Never said it was. It's one thing if the vaccine actually does the job, but for something that "might" work, I don't see the point of making a decision that conflicts with my conscience. And before anyone goes on about there being no way to be perfect with veganism and thus we are all hypocrites, this is one decision I don't have a problem with.
Should veganism have the same legal protection as religion?
- Thread starter Second Summer
- Start date
Pickle Juice
Member
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2012
- Reaction score
- 754
In general I agree. However, I think that where you live or the duties you may be required to perform in any given job that are related to that job are on a very different scale from being forced to inhale, ingest, inject, or otherwise intake into your body anything you do not want taken into your body. Other people, via the government or other agency, may be able to decide that there are substances I may not legally ingest, but they better not ever try to tell me there is anything I should be forced to ingest.
Lord Snot
Parsley Provider
I'd say if you mistrust vaccinations and medical science and don't care about infecting ill people, nursing is not the career for you.
Why would it be harmful for your body because the strains involved are a 'best guess' as to which will cause the most harm that season?
Why would it be harmful for your body because the strains involved are a 'best guess' as to which will cause the most harm that season?
In my view I do think veganism should be taken into consideration when people are in institutions as someone else mentioned. Vegan diets should be catered for in schools, prisons, mental facilities, care homes etc...
I generally agree with this. Personally if I were working in a hospital setting or similar I would get the flu jab and I wouldn't see that as a conflict with my veganism but I don't think it should be compulsory as that seems to go against a person's human rights.
I generally agree with this. Personally if I were working in a hospital setting or similar I would get the flu jab and I wouldn't see that as a conflict with my veganism but I don't think it should be compulsory as that seems to go against a person's human rights.
Lord Snot
Parsley Provider
What about the rights of the immunocompromised people who have no choice but to accept medical care from them?
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
You're entire statement seemed to indicate that you were against immunization. And I quoted what I thought was your reason. That is, it seems you believe that the risk of harm from an injectable outweights it's potential benefits...and that's why you don't get them
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
Also, the suggestion that you can just ask to be treated by a nurse who received the shot, doesn't guarentee that that nurse actually received a shot. You just have to trust that the alternative nuse actually did get the shot. There's no way for you to verify it. So if everyone is required to get immunized, then you don't have to take their word for it.
I suppose it depends on whose rights are seen as more important. I think the right of having sovereignty over your own body is very important. IMO I don't think people should be forced to be injected with something if they strongly disagree with it and this trumps their duty to care. I think more people who work with vulnerable people should be encouraged to have the flu jab but I don't think they should be forced to have it or threatened with job loss. I read when we had the Swine Flu epidemic that quite a few doctors didn't want to have the SF jab.
You would think that the number of health care workers that did have an ethical problem with being vaccinated would be very low anyway and you would think most people working with ill people would have the jab for their own protection.
I'm actually interested to find out if the people I know in health care have had the flu jab after this discussion.
You would think that the number of health care workers that did have an ethical problem with being vaccinated would be very low anyway and you would think most people working with ill people would have the jab for their own protection.
I'm actually interested to find out if the people I know in health care have had the flu jab after this discussion.
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
With all this being said, if all flu shots contained mercury, I woudn't get it.
I'm glad there are alternatives.
I'm glad there are alternatives.
RabbitLuvr
I love rabbits.
When I went to get my allergy shot yesterday, they were making some girl who had recently had the flu wait in the back, then walk through the waiting room with a mask on.
The girl's mother tried to protest, but the receptionist said (very loudly), "we have a lot of patients with sensitive immune systems, I can't let you put them at risk." Of course, since she spoke so loudly everyone in the waiting room turned to look at the mother, who then slunk off to the back waiting room.
The girl's mother tried to protest, but the receptionist said (very loudly), "we have a lot of patients with sensitive immune systems, I can't let you put them at risk." Of course, since she spoke so loudly everyone in the waiting room turned to look at the mother, who then slunk off to the back waiting room.
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
Pickle Juice
Member
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2012
- Reaction score
- 754
This is why, as I already stated in my first post in this thread, "Surely patients who fear unvaccinated staff can request to be cared for by vaccinated staff only? If they can't I think it would be much better to mandate that they be given that choice, than to force people to get injections against their will."
There is no reason why patients who have this concern should be denied the right to see the vaccination records of any staff caring for them. If this information is being denied to them upon request I think it would be much better to legislate that this request be respected, rather than to force everyone to be vaccinated. There is also no reason why staff who are vaccinated can't receive and be required to display some sort of id tag that you can't get without being vaccinated. Dogs have to have them before they can be boarded in kennels and doggy day cares, so I don't see why something similar can't be implemented for medical staff.
I find it reprehensible that the drug industry has led immunocompromised individuals into the false belief that if everyone were vaccinated they would be safe. This is not true.
Pickle Juice
Member
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2012
- Reaction score
- 754
I simply don't share the same blind faith that most people do that there is anything in vaccines that will actually do me any good; anything in them that will do anything but make money for the companies who sell them. There is no scientific proof that people who don't get flu don't get flu because they were vaccinated. There may be statistical "proof", but statistics aren't science. There is no way to scientifically identify the reason why someone doesn't get an infection anyway, since there will always be numerous factors like maybe they weren't exposed to it in the first place, or maybe the spread of the virus in question never took place at all.
I'm certainly not going to accept statistics showing a decline of whatever this year's vaccine is supposed to protect against from the companies who sell them, as proof that they work, and the notion that they are perfectly safe and harmless is false.
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
I think the effectivness of the flu shot is calculated by the CDC, not drug companies. And if the CDC was in the pocket of the drug companies, they wouldn't have published such a low figure - 62%.
But this is good info. 62% is not much better than a coin toss, so I wasn't going to get it, untill I heard it was an unusually strong strain...but I guess that could be media hype too.
Oh, and by the way..
sta·tis·tics
/stəˈtistiks/
Noun
The practice or science of collecting and analyzing numerical data in large quantities.
Pickle Juice
Member
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2012
- Reaction score
- 754
Well in some hands statistics may be a science, but in most I think it is a practice to deceive.
ledboots
Peace
kibbleforlola
Lola Worshiper
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2012
- Reaction score
- 2,597
Honestly, I think if you work in healthcare or with the very old or the very young and refuse to get jabbed, it should be grounds for dismissal. It's part of the job - if you wanna put yourself at risk, fine; your life, your body, your choice - but that choice shouldn't effect anybody else - and someone dying because they caught your germs is not acceptable.
When I was in the Army, they lined us up in basic and jabbed us before sending us on to the next station to be jabbed again. We got so many jabs, I'm not even sure what I got. We got jabbed again before going to Korea, and then again before and after Afghanistan. We waived our right to refuse when we signed up - however, we entered into the Military with full knowledge. Imagine if one of us had caught something? When you live in close quarters, things spread fast - unit readiness would have been severely compromised.
I don't see why healthcare workers should be any different - you're working in close quarters with people who are already sick - but not only that, you are working with other people who are working with the sick. You may be fine, and the coworkers you give your nastiness may also be fine - but if none of you are vaccine, then your germs are spreading to patients exponentially. "Because I don't wanna" is not an sufficient excuse to put all those people at risk.
Pickle Juice mentioned that dogs have to have tags that say they've had their shots before being boarded - but left out the fact that these places require shots more for other dogs than for your dog. Yes, it's to protect your dog from sickness, but more importantly, it's to prevent the spread of disease in close quarters. One sick dog is bad, but a whole kennel is worse.
When I was in the Army, they lined us up in basic and jabbed us before sending us on to the next station to be jabbed again. We got so many jabs, I'm not even sure what I got. We got jabbed again before going to Korea, and then again before and after Afghanistan. We waived our right to refuse when we signed up - however, we entered into the Military with full knowledge. Imagine if one of us had caught something? When you live in close quarters, things spread fast - unit readiness would have been severely compromised.
I don't see why healthcare workers should be any different - you're working in close quarters with people who are already sick - but not only that, you are working with other people who are working with the sick. You may be fine, and the coworkers you give your nastiness may also be fine - but if none of you are vaccine, then your germs are spreading to patients exponentially. "Because I don't wanna" is not an sufficient excuse to put all those people at risk.
Pickle Juice mentioned that dogs have to have tags that say they've had their shots before being boarded - but left out the fact that these places require shots more for other dogs than for your dog. Yes, it's to protect your dog from sickness, but more importantly, it's to prevent the spread of disease in close quarters. One sick dog is bad, but a whole kennel is worse.
Pickle Juice
Member
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2012
- Reaction score
- 754
I didn't "leave that out". That should be so obvious to anyone it hardly bears mentioning, when what I brought it up for was as an example of implementing easily identifiable vaccinated staff. What you are leaving out is that in spite of not allowing unvaccinated dogs into kennels, stuff like kennel cough gets spread around like wildfire anyway. So much for vaccines preventing what they are supposed to prevent in close quarters.
kibbleforlola
Lola Worshiper
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2012
- Reaction score
- 2,597
Why some dogs still get sick even after being vaccinated for kennel cough:
There are several points to keep in mind when this scenario occurs. First, no vaccine is 100% effective. Second, the” kennel cough” vaccine does not vaccinate against “kennel cough,” and only contains 2 of the many disease organisms that can cause kennel cough, namely Bordetella bacterium and parainfluenza virus. It certainly possible your dog came down with kennel cough after he was infected with another organism that was not contained in the vaccine. Third, if he was vaccinated immediately before he was boarded, the vaccine would not have had enough time to take effect, rendering it useless.
Doesn't look like a good reason not to vaccinate your dog anyway. Parainfluenza can be deadly - I'd rather Lola have some protection than no protection. But if you want to put your animals at risk - that's on you; I'm only responsible for Lola and Alainn's lives.
There are several points to keep in mind when this scenario occurs. First, no vaccine is 100% effective. Second, the” kennel cough” vaccine does not vaccinate against “kennel cough,” and only contains 2 of the many disease organisms that can cause kennel cough, namely Bordetella bacterium and parainfluenza virus. It certainly possible your dog came down with kennel cough after he was infected with another organism that was not contained in the vaccine. Third, if he was vaccinated immediately before he was boarded, the vaccine would not have had enough time to take effect, rendering it useless.
Doesn't look like a good reason not to vaccinate your dog anyway. Parainfluenza can be deadly - I'd rather Lola have some protection than no protection. But if you want to put your animals at risk - that's on you; I'm only responsible for Lola and Alainn's lives.
I have texted a few people to see what the situation is with flu jabs and most have said that they get it but they aren't compelled to by their work. I think it would be a better idea to find out the reasons why people aren't getting the jab and see if there are ways of making it more appealing or getting more awareness out there. I was actually wondering if the NHS could afford to vaccinate everyone who worked with vulnerable people? There is surely no way they could afford to lose doctors and nurses through dismissal who refused to have the jab?
I have to say this thread has made me more paranoid about catching the flu. I wore my gloves the whole time I was at the doctors today. Do UK people on here get the vaccination even if they aren't in an "at risk" group?
I have to say this thread has made me more paranoid about catching the flu. I wore my gloves the whole time I was at the doctors today.
Do UK people on here get the vaccination even if they aren't in an "at risk" group?