Question How Vegans Think

[Jamie in Chile]

I am considering becoming vegan as I mentioned in the other thread. Thanks for those who commented there. I want to start a new thread as I'm curious to find a bit more about how vegans think and whether I would fit into such a community.

I can't find any stats, but I get the sense that to be vegan is to have a strong ethical belief, whereas to be vegetarian or pescatarian is perhaps more likely based on health, taste or other preferences. Do you think that's true and is anyone willing to share a personal perspective?

If you feel strongly about this, shouldn't vegans be active in trying to convince the world? If you feel a strong moral imperative to eat animals, does it not logically follow that you should try and convince others? Do you try to avoid the subject at the dinner table, or do you like to bring it up?

A few other questions that don't really matter much in practice, but I am kind of curious about:

If synthetic, non-plant based foods are created in the future and assuming widely available at similar cost and taste to existing foods, would it become morally wrong to eat plants?

If you think it's morally wrong to eat meat, what about leftovers from someone else's plate that are going in the bin anyway? Seems to be OK to me?

Another win is if I happened to be out driving and come across a dead animal just hit by another car, would it be morally wrong to eat it?

Do you think if I decide to go 95% vegan but make some exceptions (eat a pizza with regular cheese when I feel like it, eat my kids's leftover chicken nugget, take the odd piece of meat at a family event so the host doesn't feel bad etc) do you think I would be welcomed onto the main vegan forum on here, and vegan communities in real life. Or is it a bit of an all or nothing thing? Could I consider myself a vegan if I did that?

 

[Andy_T]

Hi Jamie,

let me try to address some of your questions with my personal thoughts on the matter.

If you feel strongly about this, shouldn't vegans be active in trying to convince the world? If you feel a strong moral imperative to eat animals, does it not logically follow that you should try and convince others? Do you try to avoid the subject at the dinner table, or do you like to bring it up?

That is a matter of personal preference.

Sure, most would love to have meat eaters join them.
However, my impression is that it is not easy to convince meat-eaters (unless they want to try it out themselves) as being a vegan in todays world is well out of the ordinary.

So with a rather low probability of success (and the risk of being perceived as the so-called "preaching vegan" that EVERY omnivore out there claims to observe all the time - but which I have personally not observed yet ) most vegans I know choose in their personal life not to try to convince others. ESPECIALLY not at the dinner table! This is actually the worst place to discuss the subject. Either you agree with everything an omnivore says, or you disagree and then get accused of deliberately trying to "ruin their lunch".
Really, if somebody asks me some of these questions over lunch, I normally ask him to wait a bit until we are done eating, and, if s/he is still interested, then I address the questions.

If synthetic, non-plant based foods are created in the future and assuming widely available at similar cost and taste to existing foods, would it become morally wrong to eat plants?

Why would it become morally wrong to eat plants?
It might become less morally wrong to eat non-plant-derived food if there really was such a thing (e.g. meat grown from cloned cells), but it would still take much more energy (and money) to create that kind of food.

If you think it's morally wrong to eat meat, what about leftovers from someone else's plate that are going in the bin anyway? Seems to be OK to me?

Another win is if I happened to be out driving and come across a dead animal just hit by another car, would it be morally wrong to eat it?

Those are valid questions, and basically the same answer applies... in theory, if you find an animal that is already dead, why not eat it? Possible, but I must say that I personally do not consider the carcasses of animals to be food, and they do gross me out personally.

Do you think if I decide to go 95% vegan but make some exceptions (eat a pizza with regular cheese when I feel like it, eat my kids's leftover chicken nugget, take the odd piece of meat at a family event so the host doesn't feel bad etc) do you think I would be welcomed onto the main vegan forum on here, and vegan communities in real life. Or is it a bit of an all or nothing thing? Could I consider myself a vegan if I did that?

I think it would be great if you did that, but I still think you should rather not call yourself vegan then.

The word vegan means somebody who does not use animal products for ethical reasons. If you call yourself vegan, although you deliberately do eat some animal products sometimes, this would seems to me to make as much sense as calling yourself 20% pregnant. Either you are pregnant, or you are not. You can call yourself "mostly vegan" and other (100%) vegans will not find fault with that.

And, take the example, if you are out with your friends, and they know that you do make exceptions sometimes, surely they will try to ask you to make an exception with them. Or if your wife cooks chicken, and is disappointed that you do not want to eat it, although you sometimes do ... I think that might be confusing for everybody.

And, lastly, as I already mentioned, my personal experience was that only when I completely stopped to eat meat for about a month, did I break my dependency on meat and could decide myself whether I wanted to continue to eat it. If you keep eating a little bit now and then, my guess is that you will keep missing it....

 

[ledboots]

Per wiki

"Semi-vegetarianism
A semi-vegetarian or flexitarian diet is one that is plant-based with the occasional inclusion of meat products. In 2003, the American Dialect Society voted flexitarian as the year's most useful word. Wikipedia"
-------

So "flexitarian" would be a correct term for occasionally eating meat. You could also correctly say "mostly vegetarian" or "mostly plant-based."

Or if you stop eating chicken nuggets, "strict vegetarian"'would apply. Btw, do you know the chicken nuggets we feed our children are often made of baby roosters ground up alive within minutes of birth? There are very good plant based nuggets on the market that taste very similar.

Since veganism is more than just diet, I think a part-time vegan would be rare. Do you wear leather, use products tested on animals?

 

[Andy_T]

Or if you stop eating chicken nuggets, "strict vegetarian"'would apply. Btw, do you know the chicken nuggets we feed our children are often made of baby roosters ground up alive within minutes of birth? There are very good plant based nuggets on the market that taste very similar.

Really? That's the first time I hear that. So far, I thought that those unfortunate animals would simply be killed and thrown away.

 

[shyvas]

Really? That's the first time I hear that. So far, I thought that those unfortunate animals would simply be killed and thrown away.

I didn't know that.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I thought chicks were turned into animal feed....I think they feed them to captive birds of prey.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Hi Andy, thanks again for your detailed reply. Actually, your responses are kind of what I would already half expect a vegan to say in most cases, so I think I am starting to understand this.

I think in practice, one's reason for choosing a certain diet is more likely to come up at the dinner table when you are seen not eating something, when you are going to get asked why. And I just wonder if you really believe in what you are doing being morally right, perhaps it's a good idea to answer a question gently not "you are immoral because you eat meat". How about "some of the things the meat industry does aren't always the best in terms of animal welfare, we can talk about it more later if you like though". The argument seem quite strong for those willing to look at it logically. However, perhaps we can come back to this discussion in the future when I have more experience of it.

I take your point about not calling yourself vegan, but I would quibble a bit that there is any absolute distinction at all. Not disagreeing with you exactly but there must be some grey area. Surely all vegans are such to a matter of degree to a greater or lesser extent. Surely all vegans eat or consume animal products at least occasionally, like a cake that was produced with an egg which you didn't realise, or some product that unexpectedly had a small amount of milk in, or a product you order online that arrives and unexpectedly has a small amount of leather in it not seen in the photo. In order for this not to be the case, a vegan would virtually have to refuse to eat outside of their own home or a vegan restaurant, and take great care in buying every single product. Rather like a modern equivalent of a Buddhist monk sweeping gently aside the insects before every step they take.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Semi vegetarian or mostly vegan might work. Flexitarian I'm not sure about because there is a muddle of terms and most people probably won't get it.

People who change from regular meat eaters to an occasional meat diet are benefitting the world perhaps 90% as much as a vegan does.

However it is a bit of a strange moral compromise if you believe eating meat is wrong. A bit like a bank robber who plans to rob 7 banks but sees the moral error of his ways and decides not to rob the first 6, but still robs the last one because he feels like it and still wants at least some easy money.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Per wiki

"Semi-vegetarianism
A semi-vegetarian or flexitarian diet is one that is plant-based with the occasional inclusion of meat products. In 2003, the American Dialect Society voted flexitarian as the year's most useful word. Wikipedia"
-------

So "flexitarian" would be a correct term for occasionally eating meat. You could also correctly say "mostly vegetarian" or "mostly plant-based."

Or if you stop eating chicken nuggets, "strict vegetarian"'would apply. Btw, do you know the chicken nuggets we feed our children are often made of baby roosters ground up alive within minutes of birth? There are very good plant based nuggets on the market that taste very similar.

Since veganism is more than just diet, I think a part-time vegan would be rare. Do you wear leather, use products tested on animals?

No, I did not know that. Have you got a source for that? One of the books I read said that KFC has probably caused more pain and suffering than any company that ever existed. It sounds bizarre at first, but if you think about it, it may even be a good shout.

I wouldn't buy any products that obviously looked like they were made out of animal products, like a fur coat. I wouldn't buy a certain brand of shampoo if I heard about its testing of animal products. However I also don't consider this most of the time when I buy products, so I probably do buy some products like that without thinking about it. I'll probably look at these issues later on. I am just looking at food issues for now.

 

[ledboots]

I just looked up the chicken nugget thing, and they are not made of ground up male baby chicks, I'm sorry I was mistaken. They are made of parts of ground up adult chickens.

 

[Andy_T]

However it is a bit of a strange moral compromise if you believe eating meat is wrong. A bit like a bank robber who plans to rob 7 banks but sees the moral error of his ways and decides not to rob the first 6, but still robs the last one because he feels like it and still wants at least some easy money.

That is the main point for me.
Also, how to explain to your gang members why you do not want to rob bank no. 3 for moral reasons, if you rob bank no. 7, and expect them to respect your choice ?

In order for this not to be the case, a vegan would virtually have to refuse to eat outside of their own home or a vegan restaurant, ...

I see that you are getting the picture

Yes, those vegans that I know that call themselves that, read every single ingredient list in the supermarket, and ask the waiter about the vegan options (or go to vegan or at least vegetarian restaurants). When I order pizza or spaghetti in a restaurant, I ask the waiter if the dough contains eggs or dairy products, and mention specifically that I do not want to have any kind of cheese with it (as this normally gets added without much thought). If the pizza dough does contain eggs, I go for spaghetti (I had spaghetti with tomato sauce every day, for a week, when I had a recent business trip to Mexico. It was the only vegan option available in most restaurants there). If the pasta contains eggs (like no good Italian pasta should), then I go for a large salad, without the dressing.

I also have attended buffets where I ended up taking 3 helpings from the salad buffet, and some white rice and sauce after checking with one of the cooks about the ingredients of the sauce. When I am in doubt whether the food might contain animal products and no cook is around to help me, then I go for something that is safe.

There is a difference in eating something that contains animal products by error (again, should not happen often if you check the ingredients), and saying "Hey, today I will eat the cake, there is only a little egg/milk/dairy/lard/meat/whatever in it. So, by all means, go ahead and call yourself a flexitarian, vegetarian, "plant-based eater", but it would be more correct in my personal opinion if you only called yourself a vegan if you agree with that philosophy

And as far as questions over dinner are asked, I typically simply say "Well, I personally choose to eat vegan for 3 reasons: it is better for the animals, the environment and my body. Also, I like to eat plant food, so why should I eat meat?" No omnivore has ever felt insulted by that very general explanation.

I would really not add "But I don't think that you are a bad person for eating meat"

 

[Andy_T]

... and take great care in buying every single product. Rather like a modern equivalent of a Buddhist monk sweeping gently aside the insects before every step they take.

One of the key words about the definition of "vegan" in my opinion is "wherever possible".

I will not refuse to work on a computer (animal ingredients) in the office or refuse to get a phone (animal ingredients), drive a car (animal ingredients in the car and in the tarmac, plus insects hitting the windscreen), ride the underground (leather handgrips) or get life-saving medicine (tested on animals).

However, I will eat 3 helpings of salad (or nothing at all) for lunch or buy a shampoo that is not tested on animals and produced without animal ingredients instead of grabbing the first one in the supermarket. There are also online shops selling shoes not made from leather. Also, you learn what to look for (e.g. leather labels on jeans or "fake fur" that might as well also be real fur form China ) That is possible for me with a little extra effort or some extra cost that I am willing to spend.

BUT ... I am REALLY HAPPY about everybody who goes "mostly vegan" and calls him/herself that

 

[Jamie in Chile]

When I order pizza or spaghetti in a restaurant, I ask the waiter if the dough contains eggs or dairy products, and mention specifically that I do not want to have any kind of cheese with it (as this normally gets added without much thought).

The trouble with this is firstly that is going to be annoying hassle for the waiters, who what 8 or 9 times out of 10 won't even know the answer (maybe less if you eat at good restaurants in developed countries) and also will make you the awkward, embarrassing one to your friends and family. What do you do if the waiter says they are going to have to go off and ask the chef? If that happens, do you make everyone delay their orders by several minutes while he goes and does it, or do you cut in and just say forget it I'll have the spaghetti. Might be just easier for me personally to avoid pizza as a choice unless in a vegan restaurant or making it yourself at home or at the home of a vegan friend (not that I have any so far).

I think I'd prefer (at least to start with) just to make a judgement call from the menu about whether a product is most likely to be vegan.

One of the issues for me is going to with living in Chile. I have a high level of Spanish but asking about what the dough is made of could lead to some misunderstandings. And here the concept of veganism is so low I'll probably just say to people that I'm vegetarian. In Chile, and other Spanish speaking countries, if you say you don't eat meat, people will say "what about chicken?" or "not even chicken??". Carne, meaning meat, sometimes informally refers to cow meat. Chicken is semi vegetarianism to a latino macho!

 

[AeryFairy]

I take your point about not calling yourself vegan, but I would quibble a bit that there is any absolute distinction at all. Not disagreeing with you exactly but there must be some grey area. Surely all vegans are such to a matter of degree to a greater or lesser extent. Surely all vegans eat or consume animal products at least occasionally, like a cake that was produced with an egg which you didn't realise, or some product that unexpectedly had a small amount of milk in, or a product you order online that arrives and unexpectedly has a small amount of leather in it not seen in the photo. In order for this not to be the case, a vegan would virtually have to refuse to eat outside of their own home or a vegan restaurant, and take great care in buying every single product. Rather like a modern equivalent of a Buddhist monk sweeping gently aside the insects before every step they take.

One issue with calling yourself vegan and then intentionally consuming products which are not vegan is that non-vegan people tend to see this and assume it is what all vegans do. Many times, I have been offered something non-vegan which was then followed up with "oh but I know this vegan who still eats fish/eggs/dairy sometimes". Sometimes, I have been served it without being asked/informed, whilst being told that it was suitable for me to eat as a vegan, due to this belief.

Consuming something accidentally is not the same as consuming something with intent. Everyone will have a different level of what they are comfortable assuming/asking about, but taking reasonable steps to ensure products are vegan is not the same as knowing for sure that something is not and having it anyway.

 

[ledboots]

The trouble with this is firstly that is going to be annoying hassle for the waiters, who what 8 or 9 times out of 10 won't even know the answer (maybe less if you eat at good restaurants in developed countries) and also will make you the awkward, embarrassing one to your friends and family. What do you do if the waiter says they are going to have to go off and ask the chef? If that happens, do you make everyone delay their orders by several minutes while he goes and does it, or do you cut in and just say forget it I'll have the spaghetti. Might be just easier for me personally to avoid pizza as a choice unless in a vegan restaurant or making it yourself at home or at the home of a vegan friend (not that I have any so far).

I think I'd prefer (at least to start with) just to make a judgement call from the menu about whether a product is most likely to be vegan.

One of the issues for me is going to with living in Chile. I have a high level of Spanish but asking about what the dough is made of could lead to some misunderstandings. And here the concept of veganism is so low I'll probably just say to people that I'm vegetarian. In Chile, and other Spanish speaking countries, if you say you don't eat meat, people will say "what about chicken?" or "not even chicken??". Carne, meaning meat, sometimes informally refers to cow meat. Chicken is semi vegetarianism to a latino macho!

I let everyone else I'm with order, and then I do. It is the server's job to know the food, and none have ever been rude or delayed things for the rest of the table.

Usually it is simple stuff like no cheese in the salad please, etc. I assume that spaghetti doesn't have egg; I don't ask about that. Before I go to the restaurant, I check their menu online. Lots of them have nutrition facts now where you can see the ingredients. I probably have accidentally had trace animal ingredients in my restaurant food a time or two. I chalk it up to what is practicable and possible.

 

[Dedalus]

Those are valid questions,

Those are not valid questions. I've been away and perhaps late to the party but it seems to me that the members need to be aware of what's under the bridge here.

 

[ledboots]

Those are not valid questions. I've been away and perhaps late to the party but it seems to me that the members need to be aware of what's under the bridge here.

I know, but there is always hope that he will convert. Some of the people who gave me the hardest time about going veg are now veg*n...

 

[Dedalus]

I know, but there is always hope that he will convert. Some of the people who gave me the hardest time about going veg are now veg*n...

Agreed - not trying to dissuade anyone from being courteous and willing to educate, but personally when I see plant morality and road kill questions, I'm out.

 

[Second Summer]

Those are not valid questions. I've been away and perhaps late to the party but it seems to me that the members need to be aware of what's under the bridge here.

While the questions asked here are perhaps more difficult than the average "is honey vegan?" type question, I don't think they're likely to trigger emotional responses or stir up other problems.

For the record, all new threads in the questions forum go through a moderator approval step before they become visible to members.

 

[Dedalus]

While the questions asked here are perhaps more difficult than the average "is honey vegan?" type question, I don't think they're likely to trigger emotional responses or stir up other problems.

Well, to be sure - these types of questions do in fact, stir up an emotional response in me. Which is: what kind of ******** question is that? Plants have feelings and why not eat road-kill arguments are predominantly used by people who have no intention of going vegan and just want to stir **** up. Just my half-pence, IS. Carry on.