Animal Rights Service animals

[CrazyCatLady]

I know many of us are against exploiting animals. But what are your thoughts on service animals? Like guide dogs for the blind? Xxx

 

[kibbleforlola]

I'm torn on the subject.

On the one hand, yes, you are using an animal for your own gain, and I feel that's wrong.

On the other, disabled people and their service animals can form deep, life long companionships. Also, rescue animals have been used for guide dogs, and that's one less animal on death row.

 

[mlp]

Same as Kibbleforlola, with the additional comment that some dogs really do thrive best with a *job*. My Gracie, for instance, would be happier with a relatively demanding job, I think, but she's stuck with me.

 

[Calliegirl]

Same here. I think some do enjoy the work, but I have seen some training that was abusive (hanging a small dog by the leash and choking him for not getting something right). Plus, a lot of the groups breed dogs and after training sell them for $5,000 to over $60,000, with the average $10,000 - $15,000. I don't believe it costs that much to train a dog and I think it's really just a business to them.

 

[Tom L.]

I really don't know that much about it. Someone in the building where I work has a guide dog but I can't say whether he loves his dog or how happy the dog is.

For myself.... I think if I went blind, the last thing I would want would be a dog, or any other animal. I have adopted animals needing homes in the past and really think both they and I benefitted from this, but... if I was incapacitated in some way- visually or otherwise- probably I'd have my hands full taking care of myself. The care of an animal would be another responsibility and get me stressed even more. How would I know if s/he was staying healthy day-to-day if I could not see?

Maybe some folks are different, and the bond with their service animal would be a sort of symbiosis.

 

[Alice-Bee]

Ive seen dogs who help the blind and disabled. They do incredible things and are rewarded with a loving family. I see nothing wrong in that, I dislike seeing police horses used in riots. That kind of animal service is wrong.

 

[CrazyCatLady]

I dislike seeing police horses used in riots. That kind of animal service is wrong.

and also seems unnecessary xxx

 

[SummerRain]

Since I don't believe in domesticating animals for our own benefit, in a perfect world I wouldn't have service animals either. However, in the here and now, things like guide dogs are really a non-issue in comparison to all the animal cruelty in the world. I agree that dogs are well suited to "jobs" and most dogs in service jobs are probably a lot more content than many pet dogs with little exercise and stimulation, and my understanding is most handlers and service animals have a really close and affectionate relationship which can only be good.

Sometimes service animals are required to be put in dangerous situations though, that can result in their lives being put at risk (i.e. in the army, in war, to some extent in the police, etc). I can't agree with that. We breed animals to be docile, dependent and to follow our orders willingly and happily, and then we ask them to risk their lives for our benefit because they're more expendable than people. I don't know how common death/injury is for those type of service animals mind you, I expect it's not so common, but I don't know.

ETA: Also, if rescue animals are used for service jobs that don't risk their lives, that's a great thing and I'd really support it.

 

[Ansciess]

I think they should not be used for that purpose, and the dogs often do not get their needs met. The dogs have lives worth living too, not just how they can serve humans. This is from another site:

Re. guide dogs. Posts 1 and 3:

http://www.animalsuffering.com/forum...p?t=7&start=75

My partner is blind, and we had a companion/guide dog trained at one of the better schools with us for eight years.

IMO, animal rights supporters -- and even animal welfare supporters -- should not accept guide dog programs as they are now run. Some blind people have good relationships with their dogs -- I think we did, because we treated her first as a companion, and then as a guide -- but guide dog programs are open to many abuses. Being blind does not make a person more aware, and some blind people treat dogs as no more than "animated canes". I've heard of people who leashed their dogs to a chair except when they were working them.

Because blind people (obviously) often can't give their dogs even the freedom to run, and play with other dogs, and be off-leash, that sighted "owners" can give their dogs, guides often live very stunted lives that are "all work and no play." They only have a working life of eight years or so, and then become "surplus", and have to be rehomed, losing their human companion. The training is rigid and difficult, and frustrates much of the dog's natural behavior, and emotional and behavioral needs. Guides are more intelligent and sensitive than most dogs, and so they suffer even more from the Gestapo-like obedience demanded of them.

Some schools like the one at San Rafael keep legal ownership of the dogs they place and have visits yearly to check up on them, but some schools sell the dogs to the blind person, and the dogs have no recourse if they are badly treated. I knew of one case where the blind person walked his guide on burning-hot pavement that blistered his paw-pads, kept the dog on a near-starvation diet, and only took the dog out once a day to go to the bathroom. Other blind people reported him, but the school did nothing, because the dog was "owned" by the blind person, not the school. The SPCA didn't do anything either. Welfare organizations are VERY reluctant to take a guide dog away from a "poor blind person" and be seen as insensitive to the needs of the disabled.

Blind people can use canes. My partner does now, after one experience with the whole guide dog thing. Guide dogs are slaves, even if well-treated ( and often they are not well treated ). Their lives are often barren and harsh. We humans have no more right to use dogs as slaves just because we are blind, than to use animals as research tools because we are sick, or use them as food because we like the taste of meat.

It wouldn't hurt to find out more about your guide dog program. I'm only familiar with the ones inthe United States, where there are 12 or 14 different ones, with varying standards. There is also, now, one school that trains miniature horses as guides. Since horses live so much longer than dogs, at least there don't have to be so many of them, and they can stay their human's whole lifetime.

Things that I think are important to find out:

Is the dog allowed any "down time" to just be a dog -- run, play, play with toys, socialize with humans and other animals, and so on? At the school we knew, the dogs weren't allowed to carry things in their mouths. Our dog was a Golden -- bred to carry things -- and she suffered cruelly. She took to sneaking tiny things, like a little leaf, into her mouth. It was a self-comforting gesture while she was under the strain of learning. When we got her home, we gave her toys to carry while "off-duty" and she stopped sneaking while "on-duty".

I, who am sighted, also took her for off-leash runs on the beach and hikes in the woods, and trips to the park for play-group with other dogs, but blind people can't let a dog off-leash in open areas, because they can't see what is happening to the dog, so the dog often doesn't get any free play-time.

Does the training allow for natural canine needs? At the school we knew, the dogs were trained to relieve on concrete. In vain, we said one can _always_ find a scrap of grass, even in the city. The school refused to bend on the issue. Our dog, who had been trained to go on grass, held her feces for FIVE DAYS in the dorm, and finally defecated on the dorm floor in desperation. The trainer told my partner to "discipline your dog". My partner refused. She had tried to sneak out of the dorm at 3 AM to find grass for the dog, and had been caught (being blind) and sent back to her room. Once she was home, the dog never was forced to defecate on concrete again. Even in the Tucson, Arizona airport, we found a little scrap of bare dirt for her.

Are there provisions for oversight of the dog's welfare, and can the school take the dog back if the dog is being abused, as in the case I mentioned above? Does the school give information on dog care, nutrition, and emotional needs? We've known of a guide who was fed "ad lib" by an overly "loving" owner, grew to over 100 pounds, and died of a heart-attack at age six. We've known of dogs fed sub-standard commercial diets which are mostly corn. In one case, a commercial food company donated their brand of food to the school, and in return the school told the human graduates that they MUST feed their guides that brand, even though we knew of several dogs with food allergies whose coats developed bald patches on the diet. Once they were changed to a different brand of food ( on our advise), the problem cleared up.

How are the dogs rehomed? It seems cruel to use a dog for seven years, then send the dog away. Many blind people are poor, and live in small flats, and have no room or money to keep several dogs.

What about the human/dog bond? We knew of one person who didn't want to give up her companion, kept the dog working into the dog's twelfth year, and was only persuaded to give up the dog when the dog (severely crippled by arthritis) fell while trying to climb into a bus and couldn't get up.

So, it is mostly a matter of common sense and common humanity.

Even if they don't object to guides on animal rights grounds, people need to think about the dog and his/her welfare and needs as much as the welfare and needs of the blind person.

 

[SummerRain]

^ That's interesting to read. I sort of assumed guide dogs would be treated well and trained compassionately. I guess, when you think about it, it's obviously that's not always going to be true.

 

[Muggle]

^ That's interesting to read. I sort of assumed guide dogs would be treated well and trained compassionately. I guess, when you think about it, it's obviously that's not always going to be true.

In the UK guide dogs are always owned by Guide Dogs for the Blind and they always do check ups and the dogs are protected by the Animal Welfare Act and will be remove from the person if they're found to have broken the law (and those examples in that article would all be against the law).

I'm on my phone so multi-quoting is impossible but I think somebody earlier posted to say that $10,000 was too much to train a dog. That's cheap! Each dog costs the Guide Dogs around £50,000 (about $77,500) for the duration of the dog's life and most of that goes on the training.

I have no issues with guide dogs for the blind, dogs for the disabled, hearing dogs for deaf people or hounds for heroes (they're all charities which train dogs as service dogs).
Drug sniffer dogs in airports/the police? Bit wary but as long as the dog is never put in harms way then I don't have much of an issue with it.

Police dogs, bomb sniffer dogs, police horses etc, any job where the animal is put into harms way I have major issues with.

 

[Ansciess]

In the UK guide dogs are always owned by Guide Dogs for the Blind and they always do check ups and the dogs are protected by the Animal Welfare Act and will be remove from the person if they're found to have broken the law (and those examples in that article would all be against the law).

Even if there isn't outright abuse, that doesn't eliminate the other issues, of the dogs getting their needs met.

Guide Dogs for the Blind seems to use primarily bred dogs
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...wer-telephones-undress-vulnerable-owners.html
Their mission is to help humans, by using animals. Your statement to me reads as the kind of blind trust for an organization that makes people think everything is fine and turn their heads. But every animal use industry tells you how well the animals are cared for.

According to Animal Aid UK
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/campaigns/experiments//281//
there are "concerns over how the dogs are used."

​

 

[Muggle]

Even if there isn't outright abuse, that doesn't eliminate the other issues, of the dogs getting their needs met.

Guide Dogs for the Blind seems to use primarily bred dogs
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...wer-telephones-undress-vulnerable-owners.html

Oh I know most of their puppies come from breeders. In fact, we got one of our puppies (she's long dead now) from a breeder who also breeds for Guide Dogs and Dogs for the Disabled.

Their mission is to help humans, by using animals. Your statement to me reads as the kind of blind trust for an organization that makes people think everything is fine and turn their heads. But every animal use industry tells you how well the animals are cared for.

Well no my statement probably reads as somebody who has wanted to work for the guide dogs/dogs for the disabled my whole life and what I currently do is all done with that goal in mind.

According to Animal Aid UK
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/campaigns/experiments//281//
there are "concerns over how the dogs are used."

Well they would saying that seeing as they're an AR organisation (and lols at you saying I have blind trust in an organisation and you're just doing the same with Animal Aid) as any AR organisation is going to be against service dogs.

 

[Dedalus]

I'm fascinated by service dogs - they do some amazing things. Although my only personal encounter with one was a blind lady who frequented the store where I worked. It was a food store and that dog was keenly on the lookout not only for his companion - but for an easy snack. I saw him swipe a bagel right out of the one of the store managers hands (who was eating the bagel while walking around the store). It was a stealthy move - the manager barely knew what happened. That, and other incidents led me to wonder if that dog was getting enough to eat...

 

[Muggle]

If a dog thinks it can get away will swiping food, it will

 

[ledboots]

A girl at my son's martial arts class is training a service dog. She's a beautiful weimeraner (sp) but she likes me for some reason. When I go in, she sneaks out of her bed and comes over to me! Her trainer says she only does it with me. I have never pet her or even talked to her (because of the sign). It is probably that my purse smells like food.

 

[Pirate]

I'm also torn.
I hate the idea of an animal being used to service humans. A dog should be allowed to be a dog, not constantly working. However, I am not disabled. I feel that it is all too easy to make a judgment when it is not you who benefits. I know that people's lives are completely transformed by them.

 

[Ansciess]

I'm also torn.
I hate the idea of an animal being used to service humans. A dog should be allowed to be a dog, not constantly working. However, I am not disabled. I feel that it is all too easy to make a judgment when it is not you who benefits.

It still doesn't give someone the right to use another creature as a tool. People feel they benefit from all kinds of uses of animals - but the animal still has a reason for existing other than to service some human.

 

[Alice-Bee]

I agree that animals exsist for their own reasons however I see a difference in a Human using a cow for its milk or meat and using a domesticed dog for aiding a disabled person. Mostly a service dog becomes part of that family and are loved just as much if not more than any other housepet.

 

[RabbitLuvr]

When I bought my house, the inspector did the termite check with a dog. I thought it was really cool at the time, and the dog seemed happy and healthy. The handler was petting the dog before and after the inspection (they were there for about thirty minutes total), and I was allowed to pet her after the termite inspection was done.

I'm more ambivalent about it now, I guess, though not terribly bothered.