I have a son who is attempting to become vegan, from and early age I have encouraged thinking in terms of reducing exploitation and suffering of animals for any reason. I consider myself a reducitarian as I still eat animal products on a semi/regular basis. I am having difficulty understanding the term or definition of veganism in opposition to the the term reducitarian which I consider to be the only honest position. I am looking for help to understand the difference more meaningfully. thanks
Question Help to understand veganism please
- Thread starter Michael_D
- Start date
Hello Michael, welcome to the forum!
First of all, thank you for reducing the amount of animals you consume yourself out of consideration for the environment (and possibly the plight of nonhuman animals).
As to your question - my view is that a vegan is somebody who chooses not to consume non-human animals and their products, even if it is inconvenient to do so (that is what I would see as the main difference to a « reducitarian »), because s/he believes it is morally wrong.
You should get along fine, I guess!
I am the only vegan in my family (one of my sons is « pescatarian »), and when we prepare food, we typically prepare a basic vegan-friendly meal with possibly some non-vegan add-ons for those family members who prefer to add animal products for taste. But you can get all your required nutrition from vegan options and thrive on those, by simply supplementing b12 (we all take the supplements, they are also suggested for omnivores)
First of all, thank you for reducing the amount of animals you consume yourself out of consideration for the environment (and possibly the plight of nonhuman animals).
As to your question - my view is that a vegan is somebody who chooses not to consume non-human animals and their products, even if it is inconvenient to do so (that is what I would see as the main difference to a « reducitarian »), because s/he believes it is morally wrong.
You should get along fine, I guess!
I am the only vegan in my family (one of my sons is « pescatarian »), and when we prepare food, we typically prepare a basic vegan-friendly meal with possibly some non-vegan add-ons for those family members who prefer to add animal products for taste. But you can get all your required nutrition from vegan options and thrive on those, by simply supplementing b12 (we all take the supplements, they are also suggested for omnivores)
I’m not clear on what you mean by this. If you can clarify I will be better equipped to give a point of view.
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You're focusing solely on truths you've been exposed to. If you'd been raised a vegetarian like many people in India for example, you would be horrified that others would eat others.
Just because we've been brought up to think certain things were necessary doesn't mean we should continue to do those things after we've learned they are not healthy or necessary. Children grown up having to drink milk, and eat meat for health. Farms are friendly and provide health, but no child is ever given a slaughterhouse to play with.
We continue to promote the idea of symbiotic relationships between animals and humans that held, even though that need is gone. A true need for hunting means knowing herds, following them and knowing which are the older ones, closer to death, farther from being needed in their communities. It didn't mean killing the first one you see. Raising animals involved the animals health and welfare for people to get back milk and eggs.
We don't have those lives anymore. We have machines to mill grains, to farm vegetables even in hydroponic greenhouses. We have heating and cooling. Our lifestyles and physical needs have completely changed. We know that animal products are not optimal for human diets.
To be fair, living a life that involved hunting and fishing and obtaining water from clear freshwater streams, without modern amenities would be be healthy- but that isn't how most of us live
We use animal products now for one reason only- greed, and propaganda.
I get so angry from people trying to justify the use of things that do more harm than good. Whether it's using fossils fuels instead of renewable energy, pesticides rather than natural means, clear cutting forests rather than sustainable farming, products that pollute, promote inhumane conditions, that only serve to make rich corporations richer at the expense of the earth and it's inhabitents
I wonder if you are questioning the label "vegan"? Since it's pretty much a fact that it is nearly impossible to be 100% vegan 100% of the time, most of us just accept that the best we can do is try our best to use as few animal products as possible, realizing that some medications, trace ingredients or changes in products we're used to sometimes mean we make mistakes. And then of course, there's always the animals and bugs who are killed in the farming of the very plants we try to eat instead of animals. It's not perfect, that's for sure.
Thank you all for so much effort in your responses, As Silva correctly states we all can only focus "... solely on truths you've been exposed to." I would like to focus on what I have been exposed to and why I ask the original question and expressed my opinion.
If, for example, one were told that their phone was made using animal products and one decided to continue to use that phone after self confirmed knowledge that this was a fact. Would it be correct to still consider oneself a vegan? This is what I am trying to understand.
Is it correct/honest to label oneself as a vegan rather then a"reducaterian" when one is knowingly still using products that one could somewhat inconveniently avoid using.
There are many many such examples as above including computers that make me ponder where the actual line that a person considering themselves to be a vegan would be if an individual was to investigate every product one consumes/uses. Of course individuals opinion would be different so my asking for an 'official' definitive might not be answerable hence my own conclusion of perhaps a more accurate label 'reducatarian'.
In summary, I would like to know should one consider someone else a vegan or a non vegan when they know that this person was still knowingly using animal products?
Perhaps becoming a vegan is a target/goal rather then one claiming to be and saying they are a 'vegan'?
I appreciate your input in this forum as most discussion of this nature with my son becomes rather heated!
If, for example, one were told that their phone was made using animal products and one decided to continue to use that phone after self confirmed knowledge that this was a fact. Would it be correct to still consider oneself a vegan? This is what I am trying to understand.
Is it correct/honest to label oneself as a vegan rather then a"reducaterian" when one is knowingly still using products that one could somewhat inconveniently avoid using.
There are many many such examples as above including computers that make me ponder where the actual line that a person considering themselves to be a vegan would be if an individual was to investigate every product one consumes/uses. Of course individuals opinion would be different so my asking for an 'official' definitive might not be answerable hence my own conclusion of perhaps a more accurate label 'reducatarian'.
In summary, I would like to know should one consider someone else a vegan or a non vegan when they know that this person was still knowingly using animal products?
Perhaps becoming a vegan is a target/goal rather then one claiming to be and saying they are a 'vegan'?
I appreciate your input in this forum as most discussion of this nature with my son becomes rather heated!
Oh.... yeah we can only do the best we can! It's about being against exploiting animals, but it's about intent, not purity. You will run across people who rant and rave about everything from fertilizer, and vegan cats, and bicycle tires, (all while on a computer 
) but what good does that do anyone?
We have to work with what we have. If someone lives in small rural community, raising kids, living paycheck to paycheck, I don't have the same expectations as I would a single person, good job, living in Portland OR! Being vegan is more of a journey towards a kinder, healthier world. Even people who are more 'flexitarian' and are mindful of how they live are important to helping animal rights. Even Michael Pollan with his popular "Omnivores Dillemma" has changed how people feel about the animals they eat, promoting less meat and more animal welfare.
Just because you can't change everything should never stop you from changing what you can.
The starfish story is a pretty good way of looking at being vegan-
"Once a man was walking along a beach. The sun was shining and it was a beautiful day. Off in the distance he could see a person going back and forth between the surf's edge and the beach. Back and forth this person went. As the man approached he could see that there were hundreds of starfish stranded on the sand as the result of the natural action of the tide. The man was stuck by the apparent futility of the task. There were far too many starfish. Many of them were sure to perish. As he approached the person continued the task of picking up starfish one by one and throwing them into the surf. As he came up to the person he said, "You must be crazy. There are thousands of miles of beach covered with starfish. You can't possibly make a difference. " The person looked at the man. He then stooped down and picks up one more starfish and threw it back into the ocean. He turned back to the man and said, "It sure made a difference to that one!"
) but what good does that do anyone?We have to work with what we have. If someone lives in small rural community, raising kids, living paycheck to paycheck, I don't have the same expectations as I would a single person, good job, living in Portland OR! Being vegan is more of a journey towards a kinder, healthier world. Even people who are more 'flexitarian' and are mindful of how they live are important to helping animal rights. Even Michael Pollan with his popular "Omnivores Dillemma" has changed how people feel about the animals they eat, promoting less meat and more animal welfare.
Just because you can't change everything should never stop you from changing what you can.
The starfish story is a pretty good way of looking at being vegan-
"Once a man was walking along a beach. The sun was shining and it was a beautiful day. Off in the distance he could see a person going back and forth between the surf's edge and the beach. Back and forth this person went. As the man approached he could see that there were hundreds of starfish stranded on the sand as the result of the natural action of the tide. The man was stuck by the apparent futility of the task. There were far too many starfish. Many of them were sure to perish. As he approached the person continued the task of picking up starfish one by one and throwing them into the surf. As he came up to the person he said, "You must be crazy. There are thousands of miles of beach covered with starfish. You can't possibly make a difference. " The person looked at the man. He then stooped down and picks up one more starfish and threw it back into the ocean. He turned back to the man and said, "It sure made a difference to that one!"
Labels are always tricky - they often have fairly well-defined definitions while still being a personal challenge for individuals trying to meet those definitions - like Christians, or artists, or even friends.
Since it is impossible for someone to be a perfect vegan all of the time, I think we have to assume that anyone who adopts the label "vegan" likely does it to identify with a social movement, to help other people understand when it comes to sharing food and meals, to strengthen conviction or some other, well-meaning reason.
Most long-term vegans understand that veganism really is a personal journey that has its bumps in the road.
Since it is impossible for someone to be a perfect vegan all of the time, I think we have to assume that anyone who adopts the label "vegan" likely does it to identify with a social movement, to help other people understand when it comes to sharing food and meals, to strengthen conviction or some other, well-meaning reason.
Most long-term vegans understand that veganism really is a personal journey that has its bumps in the road.
I don't think it's possible to be a "perfect" vegan, but that's not a reason to not try to live as vegan a lifestyle as possible.
And I say that as someone who doesn't call herself vegan, because I've drawn my personal line a bit further back than what's "possible."
I think that if one is still eating meat, even occasionally, or gelatin and other products made from the corpses of animals, one should not call oneself "vegetarian." Likewise, if one is eating dairy or eggs, or buying leather products , etc., one should not call oneself "vegan".
On the whole, though, I think one's energies are put to better use scrutinizing one's own personal choices than those of others who are trying to minimize the suffering that they cause.
And I say that as someone who doesn't call herself vegan, because I've drawn my personal line a bit further back than what's "possible."
I think that if one is still eating meat, even occasionally, or gelatin and other products made from the corpses of animals, one should not call oneself "vegetarian." Likewise, if one is eating dairy or eggs, or buying leather products , etc., one should not call oneself "vegan".
On the whole, though, I think one's energies are put to better use scrutinizing one's own personal choices than those of others who are trying to minimize the suffering that they cause.
Ah, I see now where you are coming from!
The original definition of "veganism" includes the phrase "where practiceable".
No, if you will die if you do not take a life-saving medicine because it was tested on animals, nobody expects you to either not take the medicine, or refrain from calling yourself "vegan" after you have taken it.
No, if all computers are made with animal derived products, you should not quit your job and go to live as a hermit in a cave. But you should, wherever it is easily possible (such as ... every time you are standing in a supermarket and decide which kind of milk to buy) go for the vegan option....
The original definition of "veganism" includes the phrase "where practiceable".
No, if you will die if you do not take a life-saving medicine because it was tested on animals, nobody expects you to either not take the medicine, or refrain from calling yourself "vegan" after you have taken it.
No, if all computers are made with animal derived products, you should not quit your job and go to live as a hermit in a cave. But you should, wherever it is easily possible (such as ... every time you are standing in a supermarket and decide which kind of milk to buy) go for the vegan option....
Off topic but that is the way that I try and approach animal suffering in the world. The high numbers and stories of animals that suffer is quite overwhelming. When you save one tiny mite it really does make all the difference due to the total joy you feel when you save that one little (important) life.
