Is this site as toxic as r/vegan?

[Lou]

Well, it's a slippery slope.
I think I recall you are reluctant to call yourself vegan because of your Vitamin D supplement.
I kind of think that is sort of sad. You are certainly vegan. How is being 98% vegan - not vegan enough.
I think people should be considered and consider themselves vegan if they are 98% vegan. But what about 97% or then if 97% is ok, what about 94%. *
I too call myself mostly vegan. About two years ago I made the decision not to worry about the details. The details were driving me crazy.

There is some areas that can drive any informed vegan a little nuts. The cultivation of Almonds and avocados harm bees. Palm oil cultivation harms orangutans. Non organic produce is bad for almost all living things.

This is where I fall back to the individuals intent and the vegan's society clause on "practical and possible". And since I'm not sure I meet the practical and possible requirement all the time then there is the mostly adjective to bail me out.

But you know, now that I am thinking about it. maybe that is not fair either. is vegan a binary state. like can you be mostly pregnant? Well... you can be almost dead.

Then again, I'm pretty sure it impossible to be IRL 100% vegan except in your intent. So full circle: its all about intent.


*How would you even calculate that. Dollars spent? calories consumed? Items in your frig?

 

[Mufflon]

The "you are not vegan enough" discussions I roll my eyes at (talking about German speaking boards here) are usually about stuff that goes beyond not eating/consuming animal products, e. g. you are not vegan enough if you...

- are buying vegan foods/products produced by "evil companies".

- are committing environmental crimes like owning an SUV or buying food wrapped in plastic.

- aren't holding certain political/cultural views.

Sometimes I feel that some vegans need to get a grip on the fact that "being vegan" doesn't mean being a member of an elitist holier-than-thou club. The more coming veganism gets, the more heterogenous the vegan crowd becomes. That seems to be something though some vegans aren't really willing to accept.

 

[Chryssie]

I do not call myself vegan because I will eat cheese when I go out to eat and I don't always check all ingredients in products. I do my best and I think that is all one can expect of others.

 

[Calliegirl]

I think things like expecting people not to shop at places that sell nonvegan items or from companies that also sell nonvegan items is ridiculous. When it comes to actually eating, knowingly eating animal products, I think it's pretty cut and dry, purposely eating animal products excluding meat = vegetarian.
I've seen someone brag about being vegan, and that they only eat steak a few times a year on special occasions. They may be eating plant based most of the year, but they are in no way vegan.

 

[Veggyolky]

Holy crap! they lived such a small fraction of their natural life expectancy, that's so terrible, people speak with a tragic tone when they talk about "dying young," but this sentiment isnt applied to animals.
Dont worry, I'm sure schools will catch onto the idea very soon, and encourage plant based eating. The next generation will probably be at least half vegan. That's something to hope for

Yeah i know right! I found out about this evil thing a year ago, scrolling through facebook, and ever since i cant help but feel angry (more angry) about ppl who eat meat..... Im not hateful towards them or shame them. I just feel so sad that they dont feel anything knowing this!

 

[Second Summer]

Regarding the 'not vegan enough' discussion: Over the years I've become a lot more relaxed about it. I don't care all that much whether someone insist that they are vegan when they are clearly not so, at least not by my own standards (which I feel are quite generous). What I do care about is the definition of a vegan product. As long as we can mostly agree about that, then I'm happy. I have my own standards, others have theirs, none of us live perfect vegan lives. It's fine.

I also keep comparing vegans to Christians and other major religious groups. When I see how some of the supposed followers of Christ or The Prophet or even Buddha conduct themselves and still get to keep their membership cards, then I think: Assuming we want veganism to be successful and go properly mainstream, then maybe we vegans should also allow ourselves to be a little bit more accepting of who is good enough to be members of our club?

 

[Brian W]

I had a big bust up with the vegan community on LinkedIn over somebody glorying in the gruesome death of a hunter who was hunting wild boar for food and got mauled to death. Extremes are not usually the ends of a line but next to each other on a circle. I don't identify as a vegan because I have no wish to be associated with the toxic vegan community. This forum is not perfect by any means and we have to put up with other people's opinions even if they don't appear realistic to us but isn't that life? There are a lot of very good people here. I have come back after a long break and a lot of soul searching and I hope I am now a changed, stronger, more tolerant person who has finally grown out of stomping his feet and has finally become a reasonable example of what a caring Christian ought to be.

 

[digitarian]

I had a big bust up with the vegan community on LinkedIn over somebody glorying in the gruesome death of a hunter who was hunting wild boar for food and got mauled to death. Extremes are not usually the ends of a line but next to each other on a circle. I don't identify as a vegan because I have no wish to be associated with the toxic vegan community. This forum is not perfect by any means and we have to put up with other people's opinions even if they don't appear realistic to us but isn't that life? There are a lot of very good people here. I have come back after a long break and a lot of soul searching and I hope I am now a changed, stronger, more tolerant person who has finally grown out of stomping his feet and has finally become a reasonable example of what a caring Christian ought to be.

I've seen an entire tab of a website showing all the hunters killed by hunting. Well I hope a few people don't spoil veganism for you, as veganism's for everyone and about saving animals - so if anyone, it's for them. I personally think it's ironic when the hunter becomes the hunted - which is funny, gruesome, and sensational that I could imagine people discussing and glorifying. Do I glorify it? No - it just seems to prove the point that hunting is pointless and dangerous - because if we, human beings - the supposed 'superior' beings, can be destroyed by it, then other lifeforms would too.

I personally feel that even though it might have bad characters - the fact that this is a vegan forum at least helps it stay on topic to see what people truly think about veganism. It just gives it an extra chance that others may not have, simply because they allow everyone in, which gives non-vegan trolls platforms to get their energy out on.

 

[majorbloodnok]

There are worst, more toxic vegan reddit out there, and r/vegan is a place to unwind, vent and be uplifted, but the culture there can massively leak into real life (like all of reddit) and can negatively affect vegan advocacy. It promotes things like shaming carnists, despite the fact that carnism is a huge thing and individuals should not get all of the blame, and other issues like comparing racism to carnism, which is sort of valid in a way but carnists would view this as a no go area. Is veganforum like r/vegan? From what I have seen not really, but I want other people's knowledge of this site.

Well I've been on this forum for long enough now to give a considered opinion. I certainly wouldn't label myself as a carnist but I am a meat-eater and yet the attitude I've met has been very much one of engagement, discussion and respectfulness.

That's not to say my choices have simply been accepted here - I wouldn't expect that - but neither have I been dismissed out of hand. In short, a welcome far far better than I envisaged.

 

[danceswithcats]

I had a big bust up with the vegan community on LinkedIn over somebody glorying in the gruesome death of a hunter who was hunting wild boar for food and got mauled to death. Extremes are not usually the ends of a line but next to each other on a circle. I don't identify as a vegan because I have no wish to be associated with the toxic vegan community. This forum is not perfect by any means and we have to put up with other people's opinions even if they don't appear realistic to us but isn't that life? There are a lot of very good people here. I have come back after a long break and a lot of soul searching and I hope I am now a changed, stronger, more tolerant person who has finally grown out of stomping his feet and has finally become a reasonable example of what a caring Christian ought to be.

Christianity is the underlying reason for my veganism (and politics - climate, economic justice, anti-war) as well. I try to be a "Be like Jesus" Christian, and ignore the power structures, but seeing people acknowledge their faith publicly - be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other - always gives me a little thrill of hope, so thank you for that, @Brian W .

 

[Brian W]

Christianity is the underlying reason for my veganism (and politics - climate, economic justice, anti-war) as well. I try to be a "Be like Jesus" Christian, and ignore the power structures, but seeing people acknowledge their faith publicly - be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other - always gives me a little thrill of hope, so thank you for that, @Brian W .

Christianity wasn't originally my underlying reason but it has since become a strong motivator.

 

[Hashtag_Eevee]

Well I've been on this forum for long enough now to give a considered opinion. I certainly wouldn't label myself as a carnist but I am a meat-eater and yet the attitude I've met has been very much one of engagement, discussion and respectfulness.

That's not to say my choices have simply been accepted here - I wouldn't expect that - but neither have I been dismissed out of hand. In short, a welcome far far better than I envisaged.

How can you be a meat eater but not a carnist? Not attacking just confused.

 

[majorbloodnok]

How can you be a meat eater but not a carnist? Not attacking just confused.

And not taken as an attack in the slightest.

I've said elsewhere that I'm not (and why I'm not) going to be expressing my point of view regarding meat eating, so my answer to your question will necessarily be brief and incomplete. However, all definitions of the label "carnist" I have come across have involved something else as well as just eating meat. As soon as one comes across a label that tries to combine multiple strands, it narrows the target substantially, and anyone who feels they don't meet ALL the criteria will object to being shoehorned into a pigeon-hole that they feel isn't accurate.

Hopefully that explanation will do, but I'm afraid I won't be going further into it than that.

 

[Hashtag_Eevee]

And not taken as an attack in the slightest.

I've said elsewhere that I'm not (and why I'm not) going to be expressing my point of view regarding meat eating, so my answer to your question will necessarily be brief and incomplete. However, all definitions of the label "carnist" I have come across have involved something else as well as just eating meat. As soon as one comes across a label that tries to combine multiple strands, it narrows the target substantially, and anyone who feels they don't meet ALL the criteria will object to being shoehorned into a pigeon-hole that they feel isn't accurate.

Hopefully that explanation will do, but I'm afraid I won't be going further into it than that.

So you are like someone with a rare genetic disease, or has little acces to food or something? That is the only way that would make sense in my mind.

 

[Second Summer]

So you are like someone with a rare genetic disease, or has little acces to food or something? That is the only way that would make sense in my mind.

I suspect further discussion on this is not going to be productive. Arguments in favour of meat eating are generally not what VF is intended for, and might have adverse outcomes for the proponent's continued membership! (See rule #1.)

So, I suggest we just move on and cross fingers that we can support any meat eater - carnist or not - on a journey towards a more plant based / vegan, healthier and more sustainable lifestyle.

 

[silva]

So you are like someone with a rare genetic disease, or has little acces to food or something? That is the only way that would make sense in my mind.

The word "carnist" has connotations of ignorance and hubris. I see nothing productive in lumping everyone who still eats meat, or wears leather, in the same catagory.
There is a real movement now in reducing meat consumption, being conscious about what products you use, eating plant based for health and environmental reasons. The vast majority still have meat, still see animals as food whether they feel it should be limited and differently sourced really is for them to figure out. In the meantime, reducing people mindset of needing meat everyday, of seeing plant only diets as normal options, is far better then judging them as the enemy
There are far far too many things wrong with this world to put all the attention on one absolute

 

[majorbloodnok]

I suspect further discussion on this is not going to be productive. Arguments in favour of meat eating are generally not what VF is intended for, and might have adverse outcomes for the proponent's continued membership! (See rule #1.)

No need to worry on my behalf, @Indian Summer; I’d already said I’d gone as far as I was prepared to, so if that leaves @Hashtag_Eevee with questions still then I’m afraid I’ll have to apologetically disappoint.

 

[ewomack]

On the subject of toxicity: I haven't posted very much here, but so far it seems like a pretty understanding place. I'm a flexitarian, as noted, but I only eat meat maybe 4 to 5 times a year and that seems to be decreasing as time goes on. Usually, it's at infrequent family gatherings, as I come from a long line of carnivores. No one openly shames me or makes a big fuss over my eating preferences, but it's pretty obvious that they don't "get it," either. Overall, I tolerate meat eating and try to live by example rather than by preaching. Preaching always seems to backfire. Instead, when my cholesterol once came back at 120 I just let everyone know. Most of the meat eaters were shocked. I didn't rub it in people's faces, I just said it. They know I eat almost no meat. I will let them make the inference, which will probably lead to a change in their actions faster than me shaming or blaming them. People born into meat-eating families have a hard time breaking that habit. It took me while, and a group of vegetarian friends, to get there. It just takes understanding and patience. And I don't expect everyone I meet to become vegan, either, nor will I try to persuade them. I'd rather live by example and let people decide for themselves. I hope this place stays at a low toxicity level.

 

[majorbloodnok]

...
Overall, I tolerate meat eating and try to live by example rather than by preaching. Preaching always seems to backfire.
...

I could not agree more.

Show me what walking the walk looks like and I’ll take notice. Tell me what I’m doing wrong and I might as well be ignoring yet another street evangelist or pushy salesperson.

 

[silva]

I could not agree more.

Show me what walking the walk looks like and I’ll take notice. Tell me what I’m doing wrong and I might as well be ignoring yet another street evangelist or pushy salesperson.

While I agree, I also very much understand the feeling of many vegans, and all the comparisons to other fights for rights.
I became far more pragmatic and flexible as I've aged. I don't find anyone much surprised by what goes on in animal farming, but more that they don't know what they can do, or worried about failing. Why more and more I want plant based diets mainstreamed more than meat eating demonized