Returning to the online veg community because I'm trying to go vegan!

Yes. Cows aren't bred and eventually killed for the purpose of producing rennet- demand for their milk or flesh is the main thing that drives the industry.
Fair point, and I agree. But that is not necessarily the way all vegetarians think about these issues. For example, there is the question of whether a product could have been produced without cruelty or not. They might focus more on their own practice and the world they want to create. They might argue that it's theoretically possible to produce the milk itself without cruelty, or at least with no more than an acceptable degree of cruelty, as in the case of the ISKCON farms, whereas producing rennet necessarily means an animal has to be slaughtered.
 
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Rennet is basically minced calf stomachs - that is the "natural" ingredient that was used for hundreds of years to produce cheese.

Yes, cows are not killed for rennet alone.
Cows are also not killed for milk alone.
People with leather sofas will tell you that vows are not killed for leather alone, either.
And I am sure there will be also people who argue that cows are not killed for meat alone.

It is the sum of all these "components" of the cow that makes killing cows a viable business.
 
Rennet is basically minced calf stomachs - that is the "natural" ingredient that was used for hundreds of years to produce cheese.

Yes, cows are not killed for rennet alone.
Cows are also not killed for milk alone.
People with leather sofas will tell you that vows are not killed for leather alone, either.
And I am sure there will be also people who argue that cows are not killed for meat alone.

It is the sum of all these "components" of the cow that makes killing cows a viable business.

This was basically my thinking, that cows are not killed exclusively for rennet. This is probably true. I also believed in the second line that you have there, that cows are not killed for the dairy industry alone. I no longer believe that.

I took a MOOC (Massive Open Online Course) offered by the University of Edinburgh through Coursera on Animal Behavior and Welfare. The course deliberately did not delve into animal ethics--whether it is right or wrong to use animals for meat, dairy, eggs, etc., keep them in zoos, or keep them as pets. The main concern of their field is to study the welfare of animals, basically trying to improve the quality of life for animals at each stage of the process. It was supremely scientific. Anyway, of course there was one unit on farm animals. They discussed the "production cycles" of dairy cows, egg-laying hens, broiler chickens, sheep raised for meat, and even salmon. Based on the narrative they presented, it seems like slaughter is an inherent part of any animal agriculture, necessary to the profitability of the enterprise. For example, with male calves of dairy cows, if the price of beef is very low, the farmer might just shoot the calf instead of sending to to slaughter to be used as veal.

I know that this is not really your point. Your point is that the slaughter industry is an integrated whole, and the use of a particular animal for one thing makes it more "logical" to use that animal for other things. Still, before this lesson about production cycles, I did not realize how integral killing animals is to every branch of animal agriculture. Of course, I had been told vaguely about it on forums like this one, but the ethical viewpoint and general vagueness of the information made me doubt it's complete veracity. Now I know that even on the nicest family farms, organic farms, "free-range" egg farms, killing animals is a way of life. There was also a very matter-of-fact presentation of how animals are transported to slaughterhouses and the process within slaughterhouses. The basic and factual presentation, even without any images of blood and gore, was more disturbing to me than any PETA video I'd ever seen. They were even focusing on the best practices in slaughter and EU regulations that are meant to improve animal welfare. Maybe because I was always suspicious of videos that were blatantly trying to convince me, but also that were trying to show the worst of the worst--employees the animals, etc.. This is why I decided to vegan.

Now, what would happen if the whole world was lacto-ovo vegetarian but didn't eat any direct products of slaughter? I don't know. This seems like an absurd hypothetical of the type that we veggies hate. I imagine that as long as it's profitable, animals will be killed for whatever people will buy, even if most or all of the body is wasted. Besides, we keep breeding our companion animals who will eat whatever low-quality meat the industry produces.
 
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There is actually slaughter free milk, but I doubt it would be enough to meet the demands of everyone. :/ What if everyone was lacto-ovo vegetarian only ate slaughter free dairy and eggs? It doesn't sound very sustainable. It's just easier to not eat milk or eggs.
Any companion animal that can eat vegan should.
 
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What if everyone was lacto-ovo vegetarian only ate slaughter free dairy and eggs?
(bold emphasis mine) The consumption if dairy and egg would be only the smallest fraction of what it is now, that's for sure... The production of them would be way down, and what little was available for purchase would be as expensive as all get-out, what with providing for the cost of care for all those retired cows and chickens.
 
Day #1 = success! I didn't have any cheese, eggs, or honey! (I hesitate to say that I ate completely vegan because of sugar and wine which I did not vet for vegan purity, but I'll worry about this once my cheese addiction is broken).

I made a bunch of peanut butter oatmeal cookies to munch on, and this was a great decision. They are delicious, fatty, and satiating!
 
Day #1 = success! I didn't have any cheese, eggs, or honey! (I hesitate to say that I ate completely vegan because of sugar and wine which I did not vet for vegan purity, but I'll worry about this once my cheese addiction is broken).
I wouldn't worry about that too much. If you see the vegan police heading your way don't panic, they stop often to judge other veg*ns so they're easy to outrun. :p
 
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Just throwing this out there -

Very few cheeses are made with the traditional animal based rennet anymore (at least in the US). The majority of cheese producers now use fermentation-produced chymosin (FPC) instead. It's a more economical, more readily available, and a purer product (when compared to animal based rennet). With it they have higher production yields, better curd texture and reduced bitterness.


In 1999, about 60% of US hard cheese was made with FPC and it has up to 80% of the global market share for rennet. By 2008, approximately 80% to 90% of commercially made cheeses in the US and Britain were made using FPC.
source: Chymosin - GMO Database
 
Dropkick, interesting. However, please note that some cheeses require animal-based rennet.
E.G., Parmesan cheese is only allowed (by law) to be called Parmesan Cheese if it is made with animal-derived rennet.
Luckily, there is now a vegan version available that manages to duplicate its awful stinkiness and horrible taste.

Some time ago, I stumbled upon the vegetarian society's "Say Cheese" campaign, which stroke me as an incredibly misguided single-issue campaign, as - at the time - it did not offer a single vegan option and only was targeted at getting vegetarians to swap Parmesan with animal-derived rennet with some other dairy cheese.

On the other hand, it was shamelessly glorifying the perceived deliciousness of dairy cheese as if being vegetarian was the hallmark of being animal friendly (erm, they ought to know better, in 2013).

Cheesy, to say the least (and unlike the vegetarian society, I do not use this as a positive attribute).

That, btw, is what I like about the German VEBU ("Vegetarierbund", "Vegetarian's association"), which was also founded as a vegetarian association about 120 years ago, but would NEVER put any recipe with dairy and eggs on their website or publications nowadays. All its spokespersons nowadays are also vegans, even if the members are not (yet).

Best regards,
Andy
 
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Good to hear you are doing it, Dormouse!
Keep up the stamina and the conviction!

Best regards,
Andy
 
This was basically my thinking, that cows are not killed exclusively for rennet. This is probably true. I also believed in the second line that you have there, that cows are not killed for the dairy industry alone. I no longer believe that.

Are you finding that you can now see through bollox more clearly simply 'cos you no longer need to see what is clearly bollox as truth?

I'm asking simply 'cos it looks that way from here.
 
Day 2 without cheese accomplished!

Are you finding that you can now see through bollox more clearly simply 'cos you no longer need to see what is clearly bollox as truth?

I'm asking simply 'cos it looks that way from here.
The causation goes the opposite direction. I learned a lot about the processes of animal agriculture and then decided to go vegan.
 
Day 3 down! I rewarded myself with a trip out to a local mostly-vegan restaurant for some delicious farro risotto. It satisfied my craving for creaminess and was a real treat!

Yay dormouse, way to go! Make sure you eat enough so you don't get hungry and crave the cheese
:)

Oh yes, I'm eating lots. Probably too much. I'll be more mindful about over-eating after a month or so, when the cheese habit is broken.