Immigration

Second Summer

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Reaction score
8,633
Location
Oxfordshire, UK
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
What is the best approach to immigration for a host country? Do you know of examples of countries that handle immigration well?

Is immigration into developed, well-off nations such as US, UK, Australia, New Zealand an undisputed good?

Are we morally obligated to receive all the tired, poor, huddled masses who want to leave their current homelands?
 
This was posted in the Trumpocalypse thread, I thought it might be better in a new thread:

Having a system where illegal immigrants are tolerated/accepted and ultimately given amnesty is not the best approach in my view. Such a system is what promoted the migrations across Europe, which caused disruption and hardship for the migrants themselves, and to a lesser extent legal residents of the countries. Such a system also creates a world in which sex trafficking is much easier, criminals offering passage to migrants in generals becomes more profitable, and those boats that sink in the mediterranean killing people also become more common. And perhaps in the US more people will die trying to cross deserts in the border area in summer. That is what happens in the Chile/Peru/Bolivia desert border area.

Also, rewarding illegal immigration is fundamentally unfair. If you apply to your local consulate/embassy for a visa/asylum but are rejected then hear of your friend illegally immigrating to the US and making a successful life there, you might feel a great sense of injustice.

So I am in favour of illegal immigrants being found and sent home, in general, and I think money should be spent on this. And I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with going to work places or maybe even knocking on doors or stopping people on the street and asking for documentation. Although this is debatable and is a grey area that needs to be done with tremendous care and courtesy especially as it becomes a danger of racial profiling.

I am not in favour of throwing out every illegal immigrant of course not, I think it depends on the case. If someone came to the US at the age of 3 and is now 25 then I think most people would agree that it wouldn't be fair to deport them. That being said, I don't think coming to the US as a child or baby or even being born there should make someone a citizen automatically either, in other words if a couple crosses the border and has a baby born the day after, inside the US, and then are caught a few months or a year later, then they should probably still all leave. But by the time the child has lived there a certain amount of years it becomes too cruel to deport them, and a better route would be allow them all to become legal somehow.

Of course this needs to be done in combination with an increase in immigrants being accepted via legal applications made from either their home country or a third country, and by having a system that doesn't drown people in paperwork. It also needs to be done in combination with more money spent on border police to make it harder for people to get in.

And with allowances made for people that genuinely were seeking persecution or fleeing from something terrible and had little choice. For example if someone was known to be a target for drug cartels in Mexico because they were a journalist that had published certain things, you might treat them more favourably if they took a quick, illegal route to the US.

Where illegal immigrants are caught and allowed to stay this should be done in such a way that they get a worse deal than people who applied legally in the first place, for example they have to pay a fine or triple the visa fee or a higher taxation or aren't allowed certain benefits for a a period of time. Otherwise, it's just not fair. And blanket amnesties from time to time is great news for the people making money from people trafficking.

Of course, the problem with a Trump administration, in my view, is not that they want to deport illegal immigrants (which is fair enough, they are breaking the law) but the fear that they will do it in a crass way, that they won't do it with due care for vulnerable illegal immigrants, and that this will (and yes, already has) spilled over into bad treatments of legal immigrants by Trump supporters.

But none of that changes my main arguments here.

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong, would be interested to hear what others think.

I do believe in open borders eventually, but I don't think we are there yet, but I think it should be an long-term goal.
 
I think we have to keep in mind that the term "illegal immigrant" is often also very quickly applied to a person applying for asylum.

Asylum is (or used to be) the legal concept that people who were persecuted in their own home countries should be protected by another country's sovereign authority according to wikipedia. This also applies to refugees from wars.

Yes, a huge number of people who do apply for asylum in Europe or the US are decided not to legally qualify because they are not truly persecuted, because they came via a so-called safe state or for other reasons, still, in a country of laws, there has to be a legal procedure and a court of law typically has to decide on every specific case. That there are now increasing populist demands to dismantle this legal protection and process is, in my eyes, very troubling.
 
This was posted in the Trumpocalypse thread, I thought it might be better in a new thread:

Excellent post.

The western world is overwhelmed by all sorts of immigrants. We often forget that it is criminals who profit by smuggling people who are promised a better life. Many of them end up drowning.

It would seem that the majority of them who arrive on the European coasts are sent back. It must be a difficult task for government's to make the choice of sending them back or accepting asylum as most of them have no documents.

I often ask myself why don't the richer countries such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar and South Africa not take in immigrants.
It is a global problem and yet European countries often get blamed for this crisis.

More refugees are dying trying to reach Europe than ever before
 
Hilary Clinton recently was recently interviewed, as a representative of the political centre, about the problem of right-wing populism gaining serious ground in Europe. Her solution was basically to stop providing refuge to asylum seekers. See the Guardian article Hillary Clinton: Europe must curb immigration to stop rightwing populists

Here are a couple of quotes from a response by associate professor of sociology Hannah Jones:
The received wisdom among most civil servants, politicians and think tanks was you could never win the electorate round to liking migration with facts. The way to win votes, therefore, was to continue to emphasise how tough a particular politician would be in controlling migration.

[Hillary Clinton's] call both forgets the context in which the UN Convention was created, and does the opposite of what it promises. Rather than heading off far-right, anti-migrant rhetoric, it gives this rhetoric legitimacy.
More:
Hillary Clinton's centrist remedy to stop right-wing populists apes their own anti-migration rhetoric (10. Dec. 2018)

But Jones' response appears somewhat lacking in proposing any actual, practical solutions.