Let's Make Veganism Less Strict

[g0rph]

I think you make good points here. When we have a pet animal we love, we may see that eating animals is eating something you love.

Exactly. "Out of sight, out of mind"

Something else I'll raise is that what is domesticated is not necessarily treated well.

That's where laws need to come in and be functional.

We already see this with humans, and humans we live with are in theory meant to be those we love, but the statistics on domestic violence or intimate partner violence make you wonder what the solution is.

There is no solution that will stop it 100%, but the key is education.
I've said it before (although possibly not here)...Teaching is the single most important profession there is. Bar none. Not doctors, nurses, police, fire-service. Definitely not politicians. Absofuckinglutely not CEOs of companies whose sole purpose is to make money for stock holders.

Is it more people living by themselves?

No. That leads to loneliness and bitterness. Which can lead to anger and resentment. Which can lead to even more potent violence.
Humans (and other animals) need connections to stay sane.
.Just look at the state of the INCEL movement for one prime example.

I don't know if you're single, and this is just of course, anecdotal and not really evidence, but I myself have been angry, upset, fuming...and the simple touch of my partner, or a hand on the shoulder with a calming word from a friend, or a hug from a family member or friend can reduce that building anger to a buzz rather than a roar. We need companionship...100%

We do see a correlation that shows that as incomes rise, single person households rise suggesting that if given the power to people will distance themselves from others perhaps to avoid conflict or aggression.

Can you give a source for this assertion?

So closeness or proximity can create emotional connection but can also facilitate abuse or exploitation.

We are (and always will be) flawed.

Total control over another sentient being can lead to huge harm, whether the animal is a dog, a cow, or a human in an unequal relationship.

See laws...correctly administered.

 

[Tom L.]

Posters in this thread are having a truly impressive, in-depth, philosophical and practical discussion.

 

[Jenny3315]

I know that this thread was started over 5 years ago but I just read through the entire thing as this is a topic that has been on my mind as I transition into being vegan. I just wanted to say I respect all of the thought those involved have put into their answers and I respect you all for your dedication to helping animals.

 

[allindogecoin]

We already see this with humans, and humans we live with are in theory meant to be those we love, but the statistics on domestic violence or intimate partner violence make you wonder what the solution is.

There is no solution that will stop it 100%, but the key is education.
I've said it before (although possibly not here)...Teaching is the single most important profession there is. Bar none. Not doctors, nurses, police, fire-service. Definitely not politicians. Absofuckinglutely not CEOs of companies whose sole purpose is to make money for stock holders.

I think education can help reduce intimate partner violence but I suspect it occurs because female education increases a woman's income, wealth, independence, and autonomy. So it is based on female empowerment. The ability to distance oneself provides the ability to protect oneself.

We do see a correlation that shows that as incomes rise, single person households rise suggesting that if given the power to people will distance themselves from others perhaps to avoid conflict or aggression.

Can you give a source for this assertion?

See below for the data on household type:

Household composition by type

An interactive visualization from Our World in Data.

ourworldindata.org

The data can be downloaded and it shows that many low-income countries (Liberia, Burundi, Ethiopia, Afghanistan) mostly sit under 15% one-person households, several under 5%. High-income countries tend to have more one-person households e.g. Norway 39.6%, Finland 41.0%, Germany 37.3%, Switzerland 36.0%, Austria 36.3%.

When I run this data against income data, I get correlation coefficient r = 0.7 so that is a strong correlation. Of course, correlation does not imply causation, so keep that in mind. Also there are outliers e.g. Singapore is rich (~USD 47k) but has a low one-person share (16%) but nevertheless there is a correlation.

Humans (and other animals) need connections to stay sane.
.Just look at the state of the INCEL movement for one prime example.

I don't know if you're single, and this is just of course, anecdotal and not really evidence, but I myself have been angry, upset, fuming...and the simple touch of my partner, or a hand on the shoulder with a calming word from a friend, or a hug from a family member or friend can reduce that building anger to a buzz rather than a roar. We need companionship...100%

The incel movement is definitely negative and scary. I hope you are not suggesting the solution to the incel problem is that incels need love. Maybe providing more love to incels might work, but when I think through the implications of that, it doesn't sit well with me.

I am indeed single and childless, but if I had a daughter, I would not like the idea of raising her to love an incel so that the incel can be tamed. I'd rather teach my hypothetical daughter to be independent, to focus on career and education (as you mention), build autonomy and financial independence, etc so that if she does choose to love others, it is from a position of independence and free choice.

 

[g0rph]

The incel movement is definitely negative and scary. I hope you are not suggesting the solution to the incel problem is that incels need love. Maybe providing more love to incels might work, but when I think through the implications of that, it doesn't sit well with me.

No.
I am saying that lack of closeness, affection etc is what causes people to get that way. It's borne of frustration and jealousy and fueled even more by social media...ever seen anyone post about their arguments or bad times in general? No. It's happy beach scenes, parties and fun.

I am indeed single and childless, but if I had a daughter, I would not like the idea of raising her to love an incel so that the incel can be tamed. I'd rather teach my hypothetical daughter to be independent, to focus on career and education (as you mention), build autonomy and financial independence, etc so that if she does choose to love others, it is from a position of independence and free choice.

Incel itself simply means involuntary celibate.
People who could be described that way are not necessarily all misogynistic arsehats.
And absolutely nobody said you should guide her to love one of those people!