Distinction between Plant Based and Vegan
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Lou
Forum Legend
I disagree. Before starting any philosophical discussion or argument, one must not only define terms but agree on their meaning. If the 2 sides can't agree what the terms mean, then any discussion is pointless
And it seems to me that that participants in this discussion have not even agreed to the meaning of the terms in question.
Well, from my point of view, defining terms should be part of the philosophical process. In the socratic methode the meaning is constructed step by step. It doesn't exist beforehand.
If you want to comunicate with people obviously you have to agree on the way you use words. So there are two solutions: either you define the words by arguing and agreeing step by step or you find an arbitrator who impose upon everybody the meanings of words (the vegan society or the dictionnary are arbitrators —and as I said I think they make bad philosophy).
In this case, the issue is how we define "veganism."
is there anyone reading this thread who thinks it is purely a matter of diet and nothing else?
IOW, is it just a matter of not eating anything sourced from the body of an animal ( whether the body of a dead animal or produced by a living animal)?
is there anyone reading this thread who thinks it is purely a matter of diet and nothing else?
IOW, is it just a matter of not eating anything sourced from the body of an animal ( whether the body of a dead animal or produced by a living animal)?
TofuRobot
Forum Legend
This is how I've come to define it for myself:
Vegan - Doesn't eat animal products and avoids the use, consumption, and support other products and activities as much as possible.
Follows a vegan diet - Doesn't eat animal products.
Plant Based diet == vegan diet.
WFPB - eats a whole food plant based diet (which happens to be a vegan diet). These people can also be vegan, and they avoid highly processed foods as much as possible.
WFPB no SOS - same as WFPB, with the exclusion of oil, added salt, and refined sugar as much as possible. These people can also be vegan.
It's really not that complicated, at least not to me. So many people on the interwebs insist on saying that someone who is WFPB/WFPB SOS doesn't care about the animals, they only care about their health. Those ppl can stuff it.
At the end of the day, I'm personally sick of labels. Yes, I identify as a wfpb vegan, but I'm not perfect, nor do I claim to be. I don't know why people have problems with saying "vegan diet," though, it seems like a clear descriptor to me. Journalists should make this clear in their headlines, IMO. They are the ones largely responsible for said confusion.
The thing about language (much to our frustration), though - it's always changing. I personally rejected using the word "Google" as a been for as long as I possibly could.
Vegan - Doesn't eat animal products and avoids the use, consumption, and support other products and activities as much as possible.
Follows a vegan diet - Doesn't eat animal products.
Plant Based diet == vegan diet.
WFPB - eats a whole food plant based diet (which happens to be a vegan diet). These people can also be vegan, and they avoid highly processed foods as much as possible.
WFPB no SOS - same as WFPB, with the exclusion of oil, added salt, and refined sugar as much as possible. These people can also be vegan.
It's really not that complicated, at least not to me. So many people on the interwebs insist on saying that someone who is WFPB/WFPB SOS doesn't care about the animals, they only care about their health. Those ppl can stuff it.
At the end of the day, I'm personally sick of labels. Yes, I identify as a wfpb vegan, but I'm not perfect, nor do I claim to be. I don't know why people have problems with saying "vegan diet," though, it seems like a clear descriptor to me. Journalists should make this clear in their headlines, IMO. They are the ones largely responsible for said confusion.
The thing about language (much to our frustration), though - it's always changing. I personally rejected using the word "Google" as a been for as long as I possibly could.
Lou
Forum Legend
I like your definitions. I have a couple of things to add. Could be just quibbling but you know, that is what i do.
We don't need the term "follow a vegan diet". There is already a term for that: Strick vegetarian.
the other quibble is that I'm pretty sure that PB and WFPB are not necessarily vegan. I could be wrong about that and it might depend on what book or version you read. The reason I'm saying that is that I am pretty sure if you look through the FOK cookbook and Furman's Eat To Live cookbook you will find recipes that include things like chicken and cheese. I don't have either cookbook with me right now. And I am not sure of this so maybe someone could fact check me.
The other thing that I just thought of is that a lot the PB and WFPB authors never use the word vegan. Well, it is just a diet. Plus I think they are trying to distance themselves from crazy vegans.
With that said if a strick vegetarian or a PB or a WFPB wants to include the word vegan in describing themselves - that if not only fine with me - but I think that is good.
TofuRobot
Forum Legend
Ha - so here's where we get in to original definitions, which is that (much to my surprise when I learned it a couple years ago), a WFPB diet does not include any animal products. I used to think what you think, but I learned otherwise. Now, FOK has, what I would call *diluted* their recipes in their books and on their website which now include some animal products, but they most definitely didn't used to. Honestly, that pisses me off, to a degree, so I don't really turn to them for advise anymore. I think they are trying to cater to the masses by doing that. I am in a WFPB FB group that noticed when they started doing that, and the moderator expressed her disappointment and we don't refer to them anymore. I am pretty disappointed myself. But I have been "schooled" in the past to learn that PB means no animal products, not a diet with mostly plants and whatever else in small quantities. That, to me, is "flexitarian" (or better put, "just a typical omnivore who is maybe trying to cut back the amt of meat they eat").
So, you are saying that "strict vegetarian" is the same as "vegan diet?"
I could see that. I suppose they could be used interchangeably. But IMO, "strict vegetarian" is a term one hardly ever hears anymore. I mean, I remember my aunt using that term back in the late 80s
Edit: Have I mentioned I hate labels?
Lou
Forum Legend
@TofuRobot
Before I was vegan I was a strict vegetarian. I didn't know much about labels at the time. I thought I was just a vegetarian. But then I learned that vegetarians could eat eggs and milk. So I looked around for the right term and found a strict vegetarian. But you're right - you don't hear that term much.
I think the issue with allowing some meat in a FOK or even any WFPB diet is that it's all about health. I'm pretty sure based on my reading that a little bit of meat each week is not bad for you. And there is that "mass appeal". not totally cutting out meat appeals to more people. But yeah, that is basically the same as Flexitarian.
Before I was vegan I was a strict vegetarian. I didn't know much about labels at the time. I thought I was just a vegetarian. But then I learned that vegetarians could eat eggs and milk. So I looked around for the right term and found a strict vegetarian. But you're right - you don't hear that term much.
I think the issue with allowing some meat in a FOK or even any WFPB diet is that it's all about health. I'm pretty sure based on my reading that a little bit of meat each week is not bad for you. And there is that "mass appeal". not totally cutting out meat appeals to more people. But yeah, that is basically the same as Flexitarian.
fyi - FOK cookbook
Forks Over Knives – The Cookbook
$18.95$15.99
300+ brand new recipes. Globally and seasonally inspired dishes from Chef Del. All recipes are vegan, oil-free and virtually all are low-fat. Contributions from Julieanna Hever, Judy Micklewright, Isa Chandra Moskowitz, and Darshana Thacker.
Emma JC
ps re: Furman.... to my knowledge he is a Nutritarian
Forks Over Knives – The Cookbook
$18.95$15.99
300+ brand new recipes. Globally and seasonally inspired dishes from Chef Del. All recipes are vegan, oil-free and virtually all are low-fat. Contributions from Julieanna Hever, Judy Micklewright, Isa Chandra Moskowitz, and Darshana Thacker.
Emma JC
ps re: Furman.... to my knowledge he is a Nutritarian
We know how to use context to determine the meaning of words. It is obvious that there’s some degree of relativity to them. If I read an article about vegans in a slaughter house, I understand that it is about animal rights. If I go to a restaurant, I know that “vegan” means that the dish is PB (but the restaurant might not be vegan at all).
In English PB has two meanings. Nowadays it mostly means a vegan diet but sometimes it means flexitarian eating patterns (as in the blue zones).
French tends to be far more strict with the meanings of words (as France has always be mostly into theory; England is more empirical, and so is the USA).
Végétalien : strictly plant based (no animal food, but might include honey, in cooking books from the seventies).
Vegan, végane, végétalien intégral : no animal products.
BUT many French animal activists think that "vegan" is just related to consumerism. So they say we ought to define ourselves as animal activists, not as vegans: being “vegan” isn’t enough.
However the medias uses "vegan"in a broader sens.
To be honest I think it is good that the word vegan has several meanings. This way, it is used more often and it spreads rapidly. And PB should be the vegan Trojan horse.
In English PB has two meanings. Nowadays it mostly means a vegan diet but sometimes it means flexitarian eating patterns (as in the blue zones).
French tends to be far more strict with the meanings of words (as France has always be mostly into theory; England is more empirical, and so is the USA).
Végétalien : strictly plant based (no animal food, but might include honey, in cooking books from the seventies).
Vegan, végane, végétalien intégral : no animal products.
BUT many French animal activists think that "vegan" is just related to consumerism. So they say we ought to define ourselves as animal activists, not as vegans: being “vegan” isn’t enough.
However the medias uses "vegan"in a broader sens.
To be honest I think it is good that the word vegan has several meanings. This way, it is used more often and it spreads rapidly. And PB should be the vegan Trojan horse.
TofuRobot
Forum Legend
@Emma JC - I think it's the website that has a few non-vegan recipes, that the FB group mod was referring to. Or possibly that they somewhere suggested that it's OK to substitute chicken broth or something. I didn't follow up on it. Or maybe it was the use of oil?
@Lou - I tend to trust Dr. Barnard with regards to whether or not how much meat is healthy. I am pretty sure he says that, while obviously cutting down to minimal is better than nothing, it's a far cry to say it's "healthy" to include any amount of meat. He speaks in terms of optimal diet, of course. Obviously, if you eat a tiny amount of meat very infrequently, it's unlikely to have a significant detrimental impact on your health. I think the issues is that when people like FOK who original promoted one diet start including things outside of what is/was commonly accepted as "plant based' or even WFPB, start including things just to appeal to more people, it confuses everyone.
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One thing I think it's wise to remember is that a person who joins a WFPB website/group is expecting those kinds of ideas and may have perfectly justifiable reasons for making a strong distinction between WFPB and simply "vegan".
Health is one of those reasons, and not just from the assumption that they are already healthy. They might be extremely sick and want a place where they can get food ideas that are healthy and vegan.
My relative, the one I mentioned in the coffee thread some days ago, is one of those people. She may live 2 months, she may live 4, but the prognosis is not good. She has only been vegan for less than a year, but even then with cheating, and before that with quite a bit more cheating. Right now (I'm hoping) she will go vegan without the cheats, but there are some specific things she needs to avoid, specifically concentrated plant proteins/isolates such as those found in some vegan products. These can raise IGF-1, and are high in Methionine, which many tumors depend on to grow.
As I understand it, veganism- by definition- excludes other things which are not eaten, such as articles of clothing or cosmetics (but not limited to those). For example, I don't think a vegan who took medicine tested on animals would be considered as no longer being vegan; almost all (maybe all) medicine is tested on animals, and I don't think a vegan would be expected to refuse medicine, even if they would prefer something not tested on animals but no such medicine was available.
I think someone who follows only the dietary aspects of veganism is often termed a "strict vegetarian"- but I don't think this term is commonly used or understood.
