Code and Conduct in Ethical Debate.

[thinman]

The health argument doesn't stop people from buying leather... Or wool... Or animal tested products...

Obviously, what I notice is people considering PB or PPB but not the whole vegan thing.

 

[JacobVeganism]

gosh i just noticed your age...excuse me for showing surprise...i mean it as a compliment i add...so young...compared to ? me of course...and daring to enter the fray on such topics...i admire you...seriously...i was no way up to your level at your age. sadly.

oh well there IS hope for the world...and the animals...when such people as you even take an interest is all i can end saying on that topic. As clint eastwood would say..."you made my day" lol...and now...to the eternal gratitude i am sure of admins of this group...i shall bid ye gudday and go out in the sunshine after a shower it is sunny in the uk today

wow...it was YOU who started this high level topic thread...wow...

well...as the good book said...and who will lead them ?

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Thanks haha I guess you're called a troll by a lot of people. Seems like you like to talk a lot have a good one.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

Thanks haha I guess you're called a troll by a lot of people. Seems like you like to talk a lot have a good one.

ooh it has been some years since i got that TROLL name call lol...thx for reminding me of it...i have a meme i use for TROLLS that appear in my vegan cats group I manage...these are fun memes...you know...people who join a "vegan cats" group to order people to "kill animals to feed cats" types of trolls...

I do recall the last time i got called a troll...i did not know what the title meant actually had to enquire...it was in...uk pets corner online forum some years ago...i posted that i fed my dogs vegan ...well that did it...we are talking 10 years ago btw...it was in the dogs group...they were so stunned...they accused me of being a TROLL...so i asked...what is that ? they replied ...someone who is making things up to annoy others...i replied...i am NOt making it up...i feed my dogs vegan...ended up with a BAN of course. For being allegedly a TROLL ... or was it for feeding my dogs vegan ? actually the last comment i ever wrote there was ? "on the internet nobody knows you are a dog" to someone called ouesi...some yank into preaching what to do with their dogs to everyone who posted type of person...he called him or herself a dog "expert" well so my comment...of "on the internet no one knows you are a dog" was clearly an allegation at him implying i had no regard for his views as he could call himself the POPE online and no one would know if it were true.

Of course...in a DOGS group posting "on the internet nobody knows you are a dog" that might have been a "speciesist" offence taken.

Admin never explained...like royalty...i just got banned lol

I put the rules up clear...this is an "abolitionist vegan group" but since people today are very ignorant that term fails to compute in their tiny brains and still they plough on...into self assisted suicide actually...

If i do not MUTE the trolls posting pictures of dead animals they want us all to kill to feed our cats...i get called a WEAK ADMIN and reported to other admin lol...

I am TOO TOLERANT maybe of animal killers ...i think...let them spout off a bit...to see if they can be talked round after all the "chest puffing" struts humans need to do just like peacocks and turkeys...my male turkey struts his stuff i noticed you see...

you cannot please all the people...all of the time...some usa president not a trump once said i forget names....

Anyway. DEFINITION of a TROLL is a good topic for a future post maybe lol !

I call a troll someone who is out to go totally against the ethics or principles of the group or post involved...like for eg ? a Jew joins a Muslim group to rant about the prophet negatively...or...in the case of vegan cat groups...i see KAMAKAZE SUICIDERS arrive all guns blasting calling us all "animal abusers" whilst forgetting they kill thousands of animals ! it does take some patience dealing with kamakazes i must say...one has to put up with...pictures of dead animals even until deleting the posts and eventually the trolls of course most of the time.

anyone launching into YOU ARE ALL WRONG rants is usually a troll.

Here i shall leave you with my favorite troll pictures...guess which one i like and use the most ?

edit...actually...i do not "tease" so in case anyone is really interested...in another post than this i add i would not like to digress into my "pet subject" here too much...but...the explanations..."in detail" i assure you...i am nothing if not detail..i do not GRUNT words like "carnivore" I talk details or i get irritated...

if anyone wished to know all about the differences and explanations of "hyper carnivores" and "obligate carnivores" and simple "carnivores" as taxonomy classifications and their meanings for diet in the wild or in captivity or generally nutrition history and evolution of the biology of wild animals and domestic ones and the percentages of digestibility of proteins taurine arginine arachnic acid etc etc etc...then...you have only to ask me...i know ALL about it and can put it simply enough to explain all sorts about those issues terms



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[JacobVeganism]

ooh it has been some years since i got that TROLL name call lol...thx for reminding me of it...i have a meme i use for TROLLS that appear in my vegan cats group I manage...these are fun memes...you know...people who join a "vegan cats" group to order people to "kill animals to feed cats" types of trolls...

I do recall the last time i got called a troll...i did not know what the title meant actually had to enquire...it was in...uk pets corner online forum some years ago...i posted that i fed my dogs vegan ...well that did it...we are talking 10 years ago btw...it was in the dogs group...they were so stunned...they accused me of being a TROLL...so i asked...what is that ? they replied ...someone who is making things up to annoy others...i replied...i am NOt making it up...i feed my dogs vegan...ended up with a BAN of course. For being allegedly a TROLL ... or was it for feeding my dogs vegan ? actually the last comment i ever wrote there was ? "on the internet nobody knows you are a dog" to someone called ouesi...some yank into preaching what to do with their dogs to everyone who posted type of person...he called him or herself a dog "expert" well so my comment...of "on the internet no one knows you are a dog" was clearly an allegation at him implying i had no regard for his views as he could call himself the POPE online and no one would know if it were true.

Of course...in a DOGS group posting "on the internet nobody knows you are a dog" that might have been a "speciesist" offence taken.

Admin never explained...like royalty...i just got banned lol

I put the rules up clear...this is an "abolitionist vegan group" but since people today are very ignorant that term fails to compute in their tiny brains and still they plough on...into self assisted suicide actually...

If i do not MUTE the trolls posting pictures of dead animals they want us all to kill to feed our cats...i get called a WEAK ADMIN and reported to other admin lol...

I am TOO TOLERANT maybe of animal killers ...i think...let them spout off a bit...to see if they can be talked round after all the "chest puffing" struts humans need to do just like peacocks and turkeys...my male turkey struts his stuff i noticed you see...

you cannot please all the people...all of the time...some usa president not a trump once said i forget names....

Anyway. DEFINITION of a TROLL is a good topic for a future post maybe lol !

I call a troll someone who is out to go totally against the ethics or principles of the group or post involved...like for eg ? a Jew joins a Muslim group to rant about the prophet negatively...or...in the case of vegan cat groups...i see KAMAKAZE SUICIDERS arrive all guns blasting calling us all "animal abusers" whilst forgetting they kill thousands of animals ! it does take some patience dealing with kamakazes i must say...one has to put up with...pictures of dead animals even until deleting the posts and eventually the trolls of course most of the time.

anyone launching into YOU ARE ALL WRONG rants is usually a troll.

Here i shall leave you with my favorite troll pictures...guess which one i like and use the most ?

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That's funny because I get called a troll almost every post I make. I care about the troubles of wild animals and I don't know how to deal with it, I just want people to accept that their suffering matters. People's appeal to nature is irrational for justifying meat, yet vegans use it all the time when deciding whether or not to intervene in the wild in order to minimise suffering.

Do you have a vegan cat? How is it managing? I assume it's a rescue cat also, as the idea of ownership and purchasing an animal that has been taken away from its mother is quite upsetting, although I understand why many vegans do buy pets.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

That's funny because I get called a troll almost every post I make. I care about the troubles of wild animals and I don't know how to deal with it, I just want people to accept that their suffering matters. People's appeal to nature is irrational for justifying meat, yet vegans use it all the time when deciding whether or not to intervene in the wild in order to minimise suffering.

Do you have a vegan cat? How is it managing? I assume it's a rescue cat also, as the idea of ownership and purchasing an animal that has been taken away from its mother is quite upsetting, although I understand why many vegans do buy pets.

oooh...admin here will be running for tranquilisers if they read your comment lol...you are gong to encourage me ? to talk about vegan cats ? I WOULD LOVE TO...most posts on the topic end up closed by admins i add as people like to rant "animal abuser" and grunt "carnivore" without details at me ...but...if you really really want DETAILS...and you must be a mind reader as i just edited my previous comment with the offer to explain taxonomy classifications of wild and domestic animals...and it is relevant to this post a bit as this is about "speciesism" and "racism" issues which are "classifications of animals" issues...

but...let us not digress by going off at a tangent...to start in this thread to talk about the terminology of the animal kingdom...it is a fascinating good topic for another post is what i suggest.

What i will do is...

1. think about starting a thread about..."taxonomy of sentient beings" uh oh...already there are 3 complex words needing definitions in that...i mean SENTIENCE is a big discussion area for oysters and even i got into a row about insects the other day some saying some insects were not sentient ...anyway...

2. To quickly reply to your question about my pet cat...yes she is a rescue...i got her age 12 weeks old...yes she is fed vegan from day 1. I did no "pussy footing" stuff like "transitioning"...whoops....not wanting to upset anyone i recall there is a GROUP in here for TRANSITIONERS...well transitioning is a term used in the pet food world...means changing foods...and i am not into transitioning...i let my dogs or cat etc puke on carpets i wash if they get indigestion from any change of food...all animals have that issue so other than a dirty floor needing a wash it is no big deal//

3. THE APPEAL TO NATURE fallacy...oh excuse me admin but i got excited at seeing that comment...what a load of xxx that argument sure is...

In nature...most pet cats...would be DEAD is the truth...70 % of TNR trap neuter release cats die within 2 years horrible deaths.

So what is natural ? about a goat or a cat sat in a house on a human couch ? nothing.

What is natural ? about cutting off the genitals of a pet animal to stop them ever having families of their own species ? nothing.

Why is it...that all commercial cat foods have not natural but synthetic taurine in them ? when that is not natural taurine ? but does the same thing ?

Why is is...that 50% of wild lion families never make it to adulthood...natural world...but we think our pet cats should 100% make it to adulthood ?

Why is it...that only 1 in 8 of wild wolf families made it to adulthood...natural world...but we thiknk our pet dogs should 100% make it to adulthood ?

and what do 74% of natural wild lions and big wild cats die of ? renal disease...kidney disease...UTI infections. On their raw flesh diets ! which are the highest risk in diseases that harm the kidneys !

I could go on...

but...humans...love FANTASIES is my fast easy answer...why else ? do we have DISNEY ? and STAR WARS ?

we love fantasies...

And the "natural world" myths are just part of the "fantasies" of looking at a goat on our couch and imagining that is a wild goat.

I CEASE ! but i promise...when the day is over...to provide yours truely with a decent explanation of ANIMAL TAXONOMY CLASSIFICATIONS OF WILD AND DOMESTIC ANIMALS linked to the NATURE FALLACY myths.

ps i do not fail to address the 2 other issues you mention...

1. you being called a troll...

2. baby kittens taken from their mothers young.

point 1....well it is dare i suggest your age...you are curious as young. curiosity killed the cat is an expression...well stupid expression.

asking questions...is the first sign of intelligence. there is a great deal of evidence that this is missing lol in many places.

2. of COURSE it is unnatural to break up families of animals ...and farm animals suffer enormously from this...mother pigs distressed at babies dead around them ...unable to be free to care for them...too heavily bred so they kill them by their unnatural shape and weight...

mother cows...crying every year when their babies are taken off them at once...

oh the PET species has it easy in comparison hey

even on puppy farms the pups are with the mother a few weeks.

my kitten was going to be killed by the hotel in whose grounds the mother had the 2 kitten litter in again...they were fed up with it...

both kittens were seized and forced to be crated and the mother tamed somehow...she was a feral...the brother of my kitten was adopted as not all black...i like black...so my kitten was lucky

anyway...i shall cease now having replied to your points...and not digress this thread further...but think of a taxonomy post to do for info...

in the meantime...

here are 2 pages of my website blog of my vegan rescue kitten Midnight.

http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Rescue_Kitten_New_Little_Tyke_Midnight_Hannukah_Capricorn.html

ppss...i am sincere about my whoops over criticism implied of the word TRANSITIONING...i transitioned...so who am i to criticise those that transition and do not go vegan at once ! ?

My pets however...did not get the choice lol...i plonked food down in front of them without any pussy footing around to mix pet foods.

Actually...i have a very good reason for that...

pet foods...are balanced...complete nutrition...in the right quantities of minerals proteins etc

so if you mess around...mix different pet foods up...then you are getting the wrong balances of nutrients ! logical even to a non scientist.

It is high health risk...to eat an excess of certain minerals in particular...even too much taurine can harm the kidneys...so...why risk it ? all a change of food does to tummies is a bit of the runs hey...i mean do we "transition" from an Indian to a Chinese by mixing them ? of course not so why should i do that with pet foods ? for fussy eaters ? well i have no time for human or other animal fussy eaters...i was not allowed to be a fussy eater as a child so stuff others i pay for the food of i say.

i went vegan after my dogs did.

It was actually seeing them all ulcers gone and bushy tailed that provided me with the idea of...why not me ?

but i did not understand all the issues at once.

I was used to eating eggs and cheeses...i only realised baby calves were killed and mothers made pregnant JUST for their milk aged over 50 ! seriously ! i just never gave it a thought...idiot ? yes well it was just not mentioned and i was not CURIOUS enough to ask...or maybe had a mind block or just too selfish.

Anyway. When i got GALLSTONES and had an operation to remove them...due to eating cheese...animals fats...the penny really dropped lol !

2cm large gallstone i had...i was puking up and thinking...i want to DIE this is painful...then i found out what it was.

So that was the end of raping cows and killing calves....and when i discovered 50% of eggs hatched were males and 6 billion of them were suffocated to death as not egg layers and breast cancer and prostate cancer came from eggs...that was the end of eggs.

The HABITS of TASTE were the hard bits. I HATE BROCCOLI !

oh the environment issues...i read one shocker in the Economist magazine about 70% of all fish in the oceans having gone in the past 40 years...i thought...started to think...well makes sense i think...8 billion people...up from only 2 billion when i was born 50 years ago...there just are not the wild animals around to eat like when there were only 3 million humans on planet earth...time to stop the fantasies...of "1 million years BC" with Raquel Welsh and the dinosaurs.

edit...just final add here as example...of "conduct" in discussions regarding veganism...

elsewhere...a post of a mass of chickens bred to be killed gets comments...sympathy for the chickens lives about to be lost comments of course...

the TITLE of the post of a chicken farm was interesting however...not appearling to animal rights or sympathy for lives lost...but money spend by tax payers....


Totally Vegan Buzz
Makes sense beef and dairy farmers should no longer be paid subsidies and producers of animal products should be treated in the same way as tobacco companies, an influential scientific journal has argued.

and so me...knowing the USD and EUR etc figures that every year get paid by tax payers via governments to the animal agriculture animal killers...agreed...stop the subsidies...make people pay the proper price when they buy the corpses...

but then...someone lashes out at me...telling me to feed my cat vegan or i am an animal abuser lol !

I ask several times...will the person mention the chickens...(he can see i have a vegan cat as it is my avatar and i made a comment about 30% of meat sales being pet food sales)

he ignores the chickens...and continues to rant about me...i simply remind him....he is not mentioning the chickens...will he please mention what he wants done to the chickens ? death ? and he then blocks me.

It is a mental problem i think...people simply cannot bring themselves to actually say..."kill the chickens and bunny rabbits" but in cowardly words order you to do so without mentioning them...

cognitive dissonance and cowardice at its best i say.

THAT is a possible good topic of another post too hey..."cognitive dissonance"

it excuses a multitude of sins i say !


"this post...is about chickens...so...answer...you want all those chickens killed...for pet cats of yours ...? well ? you are ignoring my question...answer...are you forgetting the animals above welfare ? do their lives not matter ? answer...suddenly...you fail to address the post animals...chickens...well ? you want them dead ? where is the concern for as you put it their "welfare" hey ? their lives ? well ? answer...you mentioned welfare of animals...so...this post has pictures i remind you of chickens...so you want them ignored and their welfare ignored ? "

I then got BLOCKED so i just added for others to see comment...

"ah the usual has taken place...an animal chicken killer has refused to answer the question...but made it clear to everyone..he wants those chickens killed. It is amazing hey...how people hide from stating the obvious with judgemental twaddle orders to kill chickens made in snide shitty orders...but when simply asked...put it clearly...you want me to kill those chickens like you do...they run off and block lol "

right...too much of today spent online. i need to get offline.

but this was the last attempt at how to explain things elsewhere on a row again on the pet food issue...where someone tried to say all animals parts in pet foods were free...lol...seriously...people really do try and delude themselves to avoid the truth hey...that meat...comes from killed animals....that they if they buy them have caused the deaths of....

anyway...here was my accountant mentality attempt to explain it...

" 30 percent of animals bred and killed end up as pet food. rabbits in hundreds of millions are just one...i know of many others. you basically think animals dead parts are free and not part of the profit in the 83 billion USD income from pet foods and the cause of animals lives taken deliberately and more than would be if pet food income was not part of the sale of the body parts.

Let me besides reminding you that animals are specifically bred for pet food in hundreds of millions...let me explain it this way...here is a cow...i want the "best" bits of her...say half and half with you...so ? the farmer gets the full price for 1 cow bred and killed price...i pay say 70 percent of the total cow price and you pay 30 percent. So who has killed the cow ? only the person who paid the 70 percent or both people ? it is obvious...both people. That is how the pet food kills animals is simply explained also. It is silly to talk of me killing 1 cow or calf each time i drink a glass of killed baby cows milk...but i...and all the people who drink the glasses of milk of that baby calf caused its death. "

 

[Vegan Dogs]

So I want to hear some of your opinions in regards to what topics are off-limits when attempting to "win over" a meat-eater.

Have any of you guys heard of the vegan teacher on tiktok? Well she's blown up recently and everyone is calling her racist and disgusting for referencing slavery and rape in her activism. I attempted to explain that these comparisons were merely a portrayal of fallacious argument, and I was branded a racist bigot.

If someone argues that it is ok to do something so long as culture deems it to be ok, you can point out the fallacy by referencing slavery that occured in history, which was very much not ok, despite it being accepted by society.

If someone argues that it is ok to do something, so long as it bring pleasure to them, you can outline the fallacy as it can be used to justify rape.

Counteracting these arguments in this manner is sure permissible, no?

What are your thoughts?

I looked up this person you called "vegan teacher" and found some posts...there is a petition going to try and take her dog off her lol...silly people...what a waste of energy...i was able to go comment on some forums where they are ranting about this issue to inform them that vegan pet foods have been sold legally for over 30 years the governments are fully aware of them of course and so nothing can be done about it lol...people really waste energy like this hey...

now to the other matter...racism issues about her...

coould not find them...founds some youtube anti vegan videos done about her...

seems to me...she is like Ghandi...who got jailed i think for promoting freedom from oppression and was vegan actually...

when people find someone to ridicule...someone who puts their head above the parapet...crowd hysteria kicks in hey...hate unifies people easily....

i am listening to an anti vegan video upset that she criticised people celebrating festivals without eating killed animals...

actually i went on facebook to see loads of comments on veganism generally telling her to stfu...abusive comments to her...aggression...very unpleasant and negative.

I did not find any of the supposed rants about slavery comparison...but just seeing the aggressive nasty comments mocking veganism and making fun of animals also saying that is all chickens are for...killing and eating...she is in the front line of a great deal of abuse clearly.

very very nasty comments seen...to simply posts done by her saying...please leave animals off your plates...animals matter...it is animal abuse to eat animals...

in fact...i was not surprised that people are mostly ranting abuse at her for her dog being fed vegan...amazing hey...people who kill thousands of animals out to rant about just 1 animal that is not dead like the ones they kill...

such hypocrisy and nastiness out there is the main issue...

" Abusing your dog by refusing to feed it a natural diet. Glad the the police in Pointe Claire did a welfare check on Bella. But it ain't ever gonna stop until we liberate Bella or you look after her right. Stop abusing your dog, wonder how your employers would feel about your dog abuse "

see...she like myself had people reporting her to the police...animal welfare organisations...and where do such reports get anyone ? nowhere. just cause a great deal of wasted time.

another aggressive nasty comment on a general post of hers seen...

" Animals are meant for food say if a zombie apocalypse happened what would you eat? Animals lmao you wouldn’t have a choice so stfu "

Thx for this heads up ...i did not know of this person...and due to you...i was able to give her a bit of moral support for her efforts to create awareness of animals lives out there...this was a comment i left on some aggressive abusive to her comments...

"
plonkers lol...you like killing animals do you ? well how about realising...30 years vegan pet foods have been sold with no recalls legally lol...and how about all those qualifications here...Andrew Knight BSc (Vet Biol), BVMS, CertAW, MANZCVS, DipECAWBM (AWSEL), DipACAW, PhD, FRCVS, PFHEA

Andrew Knight is a ridiculously busy bloke. He is Professor of Animal Welfare and Ethics, and Founding Director of the Centre for Animal Welfare, at the University of Winchester; a EBVS European and RCVS Veterinary Specialist in Animal Welfare Science, Ethics and Law; an American and New Zealand Veterinary Specialist in Animal Welfare; a Fellow of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, and a Principal Fellow of the UK Higher Education Academy.... www.vegepets.com "

poor lady..this pic is an example of her tone and what she focuses on to "sell veganism" ...the "moral" sales pitche is her angle i add...not what some here think is the best angle...

 

[Forest Nymph]

Of course it's permissible. But most people aren't rational, and Americans in particular - well at least approximately 1/3 to up to 1/2 of Americans - don't really understand science, whether that's about climate change or other environmental issues or COVID-19.

I say "up to 1/2" because it's not just the right wing. There are some people in the sociology or philosophy department who are centrists or leftists that apparently live in a fantasy world where climate change will be magically solved without enforcing laws or international intervention. where "there's so much land, there's plenty of land for everyone, why are there fences" (um, no, actually we have to have a certain amount of pristine earth left alone so that we can, you know, not die horribly) and indigenous people can eat at McDonald's because heeeeey they're modern and it's racist to even bring it up!

There are vegans who live in a fantasy universe too. I took a break from activism and etc, getting a much clearer picture on the damage some vegans are doing, seeing as that they really don't comprehend the greatest danger facing mankind is in fact climate change, so they nitpick to death some irrelevant details for personal purity until everyone loses their minds and hates vegans for droning on and on about not keeping pets and not eating olive oil or getting mad at people for trace amounts of animal ingredients WHEN FFS THE EFFING PLANET IS DYING YOU PERSONALLY PURIFYING YOURSELF FROM ANIMAL COMPANIONSHIP, OIL CONSUMPTION, OR TRACE AMOUNTS OF ANIMAL PRODUCTS IS NOT IN REALITY HELPING ANY ANIMALS AT ALL. I get tired. I have issues of my own, but let's also face up to the legions of vegans who have lost sight of the big picture.

I don't think veganism is a magic bullet, though it is extremely effective and helpful. I equally accept ethical vegetarians for the good they do for animal rights - not just for farmed animals, but you know all of the wildlife we're losing on the daily. I get seriously frustrated with people who do not think about this, it's like they practice a religion where they worship farm animals instead of trying to ethically do as little harm to all sentient life on earth.

I definitely think there is a place for sharp, uncompromising, even aggressive vegan arguments. I personally love Vegan Gains, he's one of my favorite You Tubers. I think there are certain types of people who are only convinced by rational comparisons and bold, abrupt statements that shake up their world.

On the other hand, there are people who won't listen if you talk about slavery or rape. If you want to reach those people or have a serious talk with them, you have to adjust your style to something they'll respond to. I mean, you personally don't have to, there are other people out there doing that. I'm just saying it isn't a matter of right or wrong, but what is effective with different types of people.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Well it is exclusively how I was won over and how many others are. Look to the likes of Joey Carbstrong, Earthing Ed and Humane Hancock. They present the ethical argument in a calm manner and it very often works.

Agree with you, but not about Humane Hancock. I used to love him and even donated to his Patreon until he started talking about sterilizing and euthanizing carnivorous animals, not just as a whim, but as a point he kept trying to "win" by making video after video of arrogant, unscientific stupidity and I've never watched him since. There are 5th graders who understand ecology better than he does. Or shall we say, better than he's willing to learn with his arrogance.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Did you actually read what I said?
No comparisons are being made between women and cows. Nor are any comparisons being made between pigs and Jews or black slaves.

If someone used the argument "well if you needed to survive you would do it"
And you responded by saying "if someone had a gun to your head to punch me you would do it, but you don't under current circumstances" you are in no way saying it is as bad to punch someone as it is to purchase animal products. You are merely saying that the line of reasoning leads to the justification of something they they deem to be immoral.

Look at it this way:
Premise 1: So long as society deems it to be ok, it is morally permissible.
Premise 2: Society deems animal agriculture to be ok.
Conclusion: Animal agriculture is morally permissible.

You can clearly see that the issue is with premise 1, not premise 2 or the conclusion. Premise 2 can be swapped for slavery, and reach an irrational conclusion, which means that the premises have to be changed.

I have never claimed that "animal agriculture is worse than slavery" because that would be offensive. However, I can claim that it is wrong, even if it isn't AS wrong as slavery.

The health argument is ego-centric and therefore people will be less likely to engage. With the environmental argument, people can justify moderation, as issues only arise with excess in regards to the environment. If you win them over with the ethical debate, they are more likely to be dedicated to be vegan.

BTW this section is called "philosophy". If you have no interest in ethics then don't engage in this section of the forum?

Actually the health argument works perfectly on some people precisely because it is egocentric. Some people are only first drawn in by health, weight loss, or fitness.

The environmental argument works on people who actually understand what is happening. "Moderation" - particularly of meat - is so 90s and outdated and idiotic. Asking people to eat less meat is also not quantifiable. For example someone who once ate meat at every meal who "reduces" to once a day could still eat it every day, and mix meats together and eat tons of cheese and still have a huge carbon footprint. We are waaaaay past the point where a meat-eating environmentalist should exist, as Harvard and Oxford have debunked the "grassfed" argument as well in the past 5 years. Your opinion sounds similar to Humane Hancock's and he knows NOTHING about ecology.

Not everyone can be won over with ethical debate. People are won over by things that seem interesting, that taste good, that all their friends are doing, and benefit them personally in some way. Appealing to health and fitness, or to people's children dying on a fiery planet is a fine motivator for some selfish individuals and LOTS AND LOTS of people are selfish, especially Americans and even British people who have been raised in their cultures to be "rugged individualists" rather than community-minded people. I think it's also why so many, many Americans reject climate change. Learning the basics of ecology means admitting that everything is interconnected, and this exists because of that, and struggles or ceases to exist without something else makes them really bummed since they want to believe in fictitious separations or illusory individualism. Individualism taken to extremes that eventually hurt the individuals. Like the guy in the media that lost his wife to COVID after he denied it. Or the people whose house was destroyed in a terrible flood. There are apparently people flocking to Arizona right now because they can express their "individuality" there. Should someone tell them the entire state of Arizona will probably be an uninhabitable hell in 20 years or so, if we continue on this trajectory?

 

[Vegan Dogs]

Of course it's permissible. But most people aren't rational, and Americans in particular - well at least approximately 1/3 to up to 1/2 of Americans - don't really understand science, whether that's about climate change or other environmental issues or COVID-19.

I say "up to 1/2" because it's not just the right wing. There are some people in the sociology or philosophy department who are centrists or leftists that apparently live in a fantasy world where climate change will be magically solved without enforcing laws or international intervention. where "there's so much land, there's plenty of land for everyone, why are there fences" (um, no, actually we have to have a certain amount of pristine earth left alone so that we can, you know, not die horribly) and indigenous people can eat at McDonald's because heeeeey they're modern and it's racist to even bring it up!

There are vegans who live in a fantasy universe too. I took a break from activism and etc, getting a much clearer picture on the damage some vegans are doing, seeing as that they really don't comprehend the greatest danger facing mankind is in fact climate change, so they nitpick to death some irrelevant details for personal purity until everyone loses their minds and hates vegans for droning on and on about not keeping pets and not eating olive oil or getting mad at people for trace amounts of animal ingredients WHEN FFS THE EFFING PLANET IS DYING YOU PERSONALLY PURIFYING YOURSELF FROM ANIMAL COMPANIONSHIP, OIL CONSUMPTION, OR TRACE AMOUNTS OF ANIMAL PRODUCTS IS NOT IN REALITY HELPING ANY ANIMALS AT ALL. I get tired. I have issues of my own, but let's also face up to the legions of vegans who have lost sight of the big picture.

I don't think veganism is a magic bullet, though it is extremely effective and helpful. I equally accept ethical vegetarians for the good they do for animal rights - not just for farmed animals, but you know all of the wildlife we're losing on the daily. I get seriously frustrated with people who do not think about this, it's like they practice a religion where they worship farm animals instead of trying to ethically do as little harm to all sentient life on earth.

I definitely think there is a place for sharp, uncompromising, even aggressive vegan arguments. I personally love Vegan Gains, he's one of my favorite You Tubers. I think there are certain types of people who are only convinced by rational comparisons and bold, abrupt statements that shake up their world.

On the other hand, there are people who won't listen if you talk about slavery or rape. If you want to reach those people or have a serious talk with them, you have to adjust your style to something they'll respond to. I mean, you personally don't have to, there are other people out there doing that. I'm just saying it isn't a matter of right or wrong, but what is effective with different types of people.

Most of what you write i totally agree with.

The bits about suggesting "some" people do not react well to mention of analogies to rape murder and slavery so one must not mention those analogies...i disagree with.

How can one know beforehand...whether people are going to say stfu for even saying the word "vegan" as they call that "shoving things down their throats" or mention of the analogy of slavery of humans and non humans upsetting some people...if one had to avoid upsetting anyone by anything one said...one would say nothing.



Why ? are people so offended at the comparison ? i suggest due to thinking it is outrageous to suggest anything bad done to humans is similar to non humans...if a martian animal looking like a human arrived on earth...and people "raped" her...would it be ok to talk "rape" then or not ? if the human looking animal did not speak English would that make her an "animal" so not "rapable" ?

why ? do the dairy industry call the place they forcibly impregnate cows shoving hands arms up the anus and hands tools up the vagina...the "rape rack" ?? that is what they see themselves as doing...raping the animal...and animal sex meaning rape does take place elsewhere.

It was when i read the Gary L Francione name of the vegan creator of the 6principles of Abolitionist Veganism...the very name taken from the human slave or anti slave movement...it was a social movement...just as animal rights is...

so gary francione should delete the title and talk he does of humans owning animals as slavery ? i disagree

John Bryant...ex head of the uk rspca animal charity...wrote a book called Fettered Kingdoms...where he compares a dog on lead and collar to slavery and the very title of his book says...cut the chains...free slaves we have as pets from tyrany of human ownership

If we were to compare modern slavery of humans still to previous black african slavery of the past....would people find that offensive ?

If a martian looking like a human arrived and was raped...would we find that offensive to say rape ?

Or if the martian looking different to a human was raped...is it then offensive to say rape ?

Is it because...humans think humans are the only species the most important species on the planet...that it is offensive to talk "murder" and "Rape" of any sentient beings except for the human species ? this...imho ..is the real reason people like to take offense...and NOT ALL do...those who like me understand the analogies...see the similar issues.