Is veganism a religion?

You still have to believe that animal lives have intrinsic value to the extent that it matters to us. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a pressing reason to avoid exploiting animals.

I know this belief probably sounds intuitively obvious to most people here, almost like a fact, but unfortunately I don't think it properly fits in the category of facts. It's not a 2+2=4 kind of knowledge which you can conclude if you learn basic mathematics. It's not a piece of knowledge like "the Earth is the third planet from the Sun" which can be arrived at through observation and discussion with fellow observers.

Instead, I think it's knowledge you most often arrive at through subjective experience combined with empathy. Maybe after playing with pet dogs or cats, a young child comes to the realisation that they are really fond of dogs and cats. That they see themselves in the cat/dog. That they are fundamentally alike. That in the same way they want to protect their friends and family from harm and suffering, they want the same protection for their pets. And then they realise their cat or dog is not much different from other animals. And so on.

However, this isn't knowledge that can be passed on to other people as easily as fact-type knowledge.
Yes it's true - but if we think about any matter like this, then anything we have any opinion about can be considered as a belief and thus can get people accused of following it religiously.

If one does not beat their children, is this because of a belief that nobody should be exposed to physical punishment? Would people debate that not beating your kids is a religion?
If one does not own slaves, is this because of a belief that taking human beings for "speaking tools" would be just unacceptable and inhumane? Would this start a debate about how not owning slaves is a religion?
If one does not get involved in online trolling, is this because of a belief that using internet anonimity for such purposes would be a very cowardly and pathetic thing to do? Would people discuss that staying away from deliberately annoying others is a religion, since you have to believe you have no valid reasons to make other people irritated?

I hope this was not too offensive or hurtful.

Yes, for most of us this goes without any further explanation, but for many indoctrinated carnists it really looks like a religion - or sometimes they would even accuse us of being in a religious cult. Somewhere I read "when I went vegan, people kept asking me if I'd joined a cult - I told them I had just left one".

This is true, subjective experience and empathy is needed for getting the idea of veganism.
Very good that you mention cats and dogs - there are many people who consider themselves to be animal lovers because they share their lives with cats and dogs, yet they are not concerned about eating meat, eggs and dairy. Speciesism at its worst.
Children are indeed very open - until they become indoctrinated and unlearn this openness and empathy.

Yeah, I think all of us have experienced this problem: this knowledge and understanding is much harder to pass on to others than any other kind of knowledge. Veganism actually contradicts everything we grew up with and believed to be alright.
 
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Yes it's true - but if we think about any matter like this, then anything we have any opinion about can be considered as a belief and thus can get people accused of following it religiously.
I disagree. That sounds like the sort of thinking which leads to the claim there is no objective truth, that there are alternative truths, that evolution is just a "theory" with no more weight than Intelligent Design or whatever you think the Bible says on the topic.
If one does not beat their children, is this because of a belief that nobody should be exposed to physical punishment? Would people debate that not beating your kids is a religion?
To be clear: I'm not saying veganism is a religion. Clearly, it's not. No reasonable person would argue this. I'm just saying veganism rests on a fundamental belief, or perhaps you could more accurately call it a conviction. And I don't think that's really a problem. But I think it's important that we acknowledge this for us to better understand what we're up against when advocating for veganism and animal rights.

You can prove that the Earth is a planet orbiting the sun, that the Earth is not flat, that humans evolved from other species. You can even give evidence for the truthfulness of human-induced climate breakdown, even though it's complicated and won't convince everyone.

However, you can't in the same way prove a statements such as "animals deserve rights" or "animal lives have intrinsic value to the extent that they deserve moral consideration". Those are statements about subjective value, so they are by nature beliefs/convictions. (And in fact the case would be no different if you replaced "animal" with "human" in those statements.)
 
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I think the philosophers don't even count Zen Buddhism as a religion.
I read quite a bit about Buddhism a while back.

Definitely one of the least worst religions. But the whole karma and re-incarnation stuff is yet more woo woo nonsense.

I remember an old England Football team manager, Glen Hoddle, got into trouble for suggesting that disabled people today were paying for misdeeds in previous lives...

So, whilst it's fairly benign and overall fairly positive , things like that can really stir up the doo-doo :)
 
I disagree. That sounds like the sort of thinking which leads to the claim there is no objective truth, that there are alternative truths, that evolution is just a "theory" with no more weight than Intelligent Design or whatever you think the Bible says on the topic.

To be clear: I'm not saying veganism is a religion. Clearly, it's not. No reasonable person would argue this. I'm just saying veganism rests on a fundamental belief, or perhaps you could more accurately call it a conviction. And I don't think that's really a problem. But I think it's important that we acknowledge this for us to better understand what we're up against when advocating for veganism and animal rights.

You can prove that the Earth is a planet orbiting the sun, that the Earth is not flat, that humans evolved from other species. You can even give evidence for the truthfulness of human-induced climate breakdown, even though it's complicated and won't convince everyone.

However, you can't in the same way prove a statements such as "animals deserve rights" or "animal lives have intrinsic value to the extent that they deserve moral consideration". Those are statements about subjective value, so they are by nature beliefs/convictions. (And in fact the case would be no different if you replaced "animal" with "human" in those statements.)
Sorry? I am not quite sure what part of my post you disagree with.
Yes, I do think this kind of thinking is exactly what tends to lead this kind of generalization.

Please be easy about it: I have not assumed that you think veganism to be a religion. 'Tis obvious from your posts.
Indeed, calling it a conviction is much better than taking it for a belief. And yes, what's the norm for us seems to be a kind of extremism, and we might end up with better results if we take this into consideration when advocating for veganism.

I see there are quite a few people who would not let themselves be convinced by facts and evidences! For many, it is way too much comfortable to stick to what they are used to. This is why it is hard to make them re-evaluate their opinions.

That is the main problem with activism. Morality is subjective (ironically, there are many carnists who use this as an excuse), and this is why it cannot be proven that violence against the helpless ones (animals or humans) is wrong. I am pretty sure you experienced people reacting in a cynical manner multiple times! I did.
 
I read quite a bit about Buddhism a while back.

Definitely one of the least worst religions. But the whole karma and re-incarnation stuff is yet more woo woo nonsense.

I remember an old England Football team manager, Glen Hoddle, got into trouble for suggesting that disabled people today were paying for misdeeds in previous lives...

So, whilst it's fairly benign and overall fairly positive , things like that can really stir up the doo-doo :)
Same here. Many of the teachings have proven to be very much useful, no matter what kind of background, religion - or lack of one - one is coming from. I would not follow the teachings religiously, and please do allow me to stay away from retreats, practising Dharma and meditation groups - but the attitude does make sense!

IMHO, the Buddha was an extraordinarily sane lad who had very realistic and down-to-earth thoughts - and he communicated these thoughts using the language and concepts that were common in that time and place, so that even the most simple, illiterate people would understand what he meant. AFAIK, he was absolutely against speculating about one's former incarnations, and advised people against the mystical woo woo's of that time (fortune telling, astrology, magical blah and so on).
And he explained karma as nothing more - or less - than our actions leading to further happenings, we cannot do anything without consequences, so it's better to do things that don't lead to bad consequences.

Speaking such hurtful and unjusticeful nonsense obviously leads to one getting into trouble. That's not a good consequence, so it is better to refrain from such statements. We can comprehend this without any mystical woo woo, can't we?
 
Same here. Many of the teachings have proven to be very much useful, no matter what kind of background, religion - or lack of one - one is coming from. I would not follow the teachings religiously, and please do allow me to stay away from retreats, practising Dharma and meditation groups - but the attitude does make sense!

IMHO, the Buddha was an extraordinarily sane lad who had very realistic and down-to-earth thoughts - and he communicated these thoughts using the language and concepts that were common in that time and place, so that even the most simple, illiterate people would understand what he meant. AFAIK, he was absolutely against speculating about one's former incarnations, and advised people against the mystical woo woo's of that time (fortune telling, astrology, magical blah and so on).
And he explained karma as nothing more - or less - than our actions leading to further happenings, we cannot do anything without consequences, so it's better to do things that don't lead to bad consequences.

Speaking such hurtful and unjusticeful nonsense obviously leads to one getting into trouble. That's not a good consequence, so it is better to refrain from such statements. We can comprehend this without any mystical woo woo, can't we?
Well indeed. Although I have nothing personally against meditation...which I myself find pretty beneficial. There is something to be said for self control, lowering the heart-rate and just being in the moment.
I almost hate myself when I lose control. But my resting heart-rate is just around 50-55 generally, which I am happy with(helped by meditation).
But yeah. Start wibbling on about spirituality or chakra... I switch off. :)

Ho hum.
 
Well indeed. Although I have nothing personally against meditation...which I myself find pretty beneficial. There is something to be said for self control, lowering the heart-rate and just being in the moment.
I almost hate myself when I lose control. But my resting heart-rate is just around 50-55 generally, which I am happy with(helped by meditation).
But yeah. Start wibbling on about spirituality or chakra... I switch off. :)

Ho hum.
I don't have any, either. Getting into that meditative state o' mind is very useful, and if meditation helps you with maintaining such a great heart-rate, good for you! However, I usually failed to get meditative when I actually tried to meditate. When I play the guitar or do some work around the house, that's always a meditative experience, since it leads to - and assumes - self-control and just being in the moment as you put it.
Losing control is always undesirable - mainly because of what it might lead to. But being close to self-hate is of no use.
 
I think the philosophers don't even count Zen Buddhism as a religion.
There are many religious versions of it. Much of the fluffy language was borrowed from religion as it is the hindus and other religious folk that the Buddha addressed. It's all riddles and jokes, and once you get it, you are enlightened, in a state of nirvana, awakened, you just get it all. The point is that all expressions in all languages, all beliefs, even in hard science and empirical observation, THAT is the fluff. Zen is Buddhism + Daoism + a bit of Confusianism.

ADDENDUM
Veganism is a bit like that, a singular principle, globally applied, ahimsa, non-harm. Most agree that we ought not to harm innocent individuals, but most also do, directly or indirectly. Vegans just apply the principle properly, to all sentient life. Any other ideas are individual vegans' additional seasoning, and that's fine. But the core is simple and uncontroversial. The carnist must either deny the non-harm principle or suffer the cognitive dissonance.
 
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I don't have any, either. Getting into that meditative state o' mind is very useful, and if meditation helps you with maintaining such a great heart-rate, good for you! However, I usually failed to get meditative when I actually tried to meditate. When I play the guitar or do some work around the house, that's always a meditative experience, since it leads to - and assumes - self-control and just being in the moment as you put it.
Losing control is always undesirable - mainly because of what it might lead to. But being close to self-hate is of no use.
Trying to meditate, now there's yer problem, as Yoda said. Yes, flow state in music or other activities, like walking, is meditation. Very Dao.
 
Religions are paths to the Truth and so are philosophies and so is science. Each path aims to seek the Truth.

Veganism is also a path to the Truth. But it's not a religion because it doesn't emphasize worship of supernatural beings.

Just like religion is a tool to use to come to Truth, veganism is also a tool; a way to compassion. Truth is compassionate, so veganism is a path to Truth as it emphasizes compassion.

We are all seeking Truth and religion is ways to it and so is science and philosophy and so is veganism.

So veganism is not a religion but it's like religion - it's a path in life that seeks Truth and compassion.
 
Religions are paths to the Truth and so are philosophies and so is science. Each path aims to seek the Truth.

"Religions are paths to the Truth" is about the biggest lie anyone ever told.
People ignore truths because of religion. Religion is a path to indoctrination, brain washing and sticking your head in the sand.
So veganism is not a religion but it's like religion - it's a path in life that seeks Truth and compassion.

Veganism is not anything to do with "seeking truth". It is entirely about compassion and ethical behaviour toward our fellow earthlings...
 
"Religions are paths to the Truth" is about the biggest lie anyone ever told.
People ignore truths because of religion. Religion is a path to indoctrination, brain washing and sticking your head in the sand.


Veganism is not anything to do with "seeking truth". It is entirely about compassion and ethical behaviour toward our fellow earthlings...
Thank you for sharing your honest opinions. In some ways I agree with you. Religions can hold negative feelings for some people.

How I see it, is those negative feelings arise because of people who claim to be religious but are abusing their religion. They lose the focus on their true meaning, their core message. I've seen this is my own religion Islam, where men oppress women and think Islam is the only true religion, and who preach hellfire. I hate that because it doesn't get to the core message - peace through surrender to God/Truth/Love/Compassion. These people are poor examples and have tainted religion in the eyes of others.

Being compassionate through being vegan, or in any other way, is seeking the Truth because Truth is compassionate. God is not a policeman like those bigots preach, but a God of Love. He wants us to be compassionate towards our fellow earthlings. So to seek Truth, we follow the path of compassion (and all forms of good). That is the search - for Ultimate Being (God). This is the true religion spoken about in all religions core message. Not those bigots messages people think is religion.
 
"Religions are paths to the Truth" is about the biggest lie anyone ever told.
People ignore truths because of religion. Religion is a path to indoctrination, brain washing and sticking your head in the sand.


Veganism is not anything to do with "seeking truth". It is entirely about compassion and ethical behaviour toward our fellow earthlings...
Religions are not paths to scientific truth, of course. But in a broader sense of the term, even as an atheist myself, I can get behind the statements that religions, veganism and philosophy are all in a certain sense seeking Truth or paths to Truth. Religions might not be paths to "my truth", which includes scientific truth, but I respect that they might be so for other people.
 
Religions are paths to the Truth and so are philosophies and so is science. Each path aims to seek the Truth.

Veganism is also a path to the Truth. But it's not a religion because it doesn't emphasize worship of supernatural beings.

Just like religion is a tool to use to come to Truth, veganism is also a tool; a way to compassion. Truth is compassionate, so veganism is a path to Truth as it emphasizes compassion.

We are all seeking Truth and religion is ways to it and so is science and philosophy and so is veganism.

So veganism is not a religion but it's like religion - it's a path in life that seeks Truth and compassion.
Religions are about adhering to beliefs that are from faith. If it were truth we would have evidence.
Veganism is an ethical choice we make that is outside our cultural norms.
 
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Thank you for sharing your honest opinions. In some ways I agree with you. Religions can hold negative feelings for some people.
And I am sure many people gain positive feelings from faith.
It isn't really my point.
How I see it, is those negative feelings arise because of people who claim to be religious but are abusing their religion. They lose the focus on their true meaning, their core message. I've seen this is my own religion Islam, where men oppress women and think Islam is the only true religion, and who preach hellfire. I hate that because it doesn't get to the core message - peace through surrender to God/Truth/Love/Compassion. These people are poor examples and have tainted religion in the eyes of others.
Isn't this what most people claim "Oh, they are misunderstanding the religion"?
And ultimately, most of the religious books, if read literally, contain much that is violent, suppressive and "information that is apt for the time they were written - but less so now"

If I follow a book, and it gives quite clear instructions on how to purchase and treat a slave, am I a "poor example" of a follower of said book if I go out and purchase a slave?


Being compassionate through being vegan, or in any other way, is seeking the Truth because Truth is compassionate. God is not a policeman like those bigots preach, but a God of Love. He wants us to be compassionate towards our fellow earthlings. So to seek Truth, we follow the path of compassion (and all forms of good). That is the search - for Ultimate Being (God). This is the true religion spoken about in all religions core message. Not those bigots messages people think is religion.
I don't think that truth (with small t) is compassionate. Nature is extremely cruel and violent.
If you are using capital t, then for me as a purely logical being, that doesn't exist...any more than any of the thousands of gods that man has named throughout history.

I simply want to live my life in what I think is a compassionate and empathetic way...When I see pain in others, I feel a portion of it myself.
That includes our brothers and sisters, the other great apes...gorilla, bonobo etc, and our cousins the other mammals, birds, fish, insects etc.

I have no need to choose an intangible deity to lean on to understand this.
 
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Religions are not paths to scientific truth, of course. But in a broader sense of the term, even as an atheist myself, I can get behind the statements that religions, veganism and philosophy are all in a certain sense seeking Truth or paths to Truth. Religions might not be paths to "my truth", which includes scientific truth, but I respect that they might be so for other people.
Is there such a thing as a scientific truth? I thought claim to a truth was only possible in the domains of philosophy and religion.
 
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"Religions are paths to the Truth" is about the biggest lie anyone ever told.
People ignore truths because of religion. Religion is a path to indoctrination, brain washing and sticking your head in the sand.


Agree with you that religion can keep people away from the Truth, that religions often have false conceptions of God that don't make sense from a theological perspective, and that although several religions have been influenced by philosophy they tend to seek an approach to the truth that is not aided by reason but through way of life, religious practices and attaining an altered state of mind, nevertheless, at the core, they are still supposed to aim at the truth.



Veganism is not anything to do with "seeking truth". It is entirely about compassion and ethical behaviour toward our fellow earthlings...
Agreed, it looks more like an activist movement and a philosophy focused on ethics regarding how we relate with other animals.
 
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Is there such a thing as a scientific truth? I thought claim to a truth was only possible in the domains of philosophy and religion.

If something is a fact, then it is by definition, true. i.e. A truth.
Science is how we find truth. The empirical method. Logic.
Philosophy is about ideas, concepts and how they hang together.
Religion promotes faith in non provable claims outside the realms of reality.
 
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