Honey and Ethics

[Rory17]

Can honey ever be ethical? My point of view is that, in general, honey is not vegan and is not ethical because it is stolen; it is taking their food source, and bees are also killed and mistreated in the production of honey. Even if they replace the honey, it is still taking without consent; of course, we can’t ask the bees for their consent, so all taking of any honey from bees is always going to be (bee? Get it?) without their consent.
However, if there was a business that invested in honeybee conservation and was helping the honeybees and helping ensure the survival of the bees and (other?) endangered species, and didn’t kill or otherwise abuse the bees, but just took the honey and replaced it and perhaps even gave them more food in return for the honey, would it be ethical?
I know this is a controversial topic to post in a vegan forum, but I just wanted to know what a vegan view would be here…
Thanks.

 

[No Longer Active]

Can honey ever be ethical? My point of view is that, in general, honey is not vegan and is not ethical because it is stolen; it is taking their food source, and bees are also killed and mistreated in the production of honey. Even if they replace the honey, it is still taking without consent; of course, we can’t ask the bees for their consent, so all taking of any honey from bees is always going to be (bee? Get it?) without their consent.
However, if there was a business that invested in honeybee conservation and was helping the honeybees and helping ensure the survival of the bees and (other?) endangered species, and didn’t kill or otherwise abuse the bees, but just took the honey and replaced it and perhaps even gave them more food in return for the honey, would it be ethical?
I know this is a controversial topic to post in a vegan forum, but I just wanted to know what a vegan view would be here…
Thanks.

I believe bees make honey because they need it. How then can it ever be ethical to take it from them?

 

[Lou]

Can honey ever be ethical?

Probably not

My point of view is that, in general, honey is not vegan and is not ethical because it is stolen; it is taking their food source, and bees are also killed and mistreated in the production of honey.

Yep. I agree.

Even if they replace the honey, it is still taking without consent; of course, we can’t ask the bees for their consent, so all taking of any honey from bees is always going to be (bee? Get it?) without their consent.
However, if there was a business that invested in honeybee conservation and was helping the honeybees and helping ensure the survival of the bees and (other?) endangered species, and didn’t kill or otherwise abuse the bees, but just took the honey and replaced it and perhaps even gave them more food in return for the honey, would it be ethical?

Maybe. There is a Bee-guy at my Farmer's market and he probably does more for preserving and conserving his bees than I do by not buying and eating honey.

I know this is a controversial topic to post in a vegan forum, but I just wanted to know what a vegan view would be here…

And you are right - it is controversial. but "Real Vegans" don't eat honey. There is a subset of Vegans who call themselves Bee-Gans. And they have a pretty good argument/defense in their attitude towards honey.
Instead of repeating it here I'll go ahead and just post a link that goes into both sides of the argument.
And it does pose the question, if honey isn't vegan, what about almonds and avocados? They both require the exploitation of bees.

However, be sure to read to the end. I Really Like Mathew Ball's perspective.

Also have you see my last couple of Posts in the Everything Animal Thread? They are all about bees/bee keeping/ and honey. IMHO they are informative and entertaining. And contain what I think is an expert's opinion.

 

[Lou]

I believe bees make honey because they need it. How then can it ever be ethical to take it from them?

How about if the Bee Keeper causes more good than bad by raising bees. The utilitarian might argue that if there are more healthy bees in the world with bee keepers than without.

Of course, it might be even better to leave bees alone. This also gets into a whole huge Ecological/Environmental thing. Since honey bees aren't native to North America. What do we do with the billions that live here. Then there is that our food supply is so dependent on polinatiors. Anyway - it's a whole thing, one that I've already discussed in other threads.

 

[Lou]

Oh. College Patrick Goudroux has a few essays on this topic.

here is an excerpt

We all know about the decline of bee populations around the world, but we’re thinking about the wrong bees. There are more than 25,000 bee species globally, but when most people think about bees, they tend to think only of the European honeybee, a species that has been domesticated for crop pollination and honey production — a species not native to the U.S.
We cultivate honey bees just like chickens, cows, and pigs, and like all agriculture animals, their high population is a harm to wild populations: they compete directly for nectar and pollen, transmit diseases, and push wild bees out of their native areas.
Well-intentioned though it might be, keeping honeybees and managing beehives does nothing to protect wild pollinators and actually make it worse for them. Scientists who study bees say it’s like farming chickens to save wild birds.
A lack of flowers is one of the main factors behind the decline in bee populations, so if you want to help bees, forget about beekeeping and honey. Rather: create bee habitats: plant pesticide-free, bee-friendly gardens filled with a VARIETY of pollen- and nectar-rich NATIVE plants.
Please share this and let me know your thoughts.

 

[jalan]

Can honey ever be ethical? My point of view is that, in general, honey is not vegan and is not ethical because it is stolen; it is taking their food source, and bees are also killed and mistreated in the production of honey. Even if they replace the honey, it is still taking without consent; of course, we can’t ask the bees for their consent, so all taking of any honey from bees is always going to be (bee? Get it?) without their consent.
However, if there was a business that invested in honeybee conservation and was helping the honeybees and helping ensure the survival of the bees and (other?) endangered species, and didn’t kill or otherwise abuse the bees, but just took the honey and replaced it and perhaps even gave them more food in return for the honey, would it be ethical?
I know this is a controversial topic to post in a vegan forum, but I just wanted to know what a vegan view would be here…
Thanks.

Officially, honey is an animal product and veganism is a diet of non animal products, correct???… And this is one reason why I’m not a fan of labels, since many consider honey exempt… However, to say that I support and live by vegan principles, gives an overall indication that I don’t consume animal foods… cheers

 

[g0rph]

Officially, honey is an animal product and veganism is a diet of non animal products, correct???… And this is one reason why I’m not a fan of labels, since many consider honey exempt… However, to say that I support and live by vegan principles, gives an overall indication that I don’t consume animal foods… cheers

Except veganism is more than just a diet.

If veganism is simply a diet then...
A trophy hunter could be considered vegan.
Buying leather could be considered vegan.
Amongst many other things.

They are not vegan. Because veganism is concerned with not exploiting animals, for their meat, their hide or anything else.

The diet is called "plant-based". Vegans eat a plant-based diet and also avoid leather, silk, wool. We also buy toiletries that do not contain animal products, or that have been unnecessarily tested on animals.

 

[silva]

Except veganism is more than just a diet.

If veganism is simply a diet then...
A trophy hunter could be considered vegan.
Buying leather could be considered vegan.
Amongst many other things.

They are not vegan. Because veganism is concerned with not exploiting animals, for their meat, their hide or anything else.

The diet is called "plant-based". Vegans eat a plant-based diet and also avoid leather, silk, wool. We also buy toiletries that do not contain animal products, or that have been unnecessarily tested on animals.

Yes, but jalan was just referring to consuming honey....

I will say, ethical bee keepers certainly do a lot of advocacy on how to maintain good habitats for pollinators, and keep people from automatically thinking hives should be destroyed, They will come out at all hours to safely remove a hive.

What irks me is the false thinking that honey is so good for you, and medicinal. It isn't. Personally no one in my family even likes the taste

 

[g0rph]

Yes, but jalan was just referring to consuming honey....

I will say, ethical bee keepers certainly do a lot of advocacy on how to maintain good habitats for pollinators, and keep people from automatically thinking hives should be destroyed, They will come out at all hours to safely remove a hive.

What irks me is the false thinking that honey is so good for you, and medicinal. It isn't. Personally no one in my family even likes the taste

I'm not sure. They alluded to this definition in the other thread and pushed back when I quoted the Vegan Society's definition.

As far as honey, though whilst it isn't vegan and I gave it up when I transitioned, I have very little moral qualms with people using it, especially from smaller, local companies. We consume so much that is pollinated with these bees anyway... that we accept as vegan.

 

[VegetableLiker]

I love seeing bees buzzing around while I'm gardening, those little dudes are such a riot! AHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Haven't looked into it, but I say we let them keep what they make. bzzzzzzzzzz

 

[g0rph]

I love seeing bees buzzing around while I'm gardening, those little dudes are such a riot! AHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Haven't looked into it, but I say we let them keep what they make. bzzzzzzzzzz

I had a bumble bee land on the top of the front door when it was open. It was tired and struggling to move and I now couldn't close the door without squishing it.
So I grabbed a bit of syrup in a spoon and dripped it next to its head. 10 seconds later it shot off like nothing ever happened

 

[VegetableLiker]

I had a bumble bee land on the top of the front door when it was open. It was tired and struggling to move and I now couldn't close the door without squishing it.
So I grabbed a bit of syrup in a spoon and dripped it next to its head. 10 seconds later it shot off like nothing ever happened

Wow, dude, that's a straight up ADORABLE story! I'm telling you; those little buzzers are really something, WHAT A RIOT