Code and Conduct in Ethical Debate.

JacobVeganism

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So I want to hear some of your opinions in regards to what topics are off-limits when attempting to "win over" a meat-eater.

Have any of you guys heard of the vegan teacher on tiktok? Well she's blown up recently and everyone is calling her racist and disgusting for referencing slavery and rape in her activism. I attempted to explain that these comparisons were merely a portrayal of fallacious argument, and I was branded a racist bigot.

If someone argues that it is ok to do something so long as culture deems it to be ok, you can point out the fallacy by referencing slavery that occured in history, which was very much not ok, despite it being accepted by society.

If someone argues that it is ok to do something, so long as it bring pleasure to them, you can outline the fallacy as it can be used to justify rape.

Counteracting these arguments in this manner is sure permissible, no?

What are your thoughts?
 
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David3

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I don't think that meat eaters can be won over by hardline ethical debate. To inspire people to change their lives, try looking at how advertisers convince people to buy products and services.
.
 
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So I want to hear some of your opinions in regards to what topics are off-limits when attempting to "win over" a meat-eater.

Have any of you guys heard of the vegan teacher on tiktok? Well she's blown up recently and everyone is calling her racist and disgusting for referencing slavery and rape in her activism. I attempted to explain that these comparisons were merely a portrayal of fallacious argument, and I was branded a racist bigot.

If someone argues that it is ok to do something so long as culture deems it to be ok, you can point out the fallacy by referencing slavery that occured in history, which was very much not ok, despite it being accepted by society.

If someone argues that it is ok to do something, so long as it bring pleasure to them, you can outline the fallacy as it can be used to justify rape.

Counteracting these arguments in this manner is sure permissible, no?

What are your thoughts?
I do think it's both racist to compare human slavery with animal rights as well as misogynistic to compare women to cows.
No reason to make comparisons, in fact by doing so most likely will further alienate people, as you have already found.
Advocate for veganism on it's own merit. It's healthier, it's better environmentally, it's cheaper, cleaner, and quite diverse. When you can understand that you have no arguement.
 
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Lou

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OK. I'll bite.
I DO think its fair to equate animal rights with human rights.
Philosophers and religious leaders have done so for hundreds (thousands?) of years. I think it would be easy for someone better versed in philosophy than me to describe animal rights and human rights as all part of the same thing. Didn't Bentham, Pythagoras, and I.B. Singer most famously do that already?

However I think animal rights proponents should be very wary of making those comparisons.
Just recently a vegan "influencer" got shot down for using the phrase "Animal rights Matter".
And several times animal rights groups and individuals got into trouble for using the word "holocaust" to describe what is happening to animals. Even a holocaust survivor got into trouble for making the comparison.

It might be considered smart to shy away from hot buttons and triggers in these kind of discussion. or maybe you can just consider it sensitive or empathetic.

@JacobVeganism said "If someone argues that it is ok to do something so long as culture deems it to be ok, you can point out the fallacy by referencing slavery that occured in history, which was very much not ok, despite it being accepted by society."

I find Collen Patrick Goudreaux's quote to be the best way to talk/think about that.

Just because we can doesn’t mean we should. Just because we once did doesn’t mean we always have to. Once we know better, I think we have the obligation and responsibility to do things better?​
 
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Sax

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It can absolutely be a valid comparison. I mean, animal slavery IS slavery and animal rape IS rape. The fact that it's so likely to offend is a result of deeply ingrained speciesism/human supremacy, animal's rights and suffering so devalued in our society that it's insulting to lower human rights and suffering to the same level.

But you don't need to think it's equally wrong to enslave or rape humans and animals to understand that they're both wrong for the same reasons.

I'd stress that point if I were to make this argument and cast animal rights and human rights as parallel struggles driven by the same values and moral reasoning. Animal rights and human rights aren't zero-sum; any right won for animals is reinforced for humans. It would be absurd to deny a class of humans a right given to animals! (speciesism working in our favor there?) And the work of animal rights necessarily includes the rights of human animals.

I can see it coming off as racist/misogynistic, or even being argued in a way that genuinely is racist/misogynistic, but I don't think that's inherent in the comparison. Those are still struggles in progress though and it might not be helpful to those causes to try to ride their coattails.
 
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JacobVeganism

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If someone argues that it is ok to do something so long as culture deems it to be ok, you can point out the fallacy by referencing slavery that occured in history, which was very much not ok, despite it being accepted by society.

If someone argues that it is ok to do something, so long as it bring pleasure to them, you can outline the fallacy as it can be used to justify rape.
I do think it's both racist to compare human slavery with animal rights as well as misogynistic to compare women to cows.

Did you actually read what I said?
No comparisons are being made between women and cows. Nor are any comparisons being made between pigs and Jews or black slaves.

If someone used the argument "well if you needed to survive you would do it"
And you responded by saying "if someone had a gun to your head to punch me you would do it, but you don't under current circumstances" you are in no way saying it is as bad to punch someone as it is to purchase animal products. You are merely saying that the line of reasoning leads to the justification of something they they deem to be immoral.

Look at it this way:
Premise 1: So long as society deems it to be ok, it is morally permissible.
Premise 2: Society deems animal agriculture to be ok.
Conclusion: Animal agriculture is morally permissible.

You can clearly see that the issue is with premise 1, not premise 2 or the conclusion. Premise 2 can be swapped for slavery, and reach an irrational conclusion, which means that the premises have to be changed.

I have never claimed that "animal agriculture is worse than slavery" because that would be offensive. However, I can claim that it is wrong, even if it isn't AS wrong as slavery.

The health argument is ego-centric and therefore people will be less likely to engage. With the environmental argument, people can justify moderation, as issues only arise with excess in regards to the environment. If you win them over with the ethical debate, they are more likely to be dedicated to be vegan.

BTW this section is called "philosophy". If you have no interest in ethics then don't engage in this section of the forum?
 

JacobVeganism

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I don't think that meat eaters can be won over by hardline ethical debate. To inspire people to change their lives, try looking at how advertisers convince people to buy products and services.
Well it is exclusively how I was won over and how many others are. Look to the likes of Joey Carbstrong, Earthing Ed and Humane Hancock. They present the ethical argument in a calm manner and it very often works.
 

JacobVeganism

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It can absolutely be a valid comparison. I mean, animal slavery IS slavery and animal rape IS rape. The fact that it's so likely to offend is a result of deeply ingrained speciesism/human supremacy, animal's rights and suffering so devalued in our society that it's insulting to lower human rights and suffering to the same level.
It appears you have misunderstood my point aswell. Re-read my initial statement. I have never used slavery or rape as a comparison of conditions. I have used them as EXAMPLES of where irrational justifications can lead. These are two very different things.
 

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I have never claimed that "animal agriculture is worse than slavery" because that would be offensive. However, I can claim that it is wrong, even if it isn't AS wrong as slavery.

now you bring in a trying to list in heirachy of most important to least imortant issues...interesting....that is i suggest the root of human mind sets also...someone is better or worse than some one else...some group of people is better or worse than someone else...

stealing from poor people is worse than stealing from the rich type of arguement....

but...what do you mean by...animal agriculture is not as wrong as slavery ? is it because non human animals lives do not matter as much as human ones ? I am confused and seek clarification ...

some could argue...since DEATH is the ultimate motive and outcome of animal agriculture for all the victims it is worse surely ?

being "alive" is better than being "dead" as the rationale for that hierachy of what you want to do...make something more or less important than something else.

1st point I make is...If you could answer that question...is being dead not more important drastic than simply being owned ? that could help see what your thoughts are...mindset...

I do add...PETS are like slaves...a British recent RSPCA head John Bryant wrote a book called "Fettered Kingdoms" where he indeed described dogs on collars and leads as "slavery" of non human animals...calling them "members of our families" as many do is exactly what human slave owners said to justify keeping human slaves...he found it a useful analogy...comparison...because people had a reference of similar treatment to see the problem he wished to raise.

No animal in the wild keeps an animal as a PET for life. It is unnatural and just does not take place...like humans...animals keep their young until they are old enough to go free and live lives of their own choice. So comparing keeping humans forever as adults to keeping non humans forever as adults by additionally a different species is a valid comparison to make surely ? what is offensive in the comparison ? is what I fail to understand...unless...ANY comparison of non humans to humans is deemed offensive...due to the idea that humans are superior to non humans. Which imho is racist/speciesist.

Back to my additional 2nd point i would like considered....I do not personally try and say..."which is worse"...either something is morally wrong or it is not...to my way of thinking...if pushed...i can see and agree that some actions are worse than others...death being worse than slavery...stealing from a poor person worse than from a rich person...excuse me i cannot think of many others right now but 2 examples are enough i hope...

2. Does it matter ? whether being human slave prisoner or being a PET or FARM ANIMAL prisoner is not exactly the same thing to make an analogy ? because whilst both the human and non human realise they are "prisoners" with impositions on them and restrictions of rights and freedoms...whether the prisoner is a Jew or a race of humans used to being treated as "servants" rather like "slaves" who still exist today underground or simply in some cultures where it is actually arguable as to whether the perceived by some "slavery" is real or more a "relationship of employment" status...one could argue until the non vegan cows came home about whether "Pets" are prisoners or perceive themselves to be or not of course but since no one ever asked them if they wanted their genitals cut off ...and Eunoch human slaves never were asked if they wanted their genitals cut off either i remind us...so a similar issue...we would get nowhere in the discussion i suggest...

what is so offensive ? to whome ? about comparing prisoner status of a human to a non human ?

unless human superiority matters and is offended ?

which to my way of thinking is actually a huge problem and the root of why people "take offence" so easily at ANY analogy or comparison of mistreatment of humans and non humans....we could easily offend people by saying "putting food on the table of a child that is nutritious rather than giving them what they would want like just chocolate" is "forcing" diets on them just as farm animals and pets are "forced" to eat whatever pet food is bought for them by their human owners....i mean once we object to any analogies between species...nothing is possible anymore to use as explanatory analogies and so understanding is lost.

Actually not wishing to digress...but that issue...of "parents forcing kids to eat or not murder their friends or steal from others" issue comes up often in discussions about veganism ... i personally do not see veganism the issue as many of the things "forced" on kids by parents are nothing to do with veganism but human issues and i fail to see much difference...in a parent refusing to let a kid drive a car and kill others to a kid not being allowed to eat nothing but chocolate as that is what they would choose with zero comprehension of nutrition.

As for PETS well again not wishing to digress but having made the analogy...putting food the owner knows is nutrition needed in a dish not letting the pet eat chocolate as it would choose to and actually die from as toxic is much the same issue. I do not call either the human kid impositions or non human pet impositions made "forcing" anything on them except of course they are both "prisoners" but dare i suggest not "slaves " except for the non human PET who will never when grown up be "free" which the human kid will and can then eat chocolate to their hearts content without the imposition of the parent captor making those decisions.



When people use "analogies" to help others try and empathise or understand a situation...they do not need to say the 2 stories are exactly the same...just similar...analogies...often use totally different stories to explain things...eg...some in the current animal consumption caused pandemic say...it is like adding fuel to the fire to eat meat in a pandemic...that does not mean adding fuel to a fire is literally the same...it simply means ..."making matters worse" using an "analogy"

So in that sense...there is imho absolutely nothing wrong with using analogies of...rape...slavery...the holocaust...and btw the latter is used often by Jewish persons who definitely see a strong analogy in comparing the imprisonment of non human animals and killing them in gas chambers to what was done to human prisoners...so to say...well it is ok for a Jew to make such an analogy but not a non Jew is i suggest racist in itself. Often today...white people are told they have no right to speak out in defense of black or coloured people as they are "white privileged" ...i find this jaw dropping arrogance imho and disagree that only black people can speak out for black people...

However....on that point..."who can speak out" it is clear...non human animals...being "dumb" without speech and let no one kick off about that statement being an insult to the disabled dumb humans unable to speak...i simply mean non human animals "no speak English" do not communicate as our species does ...so who speaks for them? humans like I do. If that is "human white supremacist" to speak for animals as well as speak for black rights then i say this pc nonsense has gone far too far and is missing the point simply to "want to take offense" rather than seeing the motive purpose of any analogy that people use every day in many situations comparing totally different actions and scenes to make a point of similarity of issue.
 
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JacobVeganism

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now you bring in a trying to list in heirachy of most important to least imortant issues...interesting....that is i suggest the root of human mind sets also...someone is better or worse than some one else...some group of people is better or worse than someone else...

stealing from poor people is worse than stealing from the rich type of arguement....

but...what do you mean by...animal agriculture is not as wrong as slavery ? is it because non human animals lives do not matter as much as human ones ? I am confused and seek clarification ...

some could argue...since DEATH is the ultimate motive and outcome of animal agriculture for all the victims it is worse surely ?

being "alive" is better than being "dead" as the rationale for that hierachy of what you want to do...make something more or less important than something else.

1st point I make is...If you could answer that question...is being dead not more important drastic than simply being owned ? that could help see what your thoughts are...mindset...

I do add...PETS are like slaves...a British recent RSPCA head John Bryant wrote a book called "Fettered Kingdoms" where he indeed described dogs on collars and leads as "slavery" of non human animals...calling them "members of our families" as many do is exactly what human slave owners said to justify keeping human slaves...he found it a useful analogy...comparison...because people had a reference of similar treatment to see the problem he wished to raise.

No animal in the wild keeps an animal as a PET for life. It is unnatural and just does not take place...like humans...animals keep their young until they are old enough to go free and live lives of their own choice. So comparing keeping humans forever as adults to keeping non humans forever as adults by additionally a different species is a valid comparison to make surely ? what is offensive in the comparison ? is what I fail to understand...unless...ANY comparison of non humans to humans is deemed offensive...due to the idea that humans are superior to non humans. Which imho is racist/speciesist.

Back to my additional 2nd point i would like considered....I do not personally try and say..."which is worse"...either something is morally wrong or it is not...to my way of thinking...if pushed...i can see and agree that some actions are worse than others...death being worse than slavery...stealing from a poor person worse than from a rich person...excuse me i cannot think of many others right now but 2 examples are enough i hope...

2. Does it matter ? whether being human slave prisoner or being a PET or FARM ANIMAL prisoner is not exactly the same thing to make an analogy ? because whilst both the human and non human realise they are "prisoners" with impositions on them and restrictions of rights and freedoms...whether the prisoner is a Jew or a race of humans used to being treated as "servants" rather like "slaves" who still exist today underground or simply in some cultures where it is actually arguable as to whether the perceived by some "slavery" is real or more a "relationship of employment" status...one could argue until the non vegan cows came home about whether "Pets" are prisoners or perceive themselves to be or not of course but since no one ever asked them if they wanted their genitals cut off ...and Eunoch human slaves never were asked if they wanted their genitals cut off either i remind us...so a similar issue...we would get nowhere in the discussion i suggest...

what is so offensive ? to whome ? about comparing prisoner status of a human to a non human ?

unless human superiority matters and is offended ?

which to my way of thinking is actually a huge problem and the root of why people "take offence" so easily at ANY analogy or comparison of mistreatment of humans and non humans....we could easily offend people by saying "putting food on the table of a child that is nutritious rather than giving them what they would want like just chocolate" is "forcing" diets on them just as farm animals and pets are "forced" to eat whatever pet food is bought for them by their human owners....i mean once we object to any analogies between species...nothing is possible anymore to use as explanatory analogies and so understanding is lost.



When people use "analogies" to help others try and empathise or understand a situation...they do not need to say the 2 stories are exactly the same...just similar...analogies...often use totally different stories to explain things...eg...some in the current animal consumption caused pandemic say...it is like adding fuel to the fire to eat meat in a pandemic...that does not mean adding fuel to a fire is literally the same...it simply means ..."making matters worse" using an "analogy"

So in that sense...there is imho absolutely nothing wrong with using analogies of...rape...slavery...the holocaust...and btw the latter is used often by Jewish persons who definitely see a strong analogy in comparing the imprisonment of non human animals and killing them in gas chambers to what was done to human prisoners...so to say...well it is ok for a Jew to make such an analogy but not a non Jew is i suggest racist in itself. Often today...white people are told they have no right to speak out in defense of black or coloured people as they are "white privileged" ...i find this jaw dropping arrogance imho and disagree that only black people can speak out for black people...

However....on that point..."who can speak out" it is clear...non human animals...being "dumb" without speech and let no one kick off about that statement being an insult to the disabled dumb humans unable to speak...i simply mean non human animals "no speak English" do not communicate as our species does ...so who speaks for them? humans like I do. If that is "human white supremacist" to speak for animals as well as speak for black rights then i say this pc nonsense has gone far too far and is missing the point simply to "want to take offense" rather than seeing the motive purpose of any analogy that people use every day in many situations comparing totally different actions and scenes to make a point of similarity of issue.
I didn't mean that animal agriculture is less bad than slavery, I meant that to make the comparison overtly is tedious and futile. My point is that I'm being criticised for something I haven't even done: compare in a utilitarian manner, which is worse between two abominations.

I agree with the rest of your statement; outrage culture is quite toxic. People seem to love to find a reason to hate.
 
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Vegan Dogs

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I didn't mean that animal agriculture is less bad than slavery, I meant that to make the comparison overtly is tedious and futile. My point is that I'm being criticised for something I haven't even done: compare in a utilitarian manner, which is worse between two abominations.

whoops i am lost again... so i failed to spot what you were being criticised for then...i will have a nother search lol cheers
 

JacobVeganism

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whoops i am lost again... so i failed to spot what you were being criticised for then...i will have a nother search lol cheers
It's fine, I worded it wrong. I said it's not AS wrong as slavery, bit what I meant is it is not for me to say
 
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Vegan Dogs

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I do think it's both racist to compare human slavery with animal rights as well as misogynistic to compare women to cows.
No reason to make comparisons, in fact by doing so most likely will further alienate people, as you have already found.
Advocate for veganism on it's own merit. It's healthier, it's better environmentally, it's cheaper, cleaner, and quite diverse. When you can understand that you have no arguement.


so according to you...and i quote you...do not mention the evil things humans do to non human animals like the "rape rack" for forcibly inseminating cows so called by the industry itself....

One cannot mention the word "murder" either

One cannot mention "animal abuse"

now if the word "cruelty" is only allowed if talking in refernce to humans...that word too has to be ignored.

So why ? do we have laws about "animal cruelty" ? meaning....beating animals up...killing them in torturous ways ? if talking about cruelty and murder is only applicable to human animals...

ah yes...some even say...not alllowed to say "meat is murder" as only humans can be murdered.

I think ? this is nonsense...

"

Advocate for veganism on it's own merit. It's healthier, it's better environmentally, it's cheaper, cleaner, and quite diverse. When you can understand that you have no arguement. "

that is what i quote you said were the only things to mention to get people to stop murdering animals...not mention at all the deaths of animals in fact is clear in your list.

Well good luck to you i say if you convert the masses on those valid grounds of selfish reasons to go vegan rather than saving animals lives...good luck to you...i am SURE many are selfish and will wake up to see pandemics like the current one are down to animal agriculture and murders....well actually no i do not think so...until more die people just want to drive as fast as they want and eat what they want...

and for sure cancers health issues are avoided by eating vegan....

but what about the "i like to wear fur coats" people ? they are warm after all...a good selfish reason to wear them.

ok you are not bothered about those i take it...as maybe you would argue some artificial coats are as warm and cheaper to entice the selfish motive to not buy animal fur coats....

Let us leave animal vivisection alone too according to that list...i mean the EU just overturned the ban on animal testing for cosmetics btw ...so now it is MANDATORY to test on animals to sell cosmetics so i read.

anyway.

good luck with not mentioning "abuse" and "murder" and "rape" and "slavery" of non human animals and "sell" veganism for those parts that the health and environment and cheapness arguments convince...except...you fail to realise...whilst ALDI cheaper supermarkets are liked...many like to eat "expensive" to show off...and meat...is mostly about showing off wealth culturally everywhere...that is how we got to 80 billion land animals and trillions of fish and marine animals killed to feed just the 20 percent rich population of humans in this world.

Fur coats same issue...the COST is the attraction.

There is another big hole in your arguement when it comes to the "sell based on cheapness" issue...that is not good for business...business is out to make money...Behond Meat etc are not interested in being CHEAP but making money...so are in fact more expensive and only cheap right now to "catch the market" as loss leaders maybe...who knows...but no one is going to be in business if it is not profitable.

I think...that is the major obstacle to the world going vegan...how...do governments deal with...an economy that would need 1000s less land to grow food...less water...less everything...unless the prices are high enough to compensate for the huge money spent by governements on subsidising animal agriculture farmers...who spend then on machinery fur coats etc so it all goes round the economy again sometime....

well the health service costs pay the pharmaceutical businesses even if people die...that saves government pensions money

Here is an interesting possibly analogy....just thought of it...so i share...

What about...as someone said in this thread...we "sell" like businesses sell things ? ideas can be "sold" well Martin Luther King took no lessons in sales but he sure did sell well...

so back to the issue i wish to raise....

what if...

FEAR sells ? tell people they are going to DIE of more pandemics and cancers etc if they do not stop killing animals...whooops...avoid the word KILL relating to non human animals excuse me...

will that sell ?

project fear ?

just a thought.

You see...the problem i see in that is ?

that is selling on NEGATIVES like FEAR.

Whilst AR animal rights activists...seem to me...to wish to sell based on EMPATHY and SYMPATHY and JUSTICE appeals to humans.

which involve...talking of the "injustice" and "abuse" and "murders" that are unethical and so meant to touch the moral consciences of people.

I see nothing in your list...that deals with anything MORAL is my problem...and whilst "god is dead man has killed him" as Nietzsche wrote...and it is fashionable to dismiss and mock any morality of ethical gods or religions nowadays that talk about rights and wrongs in justice terms....i feel....people do seem to have some problems with justice and moral issues so it does sell.

It has brought up interesting issues this issue..."how to sell" being imho the most interesting issue mentioned by some here....

AFter all...veganism HAS to be SOLD for sure...before laws change...ideas have to change...and that is a "sales job"

LOL i just thought to myself..."what is in it for me ? moi !" i mean all this selling of veganism...the "save the planet" when i have 30 years left to live so do i care about the other generations really ?

my health ? i am already vegan so why should i care if others are more healthy also ? nothing to do with me...except they cost me taxes of health care i do realise....but that is too remote a reason...

WTF am i online...pouring out thoughts on veganism at all ? i am vegan ! i do not need persuading any longer !

aha...could it be...that i want to "save animals lives" ? eeek hey...that is not in your list of reasons to go vegan.

Why should I ? they have no idea what all this is about...they just fear death when they see it coming...suffer the imprisonment as owned by us humans as best possible...they have no gratitude to me...do not understand what i am banging on keyboards wearing vegan tshirts about...so there is no "pay back" in this for me to promote explain veganism...from the animals lives i save
 
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"Meateater" do you mean omnivore ? I think documentaries or speakers on health and fitness may win over some to go plant base or predominantly plant base diet.
 
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JacobVeganism

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"Meateater" do you mean omnivore ? I think documentaries or speakers on health and fitness may win over some to go plant base or predominantly plant base diet.
The health argument doesn't stop people from buying leather... Or wool... Or animal tested products...
 
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I read the other day an Oxford UK report that said loads of land in the uk could be "rewilded" for the environment and wild life if agriculture changed to vegan.

40 percent of soy imported by the uk is for farm animal feed in the uk another point causing 80 percent of the deforestation of the amazon in brazil.

However....it is "hard work" to sell things on "save the hedgehog" or "save the badger" grounds...right now...badgers in the uk are being decimated to protect raped dairy cows from TB disease....and no one is interested in the environement if they cannot get a plane to Malaga cheaply. I am actually curious about the issues of costs of travel and holidays coming up after this animal consumption caused pandemic just waiting for the next one to put airfairs up in prices and airlines out of business...

One is mistaken imho...to think the clapping for Greta THunberg about "planes = bad" stuff stopped anyone flying on holiday had the pandemic not taken place.

All people like to do is pot bang...blame others...the government...say things like....oh isnt it aweful...and carry on...until they reach a road block or some virus puts the prices of the things they do up so much it stops them.
 

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MEAT IS MURDER...one of my car stickers states.

Prove me wrong. Pretty please.

ps I just saw someone object to the use of the word "meat eater" well I will go further than that...i am BANNING the word MEAT ...i refuse to call animals MEAT.

The word MEAT...originally in ancient times meant "food"...yes yes ! and that is how the Genesis passages talking about "they will be meat for you" talking about PLANTS in the Garden of Eden still in some versions of the good book use the word MEAT for FOOD.

So back to my main point other than that educational issue about semantics...

I am no longer...going to call anyone a "meat eater" or an "omnivore" but what then ? an "animal eater"

Taxonomy classifications...put people...and animals...into "boxes" for classification purposes. They are as the Pirates in the Carribean said..."guidelines not actual rules"

The reality is...a Hyper Carnivore...is not the same as ..an Obligate Carnivore...or a simple Carnivore...and if people cannot understand what the differences of those 3 taxonomy classes are then it is pointless imho to argue what an "omnivore" is...yes i saw a row over the term "omnivore" the other day some saying it means you ate both plants and animals and others saying it meant you COULD eat either but did not need to eat both...

When one gets...to such levels of what i call "semantics" one has lost the plot.

Let us KISS...meaning ? keep is simple and stupid as we said in business...

"animal eater"

ps has this group updated the Taxonomy Classifications with the term "plant based" ? i must take a look...i have never seen anyone classifying themselves as "plant based" in this group is why i suddenly wondered...yet...it is a very common term and classification used for people into diets out there nowadays.

Most vegans manage to row greatly over whether they are "vegan" or "plant based"

i would go for gold...double whammy...i would choose to call myself...

Plant Based AND vegan !

ps relevant to this post theme...i will add...being myself heavily into PETS topics and admin of vegan pets groups....i have to say..the word OMNIVORE...to me...brings up the picture of ? a DOG lol ! no insults to humans intended in that joke...but...you see...i find it funny when i see a human describe themselves as an OMNIVORE because that word is mostly used in relation to talk about DOGS in my life lol and i would not wish to offend any man by calling him a dog of course or thinking of him as a dog...because we all know what that allegation means wink wink.
 
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Vegan Dogs

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It's fine, I worded it wrong. I said it's not AS wrong as slavery, bit what I meant is it is not for me to say

gosh i just noticed your age...excuse me for showing surprise...i mean it as a compliment i add...so young...compared to ? me of course...and daring to enter the fray on such topics...i admire you...seriously...i was no way up to your level at your age. sadly.

oh well there IS hope for the world...and the animals...when such people as you even take an interest is all i can end saying on that topic. As clint eastwood would say..."you made my day" lol...and now...to the eternal gratitude i am sure of admins of this group...i shall bid ye gudday and go out in the sunshine after a shower it is sunny in the uk today

wow...it was YOU who started this high level topic thread...wow...

well...as the good book said...and who will lead them ?

Isaiah-11-6.jpg
 
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Vegan Dogs

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actually...this post...is about ...effective vegan advocacy ...

and i think...that Gary L Francione wrote a book on it...that i have not bought or read i add...

mind you...he is hard line...bans most vegans on his facebook page...seriously ! you only have to show "lack of empathy" and you get banned there...you only have to mention "meatless mondays" and you get banned there...you only have to mention "veganuary" and you get banned there.

oh i managed my ban along with thousands of others so safety in numbers ? well not if a farm animal of course...anyway

softly softly catchee monkey...is some expression used non vegan one of course but meaning...go gently and artful dodger style sneakily to catch people into anything...selling it to them without them realising it even...i mean what is the most common complaint about vegans ?

they "shove veganism down your throat"

i would be a MILLIONAIRE if i got a dime every time i got that comment to me.

I get pedantic and psychological analytical in my replies...

words...are not shoving anything down anyones throat...the analogy is total crap

what people ARE shoving down their throats themselves not forced to is dead animals and that is i suggest the reason they use those terms about eating and throats and the subconscious has the words sticking in their throats as their consciences are disturbed so they are angry

and actually...demos when people are eating are suspect...all my pets like to eat in peace and growl snarl etc if interfered with...humans might be more civilised but disturb me when i am eating and i am not pleasant. i do not even answer the phone if i am eating. i spend a great deal of time with my dogs who set the example

which actually brings us to a very very important point in this "how to sell veganism"

whether for the planet wild life human health or the animals lives...all are affected it is true...

and i care less for some of those aspects than others i add...

EATING...is such a primal animal instinctual activity...i have never seen any species of any animal not be aggressive to defend their food

so ? THAT IS WHAT VEGANISM IS UP AGAINST...a WAR with other than SEX the most primal instinct of humans or any animals !

whoops i got into "fighting language" there hey i just noticed...talking about WAR...on whom ? whoops...we need to SELL not kill the opposition lol...well actually not all vegans would agree with that...some see deaths of humans as beneficial to the planet...pass that one...

What we need...is population control ? nope.

what we need is...free choice to stop murdering animals and causing all the health and planet problems....well incentives work...like ? taxes...subsidies...good chefs coming up with delicious recepes...i mean taste matters greatly...so some "big stick" financial incentives and measures from governments needed....project FEAR more ? amazing how everyone is harping on about MASKS in a pandemic rather than what caused it and the next one on the horizon while shoving dead bats chickens down their throats when frozen chicken has been found to carry the virus 3 weeks lol...well not so lol if you die of it...only lol to some vegans seeing animals lives saved by 1 less animal eater of course...i mean when some lion killed the hunter or some bull killed the matador not only some vegans whooped with joy at the human deaths hey....lets not forget that...

where was I ?

selling veganism

well START EM YOUNG...change the school dinners to get good habits started. the main issue is smoking eating animals is a bad habit and needs a few weeks to be got rid of.
 
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