate here (does that mean I'm gonna cheat? No, I stick with dark chocolate and make sure there's truly no milk in it, because even a lot of dark chocolate contains milk, I always read labels now before buying a new product or brand)
I already consider someone vegan if they eat vegan. Personally, I want to eat a vegan diet, I no longer buy clothes that contain animal products and try to be as vegan as I'm able to with other stuff. As I said, I shower vegan now, my deodorant should be vegan too. I don't wear makeup nor use skin products (other than a medical cream for heat rash) so no need to replace those. No idea what's in my hair dye but I quit dying it (only did 2 times, highlights)
I can't replace certain products yet as I still live with 3 omnivores atm but am looking around so I know what to buy when I moved out. Found some soaps and cleaning products, but my parents already don't accept me eating vegan (I do it anyways, just buy everything myself) so I have to wait with that. And as for washing powder (or whatever it's called in English) if the only vegan brand ruins my clothes, I'll have to go back to non-vegan product. But if it works and it's not too expensive, I have no excuse to use different brands anymore.

Possible and practicable, but can you look into peoples wallets? What do you know about their relationships? Do you know anything about their area and the stores in that area?

And yeah, I do agree we should judge those who clearly aren't trying at all or make exceptions all the damn time (even when they don't have to)

 

[Vanille]

This is so true.
Thanks Vanille!
I've noticed same thing sometimes I even feel bad - I remember how hard it was at the beginning. I live in small country where is super limited brand options in drug store for variety of products. And I tried my best to slowly replace or search for vegan & cruelty-free alternatives.
Even now I struggle with toothpastes and I end up ordering them online, but few years ago I couldn't afford such luxury. And that is ok, no one shouldn't feel bad or shamed if you end up buying a product, that might not be vegan / cruelty free, or go to hairdresser, that might not use all vegan products, or have a meal in family gathering that is vegetarian.

I believe that veganism is about empathy, love, understanding and trying your best to live without harming animals or earth, or other humans.

Yeah I feel ashamed when I wash my hands with non-vegan soap for example but my mom would kill me if I bought my own and put it next to it, that's "extremist behaviour". I don't feel bad about my toothpaste as I had the same brand my whole life and my teeth got kinda ruined by my previous dentist, it's not a product I wanna experiment with as my teeth are so damaged, a wrong toothpaste could be fatal and I'm too young for fake teeth...
The girl who gave me the final push to veganism isn't even as vegan as I am atm, but we help each other out, no judging. I was vegetarian before her btw and gave her the final push to quit eating animals, she went a bit further within just a few weeks and inspired me to do the same. I wasn't aware of a lot of cruelty and in a way... Veganism is super demotivating and motivating at the same time. Sooo many things we gotta keep in mind while living our lives, but at the same time, we are aware, we're the ones that can make a (needed) change. And whenever I do it "right" I feel so happy

 

[Lou]

IMHO, none of us should ever judge anyone else for not being "vegan enough".

And I feel pretty good about that stance cause it seems like all my favorite vegan authors say the same thing. (see Colleen Patrick Goudreaux, Peter Singer, Melanie Joy).

Melanie Joy has a slogan, "Be as vegan as possible".

I've also learned that I seem to be a "sufficientarian" or something like that. I think I always had this personal philosophy - just didn't know that it had a name.

The CEO of Veganuary says Veganuary's "philosophy is that it’s about doing your best, and not losing sleep over it”.

And when it doubt, going back to the Vegan Society's definition it "seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable". Which I think means its more about good intentions than perfect consequences.

My inspirational poster says, " The perfect is the enemy of the good".

 

[PinkCupcake]

Gotta disagree with the "it's okay to eat vegetarian sometimes". Unless you won't be able to get yourself some actual vegan food for a long time you should just refrain from eating. Your moral convictions shouldn't bend in the face of minor inconvenience.

It's not a competition and what is "possible and practicable" is gonna be different for each person, but I don't think people should give themselves a pass because of inconvenience, failure to be assertive, or $1.00 extra for toothpaste. This isn't religion where you can contradict your morals then apologize for it and it's all good.

Yeah, I do agree with you at most points and that is very true you're saying about "moral convictions shouldn't bend in the face of minor inconvenience." but i and most others live in Riga, or other small spots all around the globe, ordering toothpaste online means from abroad, that is not nearly 1$ more but more like 10-15$ more. And with average salary of 770$ if you spend 20$ on toothpaste - do the math (besides when I turned vegan I was working only part time & full time studies). We have 5 vegan restaurants in whole country and about 30% of cafes is not even offering a vegetarian dish. So - yes, I do go to them every time and ask if they can remove cheese and make it without sauce, and most of times it works out fine, but sometimes that is not up to me, if I'm visiting my family for instance. It would be really bit**y move to just not eat even potatoes if they are cooked in cream. And I don't want to ruin my family diner / gathering just because of my life choices - so ether i don't go at all, or I accept an exclusion without punishing myself. It might be hard to understand or accept, that some of us have exceptions in empathy to animal and that is ok - none of us should have. But so do none of us should feel like they can't do it. They can't be vegans if not 100% of all their life, friends and everything changes.
All I ask / think about is not to be too pushy or harsh about that - it does discourage people and makes them feel bad about themselves and less of them will end up on right truck.

And I am really happy about you Sax, that you are able to keep up 100% vegan, that is truly amazing and hold up the spirit!

 

[Lou]

Further reading

Why Perfection Is The Enemy Of Done

Effective work is about moving toward the desired destination, and not necessarily about ensuring that nothing gets spilled or knocked over in the process.

www.forbes.com

Why there’s no such thing as a perfect vegan

Almost everything we eat involves some kind of animal suffering – but we can do our best to minimise it

www.theguardian.com

Shaming Vegans Harms Animals - by Melanie Joy - The Vegan Strategist

This post is also available in: Français EspañolThis is a guest post by Dr. Melanie Joy, who is the author of Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: An Introduction to Carnism and is a Harvard-educated psychologist. In this article she talks about what she sees as a major problem in our...

veganstrategist.org

 

[PinkCupcake]

Yeah I feel ashamed when I wash my hands with non-vegan soap for example but my mom would kill me if I bought my own and put it next to it, that's "extremist behaviour". I don't feel bad about my toothpaste as I had the same brand my whole life and my teeth got kinda ruined by my previous dentist, it's not a product I wanna experiment with as my teeth are so damaged, a wrong toothpaste could be fatal and I'm too young for fake teeth...
The girl who gave me the final push to veganism isn't even as vegan as I am atm, but we help each other out, no judging. I was vegetarian before her btw and gave her the final push to quit eating animals, she went a bit further within just a few weeks and inspired me to do the same. I wasn't aware of a lot of cruelty and in a way... Veganism is super demotivating and motivating at the same time. Sooo many things we gotta keep in mind while living our lives, but at the same time, we are aware, we're the ones that can make a (needed) change. And whenever I do it "right" I feel so happy

Yeah, that's the ting, Sweetheart! It's just so good when you do the best you could possibly can for yourself and animals. It is a really thin line, but I would rather not call myself vegan if i cannot adopt a senior dog from shelter and give him some meat with meal just because he is so used to it. I truly believe that it gives bad taste to veganism and i not appreciate it too much.
Let's just appreciate all people that are trying their best and actually if some of my friends say that they are having 1 vegetarian dish now a week because of me, that means so incredibly much to me! Let's make more of them!

 

[PinkCupcake]

Further reading

Why Perfection Is The Enemy Of Done

Effective work is about moving toward the desired destination, and not necessarily about ensuring that nothing gets spilled or knocked over in the process.

www.forbes.com

Why there’s no such thing as a perfect vegan

Almost everything we eat involves some kind of animal suffering – but we can do our best to minimise it

www.theguardian.com

Shaming Vegans Harms Animals - by Melanie Joy - The Vegan Strategist

This post is also available in: Français EspañolThis is a guest post by Dr. Melanie Joy, who is the author of Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: An Introduction to Carnism and is a Harvard-educated psychologist. In this article she talks about what she sees as a major problem in our...

veganstrategist.org

This is just right - thanks a lot, Lou!
This is like sunshine in forest. Just the right thinking!
Thanks a ton of the media materials. This is just highlighting so good the point!

 

[Sax]

Did you read my topic or just that sentence? I ONLY think it's okay when there's REALLY no vegan option and you obviously shouldn't starve yourself. As someone with food allergies, it's actually possible too that the only vegan dish contains stuff you can't eat. What then? Starve yourself or make an exception and go veggie?

Yup I did. Sounds like we're pretty much in agreement! I'm lucky to be able to avoid almost 100% of animal products...and that's on a fairly low income in a food desert. I don't expect everyone else to have it as good as me but I also don't think people should get used to making excuses for themselves.

People with food allergies should expect to eat out less often, if at all. Yeah it's inconvenient, but compared to the life of a factory farmed animal I really don't care if you experience mild hunger for a couple hours. Suck it up.

 

[Nekodaiden]

I've also seen people on social media literally bashing themselves because they had to pick the vegetarian option for once (as there was nothing vegan) like those people hate themselves for eating vegetarian once, when yeah it's not vegan but you still picked the option where no animals died... You could've eaten a steak as well but you didn't *applause*

One of the driving (perhaps THE driving) force in Veganism is voting with your dollars. A second is defining what it means to be something with how you act. If an individual pays for a non-vegan meal (like a vegetarian meal) they are saying to the business " You do not have to accommodate vegans. I will pay your establishment to serve me animal products. " - and they will not change.

The second message it says is just as damaging to both vegans and non-vegans - it weakens the definition of Vegan in the eyes of others - so that people can walk around carrying the name vegan when really they are a vegetarian or flexitarian. It is no wonder to me when I tell people I'm vegan they ask if I eat eggs, or fish. The reason they ask is because "vegan", as a term, is damaged by people who call themselves that and still eat animal products.

No one can be 100% vegan, and that's okay, all of us are helping in our own way. The closer to 100% the better, but lets not shame people for being unable to reach perfection when they do their best, just like you do. And if I see anyone shaming people for using non-vegan meds, I will fight you, that's not okay, no one should have to risk their health...

I'm 100% vegan - as I have not willfully and knowingly eaten any animal products in nearly 2 years. The extended definitions to things like soaps, cat food etc are secondary considerations and not something I consider binding to the word - which is basically vegetarian without eggs and dairy or any other animal products in the diet of the person claiming the title.

 

[Vanille]

One of the driving (perhaps THE driving) force in Veganism is voting with your dollars. A second is defining what it means to be something with how you act. If an individual pays for a non-vegan meal (like a vegetarian meal) they are saying to the business " You do not have to accommodate vegans. I will pay your establishment to serve me animal products. " - and they will not change.

The second message it says is just as damaging to both vegans and non-vegans - it weakens the definition of Vegan in the eyes of others - so that people can walk around carrying the name vegan when really they are a vegetarian or flexitarian. It is no wonder to me when I tell people I'm vegan they ask if I eat eggs, or fish. The reason they ask is because "vegan", as a term, is damaged by people who call themselves that and still eat animal products.




I'm 100% vegan - as I have not willfully and knowingly eaten any animal products in nearly 2 years. The extended definitions to things like soaps, cat food etc are secondary considerations and not something I consider binding to the word - which is basically vegetarian without eggs and dairy or any other animal products in the diet of the person claiming the title.

I meant no one can be 100% vegan if you include other products and medication. Everyone can follow a full vegan diet. I'm doing it and feeling great mentally and physically. It's really not that expensive either... Not buying leather or fur ain't a problem either. I've been buying fake leather for years, it's not only animal friendly, but also cheaper.

I agree people shouldn't call themselves vegan if they make exceptions constantly, let alone eat meat, those aren't even vegetarian and shouldn't be taken seriously. Cutting out meat and fish is doable for everyone, no excuses.

 

[Vanille]

Yup I did. Sounds like we're pretty much in agreement! I'm lucky to be able to avoid almost 100% of animal products...and that's on a fairly low income in a food desert. I don't expect everyone else to have it as good as me but I also don't think people should get used to making excuses for themselves.

People with food allergies should expect to eat out less often, if at all. Yeah it's inconvenient, but compared to the life of a factory farmed animal I really don't care if you experience mild hunger for a couple hours. Suck it up.

lol I barely eat out, I've only been in one situation like this (since my change) and yeah... I refuse to take veggie options with cheese as well so I ended up eating dry bread in a lunchroom, after a long discussion with the waitress who was seriously annoyed. But hey, my stomach was filled for a while...

"Just skip a meal" is an advice I rather not give as someone who suffered from an eating disorder... But yeah, I'd also be fine with buying a bag of nuts or some fruit in the nearest store, but when I'm with people who desperately want to sit somewhere... Idk I lack experience here, we'll see how I end up dealing with that longterm.

 

[NathanD3V]

Interesting topic. Sorry for the essay I ended up writing as a response, I'm quite passionate about this.

Personally, I'd take into consideration someone's motivation, location and financial situation before I form an opinion about their position on the vegan scale.

If someone's motivation to be a vegan is animal rights, spending money on a product that endorses cruelty should (in their eyes) be unethical and un-vegan.
If someone's motivation is environmentally based, the occasional steak or fried chicken wouldn't (in their eyes) be morally unacceptable as it would be justified as being a treat after normalising the vegan diet.
If someone's motivation is purely diet-based, (in their eyes) using cosmetics or toiletries which use animals for byproducts or testing isn't an issue, so would be vegan for them.

There're many areas in the world with high rates of food insecurity - even cases of entire cities being classed as food deserts which have very little access to fresh food. If someone lives in one of these areas, or they aren't able to say with certainty where their next meal is coming from, any food that they're able to consume should be ethical in their eyes as it's key to their survival.

There're also many places in which the total cost for a sufficiently nutritional vegan diet exceeds the budget that some people are able to afford. Prices for similar products vary greatly nationally and internationally, so it's very hard to create a perfect shopping list which can satisfy the nutritional requirements and budgets of all vegans worldwide.

I'm in a position where my motivation for becoming vegan was for animal rights and environmental reasons so I aim to ensure I don't consume or use any animal products. Luckily, I have access to supermarkets where, for a subjectively small cost, I can get ingredients to prepare nutritionally balanced meals that don't conflict with my ethical views. Granted, I'm human and have most likely mistakenly used animal byproducts somehow, but I try my best to make sure I don't. I consider myself a vegan because I'm able to attain what I deem to be an ethical lifestyle taking my situation into account.

I'm lucky to be fortunate, however I can empathise with fellow vegans who may be in more challenging situations where they may not be able to live in accordance with their own ethical standards. I wouldn't consider them to be non-vegans as they're trying their best within whatever limitations they may have. For me, veganism is subjective to your own circumstances including motivation and capabilities. Not being 'vegan enough' depends on each individual deciding whether they're doing the best they can; if so, it's unquestionable that they're 'vegan enough'.

 

[Vanille]

Interesting topic. Sorry for the essay I ended up writing as a response, I'm quite passionate about this.

Personally, I'd take into consideration someone's motivation, location and financial situation before I form an opinion about their position on the vegan scale.

If someone's motivation to be a vegan is animal rights, spending money on a product that endorses cruelty should (in their eyes) be unethical and un-vegan.
If someone's motivation is environmentally based, the occasional steak or fried chicken wouldn't (in their eyes) be morally unacceptable as it would be justified as being a treat after normalising the vegan diet.
If someone's motivation is purely diet-based, (in their eyes) using cosmetics or toiletries which use animals for byproducts or testing isn't an issue, so would be vegan for them.

There're many areas in the world with high rates of food insecurity - even cases of entire cities being classed as food deserts which have very little access to fresh food. If someone lives in one of these areas, or they aren't able to say with certainty where their next meal is coming from, any food that they're able to consume should be ethical in their eyes as it's key to their survival.

There're also many places in which the total cost for a sufficiently nutritional vegan diet exceeds the budget that some people are able to afford. Prices for similar products vary greatly nationally and internationally, so it's very hard to create a perfect shopping list which can satisfy the nutritional requirements and budgets of all vegans worldwide.

I'm in a position where my motivation for becoming vegan was for animal rights and environmental reasons so I aim to ensure I don't consume or use any animal products. Luckily, I have access to supermarkets where, for a subjectively small cost, I can get ingredients to prepare nutritionally balanced meals that don't conflict with my ethical views. Granted, I'm human and have most likely mistakenly used animal byproducts somehow, but I try my best to make sure I don't. I consider myself a vegan because I'm able to attain what I deem to be an ethical lifestyle taking my situation into account.

I'm lucky to be fortunate, however I can empathise with fellow vegans who may be in more challenging situations where they may not be able to live in accordance with their own ethical standards. I wouldn't consider them to be non-vegans as they're trying their best within whatever limitations they may have. For me, veganism is subjective to your own circumstances including motivation and capabilities. Not being 'vegan enough' depends on each individual deciding whether they're doing the best they can; if so, it's unquestionable that they're 'vegan enough'.

Thank you ^^

Ehh it's just my insecurity of lacking (in anything, I'm never good enough) and some vegans can be so cruel to others... I'm vegan for animal rights and also my own health. Tho animal rights is my #1 motivation. I only started a few weeks ago and even as vegetarian I was kind of flexible (I didn't eat meat or fish, tho I did make exceptions for gelatin, and didnt know cheese wasn't vegetarian tho I barely ate cheese anyways as I hate it lol) so I'm proud of myself changing to the vegan diet in a short amount of time, despite everyone around me, except my friend, ridiculing me... I started showering vegan now all I need to do is change my handsoap and cleaning products (as I rather not change my toothpaste, I explained why) which is doable I think, but not yet as I still live with my parents who don't support this at all... I'm not gonna tell my mom to do the dishes with vegan soap lol, nor am I less of a vegan if I eat from such plate... With handsoap, I can't put my own next to it unless I want war... Stuff like that simply has to wait till I moved out (which I plan on ASAP but good luck finding an appartment lol) am I not allowed to call myself vegan if I eat and clean myself vegan, wear vegan clothes and shoes, but can't replace a few products yet? That's actually ridiculous when freaking soap is your exception, I'd understand calling someone a fake vegan if they still eat meat, drink milk or buy real leather from time to time but come on...

My end goal is to make exceptions only when my health is at risk or when a product I need is no longer available here or unaffordable (with food this shouldn't even happen, they're not gonna ban veggies or soy milk from grocery stores lol) But am I not vegan yet because I haven't reached my end goal? Yes, I am, and feeling great so don't ruin it for me now.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

 

[Emma JC]

There're many areas in the world with high rates of food insecurity - even cases of entire cities being classed as food deserts which have very little access to fresh food. If someone lives in one of these areas, or they aren't able to say with certainty where their next meal is coming from, any food that they're able to consume should be ethical in their eyes as it's key to their survival.

There're also many places in which the total cost for a sufficiently nutritional vegan diet exceeds the budget that some people are able to afford. Prices for similar products vary greatly nationally and internationally, so it's very hard to create a perfect shopping list which can satisfy the nutritional requirements and budgets of all vegans worldwide.

Thank you for your thoughts and contribution to this topic. I agree with everything you say and I do feel very sad for those that live in a food desert as many of those areas usually have a high degree of poverty.

I am not sure that I agree that a "sufficiently nutritional vegan diet" is more expensive than a SAD (standard american diet), even in a food desert. Even if "fresh and varied" produce is less available it is unlikely that frozen fruits and vegetables are not available and they are likely less expensive than fresh. Canned fruits and vegetables are not ideal and yet they are available in dollar stores and food deserts. Potatoes and rice are almost always available and make a great base for canned beans, and whatever veggies and spices can be added. I agree that if you try to live off Gardein and Tofurky and Beyond and Just Eggs then you will be spending more money, however, whole foods are much much better than any of these and much less expensive. IMO

Supermarkets are mostly vegan by default:

• all produce aisles - fresh fruits and vegetables and herbs
• frozen aisles - frozen fruits, vegetables
• bean aisles - canned beans, dried beans, breakfast beans, lentils
• canned fruits and vegetables
• pasta/rice aisle - most pastas and sauces, noodles, rice
• condiments aisle - vinegars, olives, pickles, ketchup, soy sauce, hot sauces, mustard, tahini
• snack and bulk aisle - nuts, dried fruits, nutritional yeast, various grains, some potato chips
• cereal aisle - oatmeal, Spoon Size Shredded Wheat, Shredded Wheat etc
• beverage aisle - sparkling water, herbal teas, coffee
• bakery aisle - sprouted breads, pitas, tortillas
• dairy aisle - tofu, plant-based milks

As you stated also, a shopping list worldwide would be challenging due to national and even regional differences but there is always a 'starch' that is typical for an area and beans or lentils are usually a staple also.

I am not a perfect vegan and I doubt that too many are, however, when it comes to food there should be almost no excuses as it would be difficult to find an "animal product" that would replicate the nutrition that a "fresh food" desert does not supply.

Emma JC
(now it's me that seems to have essayed this thread)

 

[Vanille]

Thank you for your thoughts and contribution to this topic. I agree with everything you say and I do feel very sad for those that live in a food desert as many of those areas usually have a high degree of poverty.

I am not sure that I agree that a "sufficiently nutritional vegan diet" is more expensive than a SAD (standard american diet), even in a food desert. Even if "fresh and varied" produce is less available it is unlikely that frozen fruits and vegetables are not available and they are likely less expensive than fresh. Canned fruits and vegetables are not ideal and yet they are available in dollar stores and food deserts. Potatoes and rice are almost always available and make a great base for canned beans, and whatever veggies and spices can be added. I agree that if you try to live off Gardein and Tofurky and Beyond and Just Eggs then you will be spending more money, however, whole foods are much much better than any of these and much less expensive. IMO

Supermarkets are mostly vegan by default:

• all produce aisles - fresh fruits and vegetables and herbs
• frozen aisles - frozen fruits, vegetables
• bean aisles - canned beans, dried beans, breakfast beans, lentils
• canned fruits and vegetables
• pasta/rice aisle - most pastas and sauces, noodles, rice
• condiments aisle - vinegars, olives, pickles, ketchup, soy sauce, hot sauces, mustard, tahini
• snack and bulk aisle - nuts, dried fruits, nutritional yeast, various grains, some potato chips
• cereal aisle - oatmeal, Spoon Size Shredded Wheat, Shredded Wheat etc
• beverage aisle - sparkling water, herbal teas, coffee
• bakery aisle - sprouted breads, pitas, tortillas
• dairy aisle - tofu, plant-based milks

As you stated also, a shopping list worldwide would be challenging due to national and even regional differences but there is always a 'starch' that is typical for an area and beans or lentils are usually a staple also.

I am not a perfect vegan and I doubt that too many are, however, when it comes to food there should be almost no excuses as it would be difficult to find an "animal product" that would replicate the nutrition that a "fresh food" desert does not supply.

Emma JC
(now it's me that seems to have essayed this thread)

So basically we all share the exact same opinion just people jumped at me after somehow magically misunderstanding me... This is why I hate the internet lol, nothing to do with vegans, people can't read...