Philosophy Nihilism

[Second Summer]

From Wikipedia on Nihilism:

Nihilism (pron.: /ˈnaɪ.ɨlɪzəm/ or /ˈniː.ɨlɪzəm/; from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more putatively meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1] Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism can also take epistemological or metaphysical/ontological forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible, or that reality does not actually exist.

It also mentions that some have identified movements such as Futurism and deconstruction as "nihilistic", and that some religious figures have asserted that postmodernity and aspects of modernity, to the extent that they reject theism, entails nihilism.

From Wikipedia on Nietzsche:

Nietzsche approaches the problem of nihilism as a deeply personal one, stating that this problem of the modern world is a problem that has "become conscious" in him.[132] Furthermore, he emphasises both the danger of nihilism and the possibilities it offers, as seen in his statement that "I praise, I do not reproach, [nihilism's] arrival. I believe it is one of the greatest crises, a moment of the deepest self-reflection of humanity. Whether man recovers from it, whether he becomes master of this crisis, is a question of his strength!"[133] According to Nietzsche, it is only when nihilism is overcome that a culture can have a true foundation upon which to thrive. He wished to hasten its coming only so that he could also hasten its ultimate departure.

What are your thoughts on nihilism? Do you agree with Nietzsche?

 

[yakherder]

I hate to quote cheesy movie lines (I didn't even like Matrix 3 that much), but Neo's answer to Agent Smith pretty much sums up my belief on the matter.

I'm not religious, and I think morality is often just a disguise for fear. If we weren't afraid to die, would we have ever bothered to define murder as being immoral? Right and wrong has nothing to do with it. We define it based off the needs of our survival, and morality has adapted to fit that need. There is no innate higher purpose to anything. In that respect, I suppose you could say I have some nihilistic tendencies. The difference, and the thing which I would say prevents me from being defined as a nihilist, is that I do in fact believe that I have a purpose, even if that purpose is one that I chose somewhat arbitrarily.

I don't believe Nietzsche was wrong, but I don't think he was looking at the bigger picture either. He says "it is only when nihilism is overcome that a culture can have a true foundation upon which to thrive," but you can't overcome nihilistic thoughts any more than you can overcome the belief that there is no god, the realization that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, or the knowledge that things or concepts are only valuable if we choose to define them as valuable. But if being aware of these things is indeed a problem, mother nature will eventually take care of that problem for us. Maybe we will 'evolve' culturally (i.e. religious fanatics will kill us all), maybe we will evolve physically (those of us who are, for whatever reason, incapable of nihilism will have a survival advantage), or we will all die and something else will take our place. If nihilism is not a problem, then we'll learn to live with it.

 

[das_nut]

 

[Second Summer]

I hate to quote cheesy movie lines (I didn't even like Matrix 3 that much), but Neo's answer to Agent Smith pretty much sums up my belief on the matter.

"Because I choose to"? What sort of lame answer is that? Any 6-year old will immediately see right through it and reply with a relentless "Why?" (Why do you choose to?) I suppose maybe what he really meant to say was: "Because I want to", as in the hard-wired will to live, like you said:

We define it based off the needs of our survival, and morality has adapted to fit that need.

And there you're in good company, with e.g. Arthur Schopenhauer, the great German philosopher:

Schopenhauer, a reader of both Kant and Hegel, criticized their logical optimism and the belief that individual morality could be determined by society and reason. Schopenhauer believed that humans were motivated by only their own basic desires, or Wille zum Leben ("Will to Live"), which directed all of mankind. [...] To Schopenhauer, the Will is a malignant,[30] metaphysical existence which controls not only the actions of individual, intelligent agents, but ultimately all observable phenomena; an evil to be terminated via mankind's duties: asceticism and chastity.

(From Arthur Schopenhauer: Philosophy of the Will (Wikipedia)) (Though Nietzsche (and I!) would fervently oppose the last part about The Will being malignant.)

There is no innate higher purpose to anything. In that respect, I suppose you could say I have some nihilistic tendencies. The difference, and the thing which I would say prevents me from being defined as a nihilist, is that I do in fact believe that I have a purpose, even if that purpose is one that I chose somewhat arbitrarily.

Right, so what you're saying it that there is no objective higher purpose or moral reference-point, only a subjective one. Life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value? That is exactly what nihilism entails! You're a nihilist, just admit it!

I don't believe Nietzsche was wrong, but I don't think he was looking at the bigger picture either. He says "it is only when nihilism is overcome that a culture can have a true foundation upon which to thrive," but you can't overcome nihilistic thoughts any more than you can overcome the belief that there is no god, the realization that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, or the knowledge that things or concepts are only valuable if we choose to define them as valuable. But if being aware of these things is indeed a problem, mother nature will eventually take care of that problem for us. Maybe we will 'evolve' culturally (i.e. religious fanatics will kill us all), maybe we will evolve physically (those of us who are, for whatever reason, incapable of nihilism will have a survival advantage), or we will all die and something else will take our place. If nihilism is not a problem, then we'll learn to live with it.

Well, I suspect what Nietzsche hoped was that mankind would overcome nihilism (i.e. the perceived morality vacuum after Christianity's defeat) as the most influential cultural force and replace it with something better rather than preventing us from ever having any nihilistic thoughts whatsoever.

 

[mlp]

I don't think that life has a purpose; it just is.

I don't think that morality has nothing to do with right or wrong. Although I have no interest in the continuation of my own life (apart from concern as to what would happen to those lives who depend on me) and no fear of death, I recognize that other individuals do actively want to live, and IMO it is intrinsically wrong to take life from them.

I haven't read anything by Nietsche in many years. I do remember thinking that he and other nihilist writers/philosophers appeared to be pretty tied up in their own egos and sense of intellectual superiority, to the extent that I thought that I would be likely to smack them if ever forced to spend any considerable time with them.

 

[Pickle Juice]

I sorta went through questioning this stuff as a teenager, after I decided atheism was the most sensible course. Once you give up the idea that there is some intelligent entity in charge of things you do start to wonder if there is any meaning to being alive, any purpose.

After a while I decided that if there was a purpose to life, it is to live it fully, in the present, and to find joy in simply being alive at every moment. I think animals are like this. People argue with me when they ask why dolphins jump out of the water like they do, because I say "they do it for the sheer joy of being able to. Wouldn't you do that all the time if you could? I would." and they don't like that idea, for some reason. Animals don't worry about past or future, they simply live from moment to moment, taking joy whenever they can.

I never went through a nihilistic stage, so it was never there for me to overcome. I dunno what Nietzsche would have to say about that. I do agree with him that it ought to be overcome, because as far as I can tell it is anti-everything that matters. I do hold with the idea that life has intrinsic value, simply because it exists, and I think that refraining from doing something to someone else because you wouldn't want them to do it to you is a perfectly acceptable universal moral.

 

[veganchick]

From Wikipedia on Nihilism:


It also mentions that some have identified movements such as Futurism and deconstruction as "nihilistic", and that some religious figures have asserted that postmodernity and aspects of modernity, to the extent that they reject theism, entails nihilism.

From Wikipedia on Nietzsche:


What are your thoughts on nihilism? Do you agree with Nietzsche?

sounds very complicated to me!

 

[beancounter]

Just because there is no meaning to life, doesn't mean you don't want to live...

I honestly don't understand people who think that life has to have meaning in order for it to be worthwhile to live. Existence in and of itself is "reason" enough.

 

[Second Summer]

I sorta went through questioning this stuff as a teenager, after I decided atheism was the most sensible course. Once you give up the idea that there is some intelligent entity in charge of things you do start to wonder if there is any meaning to being alive, any purpose.

After a while I decided that if there was a purpose to life, it is to live it fully, in the present, and to find joy in simply being alive at every moment. I think animals are like this. People argue with me when they ask why dolphins jump out of the water like they do, because I say "they do it for the sheer joy of being able to. Wouldn't you do that all the time if you could? I would." and they don't like that idea, for some reason. Animals don't worry about past or future, they simply live from moment to moment, taking joy whenever they can.

Yes, I suspect the quest for objective meaning and purpose is a very human, and in a sense childish, way of thinking. Children are more prone to offer and accept explanations like "it rains because the water wants to get back into the lakes and oceans", as if nature has wants. (At least that is what they said on a TV program I watched one time!) So I guess the question about "the meaning of life" easily meets with explanations of a similar nature. Well, even the question itself reveals that the asker is prone to such thinking. And I completely agree, animals don't appear to sit around and ponder such questions, although I wonder sometimes... Older dogs and cats, they can appear quite philosophical at times. What are they thinking about?

I do hold with the idea that life has intrinsic value, simply because it exists, and I think that refraining from doing something to someone else because you wouldn't want them to do it to you is a perfectly acceptable universal moral.

Yes, (conscious / sentient a.k.a. animal) life is precious. From a completely materialistic perspective, this kind of life is very complex and therefore rarer than many other life forms and inanimate objects, and hence more valuable. And yes, The Golden Rule, that you refer to, is a great foundation, worthy of a separate discussion.