Healthy carbs?

Lou

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I've read something about the absorption of vitamins (A, D, E and K) which can only occur when combined with fats. Unfortunately I don't remember the source, but when I get you right, I can just eat some of the foods listed above without anything else and still get these vitamins?

what you read is right. we need to eat some fat in our diet, not just for the absorbing of fat soluble vitamins (such as A, D, E and K), but also for their storage and utilization.

Some fat in our diets is necessary for that reason (and others). I think the amount of fat we need in our diets is more than 14% (by calories). I know some people will argue that its lower. They may be right. To me its a moot point. I can never get the amount of fat in my diet below 20. lately I'm happy with 25.

But I think what we all agree on is you don't need oil in your diets. Sugar is to carbs like oil is to fat. Oil is a highly processed food just like sugar. Its empty calories with little to no other nutrients
I remember a scene in House, M.D. in which a guy is orange because of to much Vitamin A :)

Maybe that is what is wrong with Trump, too. :)

I thought I've read something about flaxseed (or Psyllium? Maybe it's the same problem with both), but again, I don't remember the source.. :(
Um. I lost the train of thought. But the thing about flaxseed is that although its high in fat - its high in ALA - Omega 3. And the omegas are considered Essential Fats. We don't need a lot but we do need some. And for vegans, one of the best and easiest way to get ALA is from flaxseeds foods that contain a lot of ALA. That is why Dr. Gregar puts flax on his daily dozen.


It's a kind of dilemma: if you just put them on your meal, they won't get fully opened and there are not as much ALAs to absorb. But if you break them up just before eating, there will be hydrogen cyanide.Is this true? How to eat them safely, but get as much healthy nutritions as possible out of it?

You have to grind flaxseed. if you were to eat it with the hulls on you would not be able to digest that much of it. I grind my flaxseeds in a coffee grinder I only grind a half of a cup at a time. and then I store it in the frig. I THINK the cyanide issue is from the seeds degrading after grinding. I've even started keeping the package of whole seeds in the frig. Maybe that is overly cautious, but they don't take up much space.

There was something out of the EU on cyanide - I'll have to look it up. but I remember that it had to do with products that included ground flaxseed but they were able to wash the cyanide out.

Meanwhile flaxseed are not the only source of omega 3s. there are chia seeds that don't need to be ground. And hemp hearts which you buy with the hulls removed. Walnuts are a good source too. Maybe not worth mentioning but canola oil, too.
 
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Lou

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Lou, Dr. Greger’s Daily Dozen recommendations are minimums, not maximums.
True, but I have trouble meeting the DD as it is.

And... in economics its called Replacement Cost. If you consume calories in one area it is going to cost you calories in another.

And Fuhran does state that grains should be less than 3 servings a day - just 2 if you want to lose weight.
 

silva

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I've read something about the absorption of vitamins (A, D, E and K) which can only occur when combined with fats. Unfortunately I don't remember the source, but when I get you right, I can just eat some of the foods listed above without anything else and still get these vitamins?

I remember a scene in House, M.D. in which a guy is orange because of to much Vitamin A :)



😄



I thought I've read something about flaxseed (or Psyllium? Maybe it's the same problem with both), but again, I don't remember the source.. :(

It's a kind of dilemma: if you just put them on your meal, they won't get fully opened and there are not as much ALAs to absorb. But if you break them up just before eating, there will be hydrogen cyanide.

Is this true? How to eat them safely, but get as much healthy nutritions as possible out of it?

Again, thank you both very much for your helpful informations!
It's okay-
...and yes, you do need to grind them!
 
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Tyll

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Heartfelt thanks to all your helpful replies! :)

I'm reading "Becoming Vegan" by B. Davis and V. Melina at the moment (and there are so many books on my to-read list on this topic), but there are short-term questions from time to time, and I really appreciate your helpfulness to answer these.

I am also a random person on the internet, so I urge you to check what the doctors I mentioned actually say. If you listen to what people heard or think they heard from the doctors, you will inevitably absorb a lot of misinformation. It's best to go right to the source.

That's right, but I consider all the people helping me out with this question in this thread to be very well informed :)

Meanwhile flaxseed are not the only source of omega 3s. there are chia seeds that don't need to be ground. And hemp hearts which you buy with the hulls removed. Walnuts are a good source too. Maybe not worth mentioning but canola oil, too.

Thank you for this advice, I will check whether chia seeds or hemp hearts would be a good replacement. Flax seeds aren't expensive, but I think I've heard of chia seeds in the context of "super food", so maybe they are a bit pricier. Walnuts are an essential part of my oatmeal porridge already :)
 
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Lou

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Thank you for this advice, I will check whether chia seeds or hemp hearts would be a good replacement. Flax seeds aren't expensive, but I think I've heard of chia seeds in the context of "super food", so maybe they are a bit pricier. Walnuts are an essential part of my oatmeal porridge already :)

Chia, hemp, and flax are all a little pricey. Hemp hearts are the priciest (but they also have protein). Flax seed is about half the price of chia seeds. Chia and Flax have similar amounts of omega 3.


Personally, I don't care for walnuts. but walnuts are an excellent source of Omega 3s. I think one ounce of walnuts is equivalent to one tbsp of flax or chia (2500 mg of omega 3)

One last thing, none of these sources of Omega 3 have much DHA or EPA. So you may still need to supplement for those.

We discussed and over-analyzed it here.
 

silva

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Chia, hemp, and flax are all a little pricey. Hemp hearts are the priciest (but they also have protein). Flax seed is about half the price of chia seeds. Chia and Flax have similar amounts of omega 3.


Personally, I don't care for walnuts. but walnuts are an excellent source of Omega 3s. I think one ounce of walnuts is equivalent to one tbsp of flax or chia (2500 mg of omega 3)

One last thing, none of these sources of Omega 3 have much DHA or EPA. So you may still need to supplement for those.

We discussed and over-analyzed it here.
The only sources of DHA/EPA are from the sea. Our bodies may be able to formulate them from ALA found in omegas, but not everyone does a good job, and our ability to make the conversion diminishes as we age
Algae DHA is the one supplement I was really able to tell a difference. I started taking them years ago, and everytime I stop for a few weeks, my attention and focus slips.
They were quite pricey, but are coming down.
 
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Lou

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The only sources of DHA/EPA are from the sea. Our bodies may be able to formulate them from ALA found in omegas, but not everyone does a good job, and our ability to make the conversion diminishes as we age
Algae DHA is the one supplement I was really able to tell a difference. I started taking them years ago, and everytime I stop for a few weeks, my attention and focus slips.
They were quite pricey, but are coming down.
I wonder......
would we be able to grow the right kind of algae in a fish tank. Every morning you would remove the specified amount of algae with a fish net and then add it to your oatmeal or smoothie. You probably wouldn't even need that much. Might not even need to be a big fish tank.
 

Lou

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Just did some preliminary research and not only is it possible but it sounds easy.
Nannochloropsis, the species we need is sort of like a weed. We just need an air pump and lights.
Sounds like you should dry it and turn it to powder for portion control.

 

silva

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I wonder......
would we be able to grow the right kind of algae in a fish tank. Every morning you would remove the specified amount of algae with a fish net and then add it to your oatmeal or smoothie. You probably wouldn't even need that much. Might not even need to be a big fish tank.
EWwwwwwwww.......:hurl:
I can't stand it when I burp! I find carageenan helps, as well as taking in the morning prior to eating for a few hours
Just got these, they're higher potency than others, and were a good price (were cause they're out now)
 

Lou

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I am sorry I went and got this thread off topic.

But just one more. I was putting together an order at one of those online pill shops and needed something else to qualify for free shipping and went and got the DEVA version of DHA/EPA. Pretty comparable to the other's we've talked about.
 

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I bought into the anti-Carbs thing years ago when I paid attention to the bodybuilder crowd of the Menshealth forums, etc. It seemed logical to me that high protein meals make you feel full for longer (harder to digest) so your overall calorie intake can end up being lower (hence: Atkins works, but is extremely unhealthy).

So I stuck to complex carbs and avoided refined carbs.

But John McDougall says things like "No One EVER got fat eating carbs." and you can eat as much of them as you like, and you'll feel full. I'm sure he means good carbs but he says a 'starch-based' diet is the best, healthiest one. I'm still undecided about McDougall. He's fascinating to listen to, but sometimes I worry a little especially when he talks about high salt intake being harmless.

Curiously, someone in the Menshealth muscle crowd once remarked that your body can make any one of protein, fat, and starch, from any of the others. Is this really true?

John
 
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Emma JC

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I bought into the anti-Carbs thing years ago when I paid attention to the bodybuilder crowd of the Menshealth forums, etc. It seemed logical to me that high protein meals make you feel full for longer (harder to digest) so your overall calorie intake can end up being lower (hence: Atkins works, but is extremely unhealthy).

So I stuck to complex carbs and avoided refined carbs.

But John McDougall says things like "No One EVER got fat eating carbs." and you can eat as much of them as you like, and you'll feel full. I'm sure he means good carbs but he says a 'starch-based' diet is the best, healthiest one. I'm still undecided about McDougall. He's fascinating to listen to, but sometimes I worry a little especially when he talks about high salt intake being harmless.

Curiously, someone in the Menshealth muscle crowd once remarked that your body can make any one of protein, fat, and starch, from any of the others. Is this really true?

John

I am vegan because of Dr McDougall and do call myself a Starchivore sometimes. I eat a lot of starch, not a lot of fat, and a decent amount of protein. Most of the starch I eat is pasta (whole grain and white), rice (white), sprouted breads, potatoes, sweet potatoes, oatmeal, beans and I love it and my body does too. I tend to be a couch potato, especially during Covid, and yet I have still kept of most of the initial weight that I lost when I went plant-based almost 5 years ago. For me, listening to Dr McDougall and hearing that I could eat as many starches as I wanted was the final straw as I had tried a few times with Dr Esselstyns diet. This time it stuck and I have never been happier. Starches are comforting and satiating and convert into energy and as long as you don't eat a lot of "carbs" that include fats and sugars (like donuts).

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com
 

johnnyivan

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I am vegan because of Dr McDougall and do call myself a Starchivore sometimes. I eat a lot of starch, not a lot of fat, and a decent amount of protein. Most of the starch I eat is pasta (whole grain and white), rice (white), sprouted breads, potatoes, sweet potatoes, oatmeal, beans and I love it and my body does too. I tend to be a couch potato, especially during Covid, and yet I have still kept of most of the initial weight that I lost when I went plant-based almost 5 years ago. For me, listening to Dr McDougall and hearing that I could eat as many starches as I wanted was the final straw as I had tried a few times with Dr Esselstyns diet. This time it stuck and I have never been happier. Starches are comforting and satiating and convert into energy and as long as you don't eat a lot of "carbs" that include fats and sugars (like donuts).

Emma JC
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Yeah, it's funny though, 'Carbs' are said to give shorter term satiety—especially crappier refined ones. Quick energy spike, and then a big drop-off. They're demonised when it comes to insulin response and diabetes too.
My porridge does keep me going for hours though. That's pretty complex carbs—I think. And I have soya milk, flaxseed and peanuts in it too.
 
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poivron

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I am vegan because of Dr McDougall and do call myself a Starchivore sometimes. I eat a lot of starch, not a lot of fat, and a decent amount of protein. Most of the starch I eat is pasta (whole grain and white), rice (white), sprouted breads, potatoes, sweet potatoes, oatmeal, beans and I love it and my body does too. I tend to be a couch potato, especially during Covid, and yet I have still kept of most of the initial weight that I lost when I went plant-based almost 5 years ago. For me, listening to Dr McDougall and hearing that I could eat as many starches as I wanted was the final straw as I had tried a few times with Dr Esselstyns diet. This time it stuck and I have never been happier. Starches are comforting and satiating and convert into energy and as long as you don't eat a lot of "carbs" that include fats and sugars (like donuts).

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

For the past year or so, my spouse and I have also been following Dr. McDougall's diet. We eat large amounts of starch (potatoes, sweet potatoes, whole-wheat pasta, whole-wheat bread, brown rice, corn) with green vegetables (broccoli, chard, collards, zucchini, asparagus, green beans, green peppers, kale, spinach). We also eat beans and other legumes, though in smaller amounts. We are very careful to avoid oils, high-fat plant foods (nuts, nut butters, avocados, coconuts, and chocolate), and processed vegan foods. We eat fruit, as well as dessert every day in the form of home-made cakes, muffins, pies, and puddings that are all low-fat. Since starting on this diet, we have lost a total of about 45 kg (100 lbs).

Yeah, it's funny though, 'Carbs' are said to give shorter term satiety—especially crappier refined ones. Quick energy spike, and then a big drop-off. They're demonised when it comes to insulin response and diabetes too.

As I wrote earlier in this thread, it's important to listen only to the vegan doctors and ignore the carnist medical establishment's statements when it comes to nutrition. Dr. Barnard, for example, has led studies and written a book that show that carbs are not a problem for diabetics. What diabetics need to avoid is fat, not carbs. See:
https://www.powells.com/book/-9781594868108/1-3
and:
https://www.pcrm.org/news/exam-room-podcast/reversing-diabetes
 
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poivron

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Not at all. You didn't click onto the Eatwell Guide link.
I just looked at that guide, and it recommends eating animals and their secretions. So I was right when I said it is "written for people who eat animals". It says (warning: the following can cause some vegans to feel anxious and angry, so please skip reading the rest of this post if you are sensitive) "Milk and dairy foods, such as cheese and yoghurt, are good sources of protein. They also contain calcium, which helps keep your bones healthy." It also says, "Meat is a good source of protein, vitamins and minerals, including iron, zinc and B vitamins. It's also one of the main sources of vitamin B12. Choose lean cuts of meat and skinless poultry whenever possible to cut down on fat. Always cook meat thoroughly." This is standard carnist misinformation. Moreover, I hate the use of euphemisms like "meat" and "poultry" to refer to dead animals and their body parts. The phrase "lean cuts of meat" makes me feel nauseated and angry. (I don't want to link the page here because I don't want to promote carnist medical web sites, but anyone who feels compelled to criticise me for not providing references can find it by going to the NHS link I responded to, clicking on "Live Well" at the top, and then on the square labelled "Eat Well".)

ETA: I looked again, and what I looked at before was not the "Eatwell Guide" you were specifically referring me to. So I clicked on the "Eatwell Guide", and it is not much better. I quote: "Choose lean cuts of meat and mince, and eat less red and processed meat like bacon, ham and sausages." "Aim for at least 2 portions of fish every week, 1 of which should be oily, such as salmon or mackerel." I know that you mean well, shyvas, but in the future, please read the web site you are referring others to before criticizing someone else for not reading it.)

If someone is following government nutrition recommendations and eating animals, they could get away with having "just over a third" of their diet from starchy foods. But if someone is on a low-fat vegan diet, like I am, they will be hungry all the time if "just over a third" of their diet is starchy foods. That is what I said, and I stand by it.

I reiterate that one should avoid reading nutrition recommendations written for people who eat animals or their secretions. I have personally run into trouble by combining information I got from carnist medical web sites with the information I got from the vegan doctors. I am only describing my experience here in the hope that it will help others.
 
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johnnyivan

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Since starting on this diet, we have lost a total of about 45 kg (100 lbs).
Wow!

And yes, I've heard often of diabetes being linked more to fats. I've watched some of Dr. Barnard's presentations with great interest.

What I find stunning is that many of these doctors say that Nutrition was a tiny or non-existent module of their medical education.
 
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Lou

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Curiously, someone in the Menshealth muscle crowd once remarked that your body can make any one of protein, fat, and starch, from any of the others. Is this really true?

John
I've done a little research on the differences of the different WFPB diets. They are pretty similar but I would put Mcdougal a little bit off the side. Not an outlier but not in the middle of the pack either. But that might just be my own bias.

they all agree that carbs are good and should make up a majority of your diet. And that processed foods, oils, and sugar are bad.

and yes unrefined carbs that include the fiber are slow to digest.

--------------
but that statement by the Mens health crowd is false. Although I wonder if maybe you don't remember right or if it mangled by someone.

The main thing is that proteins are made up of amino acids. And something like 9 of them we can not produce in our bodies. We need to eat protein to make protein.

We also can't produce the omegas (they are called essential fats).
 

Lou

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What I find stunning is that many of these doctors say that Nutrition was a tiny or non-existent module of their medical education.

Yes it was. Like it is for most Doctors. then they rolled up their sleeves and started researching.
 
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David3

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Yeah, it's funny though, 'Carbs' are said to give shorter term satiety—especially crappier refined ones. Quick energy spike, and then a big drop-off. They're demonised when it comes to insulin response and diabetes too.
.
The American Diabetes Association specifically recommends high-fiber, carbohydrate-rich foods: Diabetes Superfoods | ADA . Beans are at the top of their recommended foods list.
 

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I am sorry I went and got this thread off topic.

But just one more. I was putting together an order at one of those online pill shops and needed something else to qualify for free shipping and went and got the DEVA version of DHA/EPA. Pretty comparable to the other's we've talked about.

What does "DEVA version" mean? Is there a good source of DHA/EPA not coming from the sea? I wonder if there is a health benefit when weighed against the extent of pollution of the oceans.

Did you by chance try to grow your own phytoplankton meanwhile? That sounds really interesting :)