That meat feeling

[slamwaters]

Hola herbivores,

I literally just created an account so I could post this, and please forgive my simple *** if this is a thread that has been posted on here already - if so please feel free to send me a link

Anyway !

So I've been morally in-line with the whole vegi/vegan thing for the past 1-2 years(ish). I really **** with the arguments; environmental / ethical / sustainability. But I guess I have low will power, or I'm just applying the wrong strategy to my diet. I almost never buy meat now when I'm at the super market or out at a restaurant, but if I'm round at someone's house and they've cooked me a meal with meat in it I don't turn it down, and I'm liable to order something non-vegi if I've had a drink. Right now I'd say I have meat possibly once, or twice a week. Which is down a lot from what I used to be like.

I guess my question for you guys is this - whenever I do have meat, I feel absolutely re-energised after. I feel like I have a different kind of energy in me, like my mind feels a bit sharper, and my energy levels spike - I'm often more productive, and even a little more positive in my mental health game. I did a little research and it's not uncommon for vegans to report higher levels of depression than meat eaters.

Which has made me think - I'm probably missing out on some key nutrients that are present in meat, which is why my body feels better after consumption. So I'm asking you guys - what are they? And how do I get them by going down the vegi / vegan route? Is it protien, iron, zinc, selenium, vit A,B/ D? This has been causing me a lot of stress, because my conscious desperately wants to go vegetarian / vegan, but I don't think I can deny that meat has some nutritional benefits, and I don't want to be walking around all day feeling **** because I'm malnourished.

I'm very much working by trial and error basis with this vegan thing, there's so much contradictory data out there, like you can google the benefits of eating meat, or the benefits of going plant based and different studies tell you contradictory information, so all I can really go off is how I feel applying each strategy. And perhaps there's also a margin for personal difference, maybe I'm just one of those people that needs a balance? And perhaps minimal meat may be better than abstinence.

Would really appreciate some thoughts on this from people who have been in the vegan game for longer than me - I am asking for help! I'll be around today and tomorrow checking this thread to reply to any advice you have

Peas & love
Sam

 

[amberfunk]

The only things you would get from meat than you don't get from plants is cholesterol and b12. Plus all the antibiotics and growth hormones in meat. Take a b12 supplement, most vegans do. You don't need cholesterol. Your body produces enough already. You most likely don't eat enough calories when you eat veggie or have lower iron. It takes practice for some to be able to get enough iron absorbed from plants. You have to pair iron foods with vitamin c to help absorption and not have anything with it that would effect it being absorbed like coffee.

 

[slamwaters]

The only things you would get from meat than you don't get from plants is cholesterol and b12. Plus all the antibiotics and growth hormones in meat. Take a b12 supplement, most vegans do. You don't need cholesterol. Your body produces enough already. You most likely don't eat enough calories when you eat veggie or have lower iron. It takes practice for some to be able to get enough iron absorbed from plants. You have to pair iron foods with vitamin c to help absorption and not have anything with it that would effect it being absorbed like coffee.

Very helpful thoughts ! Thanks a lot

I have a couple of follow ups -
1/ Where do I find B12 supplements? And is there not a danger in using supplements? It doesn't feel like a very natural way to approach your diet..
2/ Your point about calories may very well be true, often if I can't find a veggie lunch when I'm at work I'll stick to a smoothie or salad, which probably doesn't provide enough energy for the rest of the day
3/ I don't drink coffee, but I'll try having more orange juice with meals in future, what exactly are good 'Iron foods'?

Thanks again,
Sam

 

[Sax]

I occasionally have raisin bran cereal with soymilk....both of which are fortified with b12. A lot of cereal is practically of multi-vitamin they're so heavily fortified. Processed foods are no more natural than taking supplements.

 

[Nekodaiden]

I guess my question for you guys is this - whenever I do have meat, I feel absolutely re-energised after. I feel like I have a different kind of energy in me, like my mind feels a bit sharper, and my energy levels spike - I'm often more productive, and even a little more positive in my mental health game. I did a little research and it's not uncommon for vegans to report higher levels of depression than meat eaters.

Hmm. Even when I was a meat eater I did not experience this. Coffee/other caffeinated beverage directly after or with meals are the norm in societies that eat lots of meat/animal products because the animal products cause fatigue - the body spends a lot of energy dealing with them. I find your assessment a little difficult to believe from purely an energy perspective. One of the first things I noticed I had more of when I went vegan was more energy, not less.

Which has made me think - I'm probably missing out on some key nutrients that are present in meat, which is why my body feels better after consumption. So I'm asking you guys - what are they? And how do I get them by going down the vegi / vegan route? Is it protien, iron, zinc, selenium, vit A,B/ D? This has been causing me a lot of stress, because my conscious desperately wants to go vegetarian / vegan, but I don't think I can deny that meat has some nutritional benefits, and I don't want to be walking around all day feeling **** because I'm malnourished.

Every time one consumes animal flesh (be it milk, cheese, meats, eggs, fish etc) that person feeds a certain bacteria in their gut (Bacteroides) that plays a part in digesting it (with toxic byproducts from that digestion). When a person goes vegan, those bacteria start to starve, and are taken over by the beneficial bacteria that munches on fiber rich foods instead(with beneficial bypoducts from that digestion).

The reason you feel better after a flesh meal is that your body is not yet accustomed to eating vegan and those bad bacteria are still living in you and demanding their share of flesh. They do die off/become way less when you replace the animal products with lots of fiber that feeds their nemesis - Prevotella. It took about a month for me. Maybe less or more for others.

 

[Consistency]

The Vitamin that many people don't tell you that is missing from plant sources and is found in good amounts in meat is Vitamin B3. Vitamin D and B12 is very important for those of us living in cold climates.

There is B-Complex vitamins out there with Niacinamide(Vitamin B3) but they mostly contain synthetic B6 which is neurotoxic(breaks down the nervous system).

A major deficiency I've noticed since moving back to Canada from Italy is Sunshine deficiency. I use a 500w halogen work light 3 feet away to stimulate my biology during the winter. I use the one from home depot as the stand is good quality.

I don't know where you live but I highly recommend morning or afternoon sunshine as I've found it to always be the healthiest as it doesn't burn me.

 

[Nekodaiden]

The Vitamin that many people don't tell you that is missing from plant sources and is found in good amounts in meat is Vitamin B3. Vitamin D and B12 is very important for those of us living in cold climates.

There is B-Complex vitamins out there with Niacinamide(Vitamin B3) but they mostly contain synthetic B6 which is neurotoxic(breaks down the nervous system).

A major deficiency I've noticed since moving back to Canada from Italy is Sunshine deficiency. I use a 500w halogen work light 3 feet away to stimulate my biology during the winter. I use the one from home depot as the stand is good quality.

I don't know where you live but I highly recommend morning or afternoon sunshine as I've found it to always be the healthiest as it doesn't burn me.

Vitamin B3 isn't missing from plant based foods. In fact in many cases it's more abundant in them than animal foods (excluding animal liver, which is something most meat eaters don't eat or eat regularly):

https://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000110000000000000000-w.html

 

[slamwaters]

This has all been super helpful - thank you guys!

One thing I'm picking up on with my research is that in meat some of the nutritional benefits are simply more 'bioavailable', whatever that means. I can pair that with my own personal experience, as recently I went to a food court area that was selling 'the best vegan pizza in London' and afterwards me and some friends went to get more food, where someone bought a huge plate of pulled pork burritos, and I'm sorry to say that after one of those I quickly felt more alert, energised, revitalised. I appreciate this is anecdotal evidence, but it's my experience!

Another thing I'm taking into consideration is perhaps I am simply not having enough calories, perhaps the reason a burger fills me up more is because often if I struggle to find a decent vegi/vegan option than I won't eat anything, which can't be a good habit to have in the long run.

I appreciate this is a long road, and I guess I need to apply more trial and error. And perhaps allocate more time in my life for meal prep, and working out where I can hit all the key nutritional sources that I need. I'm finding that it's very easy to do a vegan diet badly, and I guess that's what puts some people off who dip their toes into veganism initially.

Thanks a lot for all of your info, it's helping me a lot !

 

[Forest Nymph]

I think you're just eating more calories and fat when you eat meat. It could also be "comfort food" psychological reaction. I've never seen anything that verifies scientifically that anything is more "bioavailable" through meat, since livestock like cattle are fed B12 supplements (yes that's right), and flesh actually has very few nutrients than calories, protein and fat. Simply having low iron wouldn't even cause this, iron deficiencies aren't "cured" by a single meal. In fact the only thing that is cured by a single meal is ...CALORIES.

I'm thinking you need to eat more vegan proteins and fats. You need more beans, tofu, nuts, nut butters, and pair them bread, rice, pasta and oils to get a higher calorie meal with complete protein and more fat.

I can't imagine eating meat again, bacon actually stinks to me now, but I have had cravings for things like cheese pizza - and that's usually because I want fat and calories or comfort food.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Hmm. Even when I was a meat eater I did not experience this. Coffee/other caffeinated beverage directly after or with meals are the norm in societies that eat lots of meat/animal products because the animal products cause fatigue - the body spends a lot of energy dealing with them. I find your assessment a little difficult to believe from purely an energy perspective. One of the first things I noticed I had more of when I went vegan was more energy, not less.



Every time one consumes animal flesh (be it milk, cheese, meats, eggs, fish etc) that person feeds a certain bacteria in their gut (Bacteroides) that plays a part in digesting it (with toxic byproducts from that digestion). When a person goes vegan, those bacteria start to starve, and are taken over by the beneficial bacteria that munches on fiber rich foods instead(with beneficial bypoducts from that digestion).

The reason you feel better after a flesh meal is that your body is not yet accustomed to eating vegan and those bad bacteria are still living in you and demanding their share of flesh. They do die off/become way less when you replace the animal products with lots of fiber that feeds their nemesis - Prevotella. It took about a month for me. Maybe less or more for others.

Oooh....maybe he needs K2...that can easily be had from kombucha, pickles, sourkraut or any probiotic fermented food (like pickled beets).

 

[Consistency]

Vitamin B3 isn't missing from plant based foods. In fact in many cases it's more abundant in them than animal foods (excluding animal liver, which is something most meat eaters don't eat or eat regularly):

https://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000110000000000000000-w.html

Grains don't count as not everyone can digest them without issues.

Care to solve the following riddle?
http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.ca/2016/09/niacin-turbocharges-growth-hormone.html

 

[Nekodaiden]

Grains don't count as not everyone can digest them without issues.

Humans have been eating grains for thousands and thousands of years. Issues digesting them are likely due to the relatively recent practice of using un-germinated and only partially cooked grain for things like breads and pasta (the cooking will get rid of some of the phytates, though). Meat and other animal products can cause indigestion especially when combined with starches, and people not used to seed type products (which includes grains, beans, nuts and seeds), especially if they are not soaked and/or cooked prior to consuming can all have issues. Allergies can develop also when they are routinely mixed with animal products.


Another thing to consider is that the microbes in the human gut adapt to what they are fed on a regular basis. Phytates can actually be broken down by them if they are a regular part of the diet (which to some extent they are for people eating commercial breads). Otherwise, the best idea to both reduce these compounds and increase vitamin amounts and mineral availability is to soak and/or sprout them.

Care to solve the following riddle?
http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.ca/2016/09/niacin-turbocharges-growth-hormone.html

About the article you linked. It smells of Paleo bs to me. The majority of the links are to his own articles and then I noticed that his listed blogs and sites where he comments include quite a few paleo sites. In addition, the basic premise is flawed, just on history. Niacin in the large amounts described are not only not found in nature but in such large amounts are not needed to build muscle. Quite honestly, it sounds like the type of article a vitamin company would put out there to market their vitamins.

Just soak and sprout your grains if they cause issues. Extra vitamins (many of them are not reduced by cooking, Niacin included) are provided for free when this is done.

 

[Consistency]

Humans have been eating grains for thousands and thousands of years. Issues digesting them are likely due to the relatively recent practice of using un-germinated and only partially cooked grain for things like breads and pasta (the cooking will get rid of some of the phytates, though). Meat and other animal products can cause indigestion especially when combined with starches, and people not used to seed type products (which includes grains, beans, nuts and seeds), especially if they are not soaked and/or cooked prior to consuming can all have issues. Allergies can develop also when they are routinely mixed with animal products.


Another thing to consider is that the microbes in the human gut adapt to what they are fed on a regular basis. Phytates can actually be broken down by them if they are a regular part of the diet (which to some extent they are for people eating commercial breads). Otherwise, the best idea to both reduce these compounds and increase vitamin amounts and mineral availability is to soak and/or sprout them.

It would be great if you understood that my point of view is neutral. I am not in favor of meat consumption.

I disagree about grains. I've still had issues even when soaking them. Maybe fermenting them might change when I have time to experiment. My issues though are with the proteins in these grains. Gluten especially easily inflames my frontal lobe.

Meat has growth factors(IGF1, hormones, etc..) that we can produce ourselves in higher amounts when we are physically active. I feel that it is important for others and the OP to understand the benefits of being physically active while consuming a well balanced cooked plant diet.

About the article you linked. It smells of Paleo bs to me. The majority of the links are to his own articles and then I noticed that his listed blogs and sites where he comments include quite a few paleo sites. In addition, the basic premise is flawed, just on history. Niacin in the large amounts described are not only not found in nature but in such large amounts are not needed to build muscle. Quite honestly, it sounds like the type of article a vitamin company would put out there to market their vitamins.

Just soak and sprout your grains if they cause issues. Extra vitamins (many of them are not reduced by cooking, Niacin included) are provided for free when this is done.

You've misunderstood the point of the article. It is on a paleo blog but it is simply a layman's term explanation with some assumptions of a very important piece of scientific research.

 

[ThaiVegan]

If you are halfway and keep eating meat occasionally, your body wont switch completely and will want to get its nutrients from the old sources, "meat". Its like quitting smoking cigarettes, if you still smoke occasionaly, your body didnt switch completely and you still crave nicotine. Only when you completely stop smoking your body will break that habit and no longer crave nicotine. Bite the bullet and stop completely.

 

[Kellyr]

I think most everyone has touched on the important points for your feelings.

One suggestion I might have RE: those pulled pork burritos is that your sudden zing in energy could be accounted for by excess sugar. (When I think of pulled pork, I think BBQ sauce, and BBQ sauce is essentially pure sugar with a few savory flavors added.) I might be wrong about your burritos, however (that they had loads of sugar in them.)

That guesstimate aside, the key to a healthy vegan / whole foods-plant based diet is variety. LOTS of it. I try to make sure, for example, that every meal I have contains fat, protein and carbs. Consuming all three of those during meals helps me with satiety.

If you have a smoothie, for example, that's only made with fruits and fruit juice then I can absolutely see where that could leave you feeling hungry afterwards as you're getting primarily just carbs with some trace amounts of protein. Make the smoothie more filling by adding nut butter to it, chia seeds, or even a good vegan protein powder. Considering you're using whole fruits and/or veg in your smoothie, then your smoothie is rounded out with fat, protein, and carbs. That said, smoothies still don't totally do their job filling me up. There's something about the food being already processed by the blender that really makes it so my body doesn't have to pause and do much work to digest it. The best solution I've found to making smoothies feel like they last longer is making them smoothie bowls that I top with some whole foods that I have to actually chew, or accompanying them with something whole like a piece of whole-grain toast spread with nut butter.

Another thing that helps me with my variety is trying my best to eat every color of the rainbow through my whole day.

For example, my food thus far today has been primarily orange, yellow, green, red, brown, white via: sweet potato, spinach, kale, nectarine, black beans, quinoa, tomatoes, carrots, pumpkin seeds, tofu, cherries. I'll be hitting up the blues/purples with some berries later today in a chia seed pudding I make with them.

Aiming to eat the rainbow can be a fun and simple way to ensure your diet is nicely varied.

 

[veganDreama]

Hello and welcome! I wish you luck going vegan.

My Dad gets me B12 spray from the health food shop. B12 is very important. Everything else can be found naturally in a vegan diet. You can also get supplemented soya milk with B12 if you prefer that. There are lots of things unnatural about drinking a substance that was meant for baby cows or goats. Also Animals in factory farms aren't allowed to express their natural behaviour as there just isn't space for them to do it.

Compared to that a tablet of B12 is natural. It's meat and milk that isn't. Our primate ancesters used to get by eating insects with the fruit they ate.