Can you explain further? I do try and reduce my global footprint and it was as a direct result of being vegan that made me examine the way I live. It isn't a part of veganism as it was a term invented by Donald Watson in the 1940s so worrying about environmental matters wouldn't have been an important issue back then. What do you mean about pet ownership, most (all?) vegans want to see an end to pet ownership but many of us have rescue animals and they need to eat after all so most of us feed them meat.
HRC report: 70% of vegans stop being vegan.
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Can you explain further? I do try and reduce my global footprint and it was as a direct result of being vegan that made me examine the way I live. It isn't a part of veganism as it was a term invented by Donald Watson in the 1940s so worrying about environmental matters wouldn't have been an important issue back then. What do you mean about pet ownership, most (all?) vegans want to see an end to pet ownership but many of us have rescue animals and they need to eat after all so most of us feed them meat.
flyingsnail
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Environmental issues were an issue in the 1940's and well before so the reason they weren't part of veganism was likely due to their failing to recognize the importance of environmental matters. Some individual vegans may certainly go beyond veganism but my point is that veganism, in itself, has a blind-spot for environmental issues despite the fact that environmental issues have an impact on animal welfare. For example, some products like palm oil have a really poor impact on animal life yet these products are perfectly vegan. So its hard to see animal welfare as driving force behind veganism.
I haven't found that most vegans want to end pet ownership and as with environmental matters issues related to pet ownership aren't address by veganism. But I'm wasn't talking about the end of pet ownership and I was trying not to go into detail. While pet ownership is a bit strange for an abolitionist its not inconsistent for someone motivated by a more utilitarian approach. But if one is primarily motivated by animal welfare, its hard to see how the ownership of a carnivorous animal is consistent with that that. Cats, for example, are brutal towards other animals and will kill for fun (when let outside) and they will also consume numerous animals throughout their life. Why is the live of a cat more valuable than the numerous animals they will end up killing throughout their life?
Most vegans I've met are against pet ownership. I've thought a lot about companion animal ownership. I had my cats before I went vegan and what would I do with them, be irresponsible and let them be adopted out, take them to the vet to "humanely" kill them to save the lives of farm animals, feed them leftover meat from rubbish bins, feed them a vegan diet which may cause health problems? There is no great solution apart from to bring in laws to stop people breeding animals and that won't happen for a along time, if at all.
I don't think veganism has a blind spot for environmental issues, in fact I have learned a lot about the subject since becoming vegan, but it certainly is the case that veganism is primarily about avoiding animal products.
You could say the same about vegetarianism and environmental issues anyway so I don't understand your point. You seem to have a problem with vegans but you are ignoring the inconsistencies in vegetarianism.
I don't think veganism has a blind spot for environmental issues, in fact I have learned a lot about the subject since becoming vegan, but it certainly is the case that veganism is primarily about avoiding animal products.
You could say the same about vegetarianism and environmental issues anyway so I don't understand your point. You seem to have a problem with vegans but you are ignoring the inconsistencies in vegetarianism.
flyingsnail
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That isn't consist with my experience, most vegans I know have pets. But I'm not talking about what most vegans do and don't do, but rather what is and isn't part of veganism as a doctrine and issues related to pet ownership aren't address by veganism despite hinging on a number of animal rights/welfare matters.
You can say this about meat as well, yet vegans avoid it, so why is there an entirely different approach to animal ownership? I think the reason is clear, people enjoy their pets. But pet ownership is not inconsistent, in all cases, to the promotion of animal welfare/rights...it really depends on the specific arguments. In general I don't think there is anything wrong with pet ownership. But some cases are difficult to justify on animal welfare grounds, in particular, those cases that promote more animal suffering. My general point here is that if veganism was really about animal welfare....it would look a lot different than just a list of products you should avoid.
The reason I'm talking about veganism and not vegetarianism is that vegetarianism doesn't pretend to be something its not. It doesn't pretend to be "cruelty-free", it doesn't pretend to be based on animal welfare, it doesn't hijack animal rights/welfare discussions, etc.
As far as the promotion of animal welfare, I prefer promoting vegetarian diets over vegan ones because it avoids some of the inconsistencies of veganism, bad imagine and is much easier to implement in the west and not because I think its ideal. But really I don't make much of an effort to promote vegetarianism, I personally don't eat meat, but I don't think getting some people to be vegetarian is anymore valuable than getting people to eat less animal products as a whole.
^^^ Whoa! I think most vegetarians are quite open about being motivated by animal welfare/rights, and they sometimes point out that it is inconsistent to eat or hunt some animals while evidently loving other animals (and in that sense we vegetarians do sometimes hijack AR/AW discussions). As I see it, vegetarians and vegans are quite similar in this respect- at least more similar to each other than to meat eaters.
Yes, getting many people to reduce their meat consumption might well have as great or greater effect for animals than getting a smaller number to go totally veg, but how willing will people be to do this? When I first started removing milk and egg from my diet, I was making progress, yes- but to be honest, I was using the fact that I "wasn't vegan yet" and was "still just cutting down" as an excuse to eat things whenever I craved them. It wasn't my best effort.
Yes, getting many people to reduce their meat consumption might well have as great or greater effect for animals than getting a smaller number to go totally veg, but how willing will people be to do this? When I first started removing milk and egg from my diet, I was making progress, yes- but to be honest, I was using the fact that I "wasn't vegan yet" and was "still just cutting down" as an excuse to eat things whenever I craved them. It wasn't my best effort.
flyingsnail
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I find that most people are willing, and even interested, in eating less meat and the main issue is that they simply don't know how to prepare meals without meat.
And, yes, many vegetarians are motivated by animal welfare, etc but vegetarianism itself doesn't entail anything other than not eating meat.
I'm not sure if you're serious but maybe because eating meat means the animal has to die.
I have had a number of discussions with vegans online and face to face so it is an issue within veganism. Some vegans have the pets they had before going vegan, some only have rescue animals, some only have pets that can be safely fed a veg diet, some reject any part of the pet and pet food industry and will not have any animals in their home, some feed their pets a vegan diet and so on. There isn't one definitive answer apart from most of us wanting all companion animals to be spayed and neutered and wanting an end to breeding animals as pets.
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i strongly disagree that environmental issues are not part of veganism. in fact, i personally view animal rights/welfare to be a subset of "ethical" environmentalism.
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I'm not sure if you're serious but maybe because eating meat means the animal has to die.
I have had a number of discussions with vegans online and face to face so it is an issue within veganism. Some vegans have the pets they had before going vegan, some only have rescue animals, some only have pets that can be safely fed a veg diet, some reject any part of the pet and pet food industry and will not have any animals in their home, some feed their pets a vegan diet and so on. There isn't one definitive answer apart from most of us wanting all companion animals to be spayed and neutered and wanting an end to breeding animals as pets.
There was a poll with thousands of responses a few years ago and I was shocked to learn that most vegans with canine companions purchased animal flesh-containing dog food. Moreover, the vegan community largely accepts "strict" vegan self-identification for those who purchase large quantities of animal flesh for cats. I find this contradiction to be disturbing. As someone who once purchased cat food that was largely animal flesh, I saw absolutely no difference between myself and a mostly-vegan flexitarian who eats meat occasionally.
LOL, oh you are a troll. I was shocked myself that vegans may have bought meat for their companion animals. I think I may need a sit down with a cup of tea and a vegan biscuit to recover.
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LOL, oh you are a troll. I was shocked myself that vegans may have bought meat for their companion animals. I think I may need a sit down with a cup of tea and a vegan biscuit to recover.
Enjoy the cuppa!
Dogs are not obligate carnivores and do very well on veg*n diets:
V-dog — V-dog
Dogs go vegetarian with Vegedog™
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I never ate much meat so I can't really tell..
I was thinking of cow and horse muck really, but I guess ruminants' **** is much nicer anyway.
flyingsnail
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Perhaps my point didn't come across, but my point was that vegans boycott meat even though there are no laws protecting animals in this regard and there are unlikely to be ones anytime soon. So if vegans really were against animal ownership, why wouldn't they boycott it as well?
This is all to say that pet ownership isn't dealt with in veganism, its up to the individual, which was my point. Someone with 20 cats, all fed commercial cat food, is vegan so long as they avoid all the products that vegans are suppose to avoid. But its unclear how such a person's lifestyle is one that promotes animal welfare.
My overall point here has been that concern for animal welfare and animal rights and veganism are not equivalent, veganism has some huge welfare/rights holes and someone concerned with animal welfare and rights isn't necessarily going to be vegan. In fact, I'd argue that someone primarily concerned with ethical/legal theory is unlikely to be vegan.... at least as commonly defined.
As defined by vegan groups, veganism really has little to do with environmental issues. You can argue that environmental issues should be part of it....but that would require that veganism was based on some sort of ethical principle rather than the avoidance of a class of products.
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ledboots
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Why go vegan? | The Vegan Society
For the environment
From recycling our household rubbish to cycling to work, we're all aware of ways to live a greener life. Yet did you know that one of the most effective ways to lower your carbon footprint is to avoid animal products? Oh, and this goes way beyond the problem of cow flatulence!
From recycling our household rubbish to cycling to work, we're all aware of ways to live a greener life. Yet did you know that one of the most effective ways to lower your carbon footprint is to avoid animal products? Oh, and this goes way beyond the problem of cow flatulence!
http://vegan.org/learn/
Why VEGAN? Veganism, the natural extension of vegetarianism, is an integral component of a cruelty-free lifestyle. Living vegan provides numerous benefits to animals’ lives, to the environment, and to our own health–through a healthy diet and lifestyle.
Green Vegans - Welcome
Green Is The New Red — Activism Is Not Terrorism
Just saying...
flyingsnail
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What are you saying? What you posted doesn't show that veganism, as a doctrine, is concerned with the environment but rather that being vegan may have some positive environmental impacts.
flyingsnail
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Then what is about?
Where is the strawman? Veganism, as defined by vegan groups, is primarily about the avoidance of a particular class of products and is not rooted in any specific ethical, legal or scientific theory. Now, of course, vegans as individuals may have some "ethical impetus" but that doesn't mean veganism as a doctrine does.
