Is this forum just a place to vent and laugh?

[beancounter]

An interesting side note and personal experience about the bot comments - On a Doctor Who fan forum, about 1-2 years ago, I expressed my disappointment in Jenna Coleman's Doctor Who character.

I was immediately accused of being a bot....

 

[Mischief]

If I found a story that went against the expected liberal narrative (e.g. someone used a gun to save someone’s life), I wouldn’t feel comfortable posting it on this forum incase it led to people questioning my motives or getting into an argument with me. I suspect that other people have also hesitated and not posted opinions/articles here that they knew wouldn’t be popular, and have posted instead other opinions at other times that they knew would fit the expectation. I feel this is a problem.

But that's the very nature of debate - that people are going to disagree with you.

If you want to engage in debate, you have to expect people to disagree with you, perhaps vehemently, and you have to be prepared to explain and justify your position.

Debate is a way to hone hone your own thinking processes.

It's not for everyone, of course. Some people aren't interested; some people find any disagreement too emotionally fraught; some people find certain topics too emotionally fraught.

I like intellectual debate where you can say controversial things (within reason) without provoking an emotional reaction. I think I should be able to say something controversial that goes against the majority belief. Anyone who believes that eating meat is morally questionable ought to be able to relate to this. But anytime I try to step slightly out of the mainstream liberal opinion on this forum with a controversial opinion invariably either someone attacks me and generates heat, or I just get ignored. It doesn’t seem to lead to a good intellectual debate.

I don't think it's realistic to expect debate to be free of emotion. With the exception of people who are paid to argue certain viewpoints (lawyers, political pundits on cable news, etc.) and students taking certain classes, people engage in debate precisely because they care about the issue being debated.

The funny thing is that I get the sense that people here on Veggie Views are very smart, more so than other forums. And yet there is fairly limited real intellectual debate in the sense of a polite, productive exchange of different views. When people have shared some opinions with me here, I’ve actually learned new facts, changed my opinions, and hopefully become a bit better person. I’ve actually learned from you all. But I also feel it’s a waste that we have so little real intellectual debate of substance and such exchanges are rare.

Do you feel you are doing more than most to try to get such exchanges started?

Another problem is that there are likely very few spaces on the internet where conservative vegetarians can discuss and feel comfortable. I wouldn’t be surprised if as much as 20% of the people on this forum are more conservative than liberal, and just know to keep quiet on certain topics and avoid the political threads.

I don't have any feeling for what the political leanings are of people who don't don't post in the political threads.

If you think that there are conservatives on here who need a safe space to talk conservative politics, I for one wouldn't have a problem with a "Conservatives Only" area.

 

[Mischief]

One of the few conservative views I have is that I'm pro-life. I don't buy into most of what usually goes with that (e.g., opposition to birth control and same-sex marriage; the belief that God required someone to die for your sins). I would have thought that being vegetarian or vegan because one cared about all animals would fit easily with this, but it ain't necessarily so.

As someone who became pro choice in sixth or seventh grade, I find the state of discourse around abortion rights in this country terribly simplified and disappointing, and ultimately frustrating. There's an inability on both sides to believe that anyone on the opposite side could be motivated by anything other than bad intentions.

Edited to clarify that this is not directed at you, Tom. It's directed equally at the "you just want to control women's bodies" crowd and the "baby killers!" crowd.

 

[Andy_T]

Some time ago, I asked myself a hypothetical question “Who would I rather have dinner with, a steak-eating BLM(“Black Lives Matter”) advocate or a vegan Trump supporter?” and realized after about 25 milliseconds of deliberations that there was no way in hell I would consider sitting down for dinner with a Trump supporter, even if he was a lifelong vegan inviting me to my dream vegan restaurant.

While it is awesome to be part of a virtual community of (presumed) vegans and vegetarians, I can (and have to) live with non-vegans, but I have used up all my tolerance for racists and bigots (and, unfortunately, I can only see most Trump supporters as that, or, at the very least as people who have no problems with racists and bigots).

I can see that many people in the U.S. are motivated by greed and/or fear, as this is what they are bombarded with from media 24/7, but that IMO is not a good enough reason to be ok with Trump and his followers.

Also, I have become wary of the idea of engaging Republican supporters with the idea of convincing them to a “non-partisan” approach to help all people, mainly from the experience of seeing about 51 Republican senators and about 235 Republican house representatives - with maybe 3 notable exceptions - voting as a solid block against progress on virtually all important decisions during the last 2 years.

 

[beancounter]

And thus we have come full circle, and are back to square one.

Things aren't always so black and white. There are plenty of Republican Never-Trumpers and independents who have conservative views, but can't stand Trump. But of course, anyone with conservative views is labeled a Trump supporter, which prevents any type of constructive dialog.

Some time ago, I asked myself a hypothetical question “Who would I rather have dinner with, a steak-eating BLM(“Black Lives Matter”) advocate or a vegan Trump supporter?” and realized after about 25 milliseconds of deliberations that there was no way in hell I would consider sitting down for dinner with a Trump supporter, even if he was a lifelong vegan inviting me to my dream vegan restaurant.

While it is awesome to be part of a virtual community of (presumed) vegans and vegetarians, I can (and have to) live with non-vegans, but I have used up all my tolerance for racists and bigots (and, unfortunately, I can only see most Trump supporters as that, or, at the very least as people who have no problems with racists and bigots).

I can see that many people in the U.S. are motivated by greed and/or fear, as this is what they are bombarded with from media 24/7, but that IMO is not a good enough reason to be ok with Trump and his followers.

Also, I have become wary of the idea of engaging Republican supporters with the idea of convincing them to a “non-partisan” approach to help all people, mainly from the experience of seeing about 51 Republican senators and about 235 Republican house representatives - with maybe 3 notable exceptions - voting as a solid block against progress on virtually all important decisions during the last 2 years.

 

[Mischief]

But of course, anyone with conservative views is labeled a Trump supporter, which prevents any type of constructive dialog.

Since you quoted Andy, I assume that your comments are directed at his post.

If so, please point out where he said what you are claiming, because I sure don't see it.

 

[silva]

Since you quoted Andy, I assume that your comments are directed at his post.

If so, please point out where he said what you are claiming, because I sure don't see it.

I think it's this-

Also, I have become wary of the idea of engaging Republican supporters with the idea of convincing them to a “non-partisan” approach to help all people, mainly from the experience of seeing about 51 Republican senators and about 235 Republican house representatives - with maybe 3 notable exceptions - voting as a solid block against progress on virtually all important decisions during the last 2 years.

Can't say he's wrong

 

[Mischief]

I think it's this-

Also, I have become wary of the idea of engaging Republican supporters with the idea of convincing them to a “non-partisan” approach to help all people, mainly from the experience of seeing about 51 Republican senators and about 235 Republican house representatives - with maybe 3 notable exceptions - voting as a solid block against progress on virtually all important decisions during the last 2 years.

Can't say he's wrong

Ah, so Beancounter is saying that the people who say "I support everything that trump wants, and will do what is in my power to get it implemented, but I don't support trump" are not really trump supporters, and shouldn't be labelled as such?

 

[beancounter]

Ah, so Beancounter is saying that the people who say "I support everything that trump wants, and will do what is in my power to get it implemented, but I don't support trump" are not really trump supporters, and shouldn't be labelled as such?

Trump isn't the Republican party. Politicians have different motivations and priorities than the voters. They are not a homogeneous group. It is possible for people to hold conservative views without supporting Trump.

For example, you can simultaneously be pro life and not support racist.

Do you really think that it's reasonable for someone with life long conservative views to abandon those views because of one president who will be there for no more than 8 years?

 

[Mischief]

. Even here, I’m not always comfortable talking about certain things...the fact that I’m a practicing Catholic...I feel like mostly everyone here is anti religion, especially anti-Catholic and anti Christian. and yet it’s weird that I don’t relate at all to today’s Christians.

I can see where you would get that impression. I think, though, it's not as bad as it used to be?

For myself, having been agnostic/atheistic since second grade, I don't think of myself as anti-religious. In addition to motivating the production of some of the greatest music and art, much social good has been done in the name of religion, and, of course, religion has provided comfort to untold millions throughout human history.

To those who blame religion for the evil that has been done in the name of various religions, I have always responded that the evil (as well as the good) comes from the hearts of the people. People are drawn to the religious beliefs that best mirror their own inclinations.

As an atheist, I am embarrassed at rude many atheists are to people of faith.

I also feel like there are a lot of anti-children views here where I think babies and kids are the bomb.

I agree that I have seen anti-child views here. I don't really understand them; I like/tolerate/dislike children on an individual basis, just like wrt humans in general. (I do, however, feel that they are in need of special protection and consideration, since they are, like nonhuman animals, at a distinct disadvantage vis-a-vis adult humans.)

 

[Mischief]

Trump isn't the Republican party.

But the Republican Party has become the party of trump. It's not just me saying that; the people who have left the GOP over its failure to stand up to trump are saying that, as are some of the people who are still hanging on.

Politicians have different motivations and priorities than the voters. They are not a homogeneous group. It is possible for people to hold conservative views without supporting Trump.

Yes.

For example, you can simultaneously be pro life and not support racist.

Sure. And your point is....

Do you really think that it's reasonable for someone with life long conservative views to abandon those views because of one president who will be there for no more than 8 years?

I have always thought it is reasonable for anyone to abandon conservative views at any time.

I don't, however, expect anyone to abandon those views based on who is president.

But you will recall that Andy was specifically referring to the Republican members of Congress. What long cherished conservative ideals do you think they are upholding? Fiscal conservatism? Reduction of the much dreaded national debt? Free trade? Protection from meddling in this country's elections by historically antagonistic powers? Protection of our military positions? Leadership by this country in international alliances?

Tell me again how Republicans in Congress are upholding long cherished conservative ideals, rather than propping up trump.

 

[Andy_T]

There are plenty of Republican Never-Trumpers and independents who have conservative views, but can't stand Trump.

No, my comment was specifically targeted at Republican politicians who loudly claim that they are against Trump, that they want to act as "checks and balances" on his policies, but continue to vote with him in every vote on Senate or House floor - the single notable exception being the "ACA repeal".

That would be very much my definitin of a "homogeneous group" (of hypocrites, to be precise), if they all publicly claim to be doing something different, but literally do the very same thing 99 % of the time.

I am specifically talking about the likes of Jeff Flake, who went to the extent of publishing a book titled "The Conscience of a Conservative" in which he explains why his conscience does not let him stand by and watch what Trump is doing, while in real life doing exactly that. Sorry if I have a hard time to stand Conservative politicians, and - possibly even more so - the people who continue to put them in power.

And yes, I specifically wrote "Trump supporters", because there are, unfortunately, far too many of those out there. And violently shaking your head in disapproval of his policies ... while at the same time voting for him and his minions in the voting booth ... does make you one, sorry.

 

[Andy_T]

And, just for the record, I am personally strongly opposed to abortion and would never consider having it done myself. Luckily, I am in a position that I am financially settled enough that if I were to have an additional child, I would not have problems with that (I have still taken the most practical possible action to make sure it could not happen).

At the same time I also realize that the majority of women considering it are not doing it for fun and giggles and that some have very strong reasons for undergoing the procedure that weigh much heavier than other considerations. I am very much opposed to taking that option away from desperate women.

To anybody who is seriously interested in a thoughtful discussion of that very complex topic, I would suggest to read the excerpt on the subject from Sherry F. Colb's wonderful book "Mind if I order the Cheeseburger and other questions People ask Vegans":

Excerpt from "Mind If I Order the Cheeseburger? And Other Questions People Ask Vegans" by Sherry F. Colb

 

[KLS52]

I can see where you would get that impression. I think, though, it's not as bad as it used to be?

It absolutely is not how it used to be. I think the problem for me, personally, is while certain things may bother me, I absolutely don't want anyone to feel like they can't speak freely or say what's on their mind. I get why people are so against religion and I have no issue with them expressing it.

I guess my trigger is going back to the old days when it used to be commonplace for people to make fun by saying things like "believing in the invisible man" or "ohhhh you're making the baby Jesus cry"... I don't see the need for remarks like that, and I guess, it's my issue because I can honestly say I like everyone here, even when I disagree with them. And I would never take something so personal and make a joke about it because I don't like to hurt the feelings of people I like. It's kind of contradictory, I know, lol. I think I side more with wanting people being able to be free to say what they want. I don't like censorship in general. And yet I censor myself on a daily basis because of other people's feelings. *shrug*

I'd rather have the free speech and handle my own feelings. I do much better with that now, anyway. I hope this makes sense.

 

[KLS52]

I have always thought it is reasonable for anyone to abandon conservative views at any time.

Took me 56 years, lol. I'm 66 now.

I should say "some" conservative views because, while my oldest daughter (conservative) thinks I'm 100% liberal, I don't really think I am completely. I think I'm a mixture with probably a leaning more to the left than to the right.

 

[silva]

Took me 56 years, lol. I'm 66 now.

I should say "some" conservative views because, while my oldest daughter (conservative) thinks I'm 100% liberal, I don't really think I am completely. I think I'm a mixture with probably a leaning more to the left than to the right.

Sounds we're just on opposite sides of the fence. We can see each other, talk, help and often go over to other side for a better visit! It's not like we both moved to opposite sides of our property so we never have to deal with each other!
That's what I want in our government.

 

[silva]

I mean it seems as easy as the analogy of a restaurant that serves everyone. First and foremost see that everyone can eat, if there are more funds available serve the options people like. If funds are missing at least keep allergans away

 

[KLS52]

Sounds we're just on opposite sides of the fence. We can see each other, talk, help and often go over to other side for a better visit! It's not like we both moved to opposite sides of our property so we never have to deal with each other!
That's what I want in our government.

Haha I love this.

 

[Mischief]

the squeakiest wheels at VV, tend to be on the extreme Left.

I'm kind of curious as to whom among current posters you consider to be "extreme Left." If I recall correctly, you were a pretty ardent Bernie supporter, which puts you to the left of many of us.

 

[Mischief]

I totally agree. All the members who have tried to voice a different point of view have left the forum.

So have many, many who were on the left of the political spectrum.

I think that, if you looked at it dispassionately, you would see that people of various political persuasions leave in roughly the same proportions as they were represented on here in the first place.