Does your clothes respect "good morals and secularism"?

I think that this is an issue where people conflate a whole bunch of things.

First, an individual who chooses to wear clothing that covers more than the societal norm is not necessarily oppressed by a spouse, a religion, or anything else, and that holds true whether or not the person finds the rationale for her/his apparel in religion or not.

Secondly, the juvenile references to female breasts are a big part of the problem. Why does any woman want to subject herself to that kind of thing by wearing a bikini?

Third, we should recognize that even in Western culture, what is seen as an erotic part of a woman's anatomy has changed over time and with varying fashion. There was a time when extremely low cut dresses were the norm, yet an ankle was not to be displayed.

Which brings me to the overarching problem, and that is the emphasis on physical appearance when it comes to women. It's not just ultra conservative Islam cultures that are at fault here; Western culture is every bit as much at fault. I would argue that a hijab is much less uncomfortable, and certainly less likely to affect health negatively, than four or five inch heels. (I also doubt the comfort of bikini bottoms that the wearers have to pull out of their butt cracks every few minutes, a phenomenon much on display dring the women's beach volleyball games at the Olympics.)

For the record, I think that it's ridiculous that we treat the sight of women's breasts differently than men's breasts, that anyone wears high heeled shoes and/or pointy shoes (or any shoes that aren't comfortable and easy to walk in and that don't deform feet or are a tripping hazard). I also think it's ridiculous that people wear uncomfortable clothes (such as ties, clothes that are too tight for comfort and/or inhibit movement, etc.)

Humans conform to a lot of silly notions when it comes to apparel, but we seem to only become aware of that when those notions are not part of our own societal norms.
 
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I think that this is an issue where people conflate a whole bunch of things.

First, an individual who chooses to wear clothing that covers more than the societal norm is not necessarily oppressed by a spouse, a religion, or anything else, and that holds true whether or not the person finds the rationale for her/his apparel in religion or not.

No, they may not necessarily be oppressed.... but it makes sense for some people to view certain clothing items as symbols of oppression. Which is fine, so long as they don't go so far as telling people what to wear or not.

Secondly, the juvenile references to female breasts are a big part of the problem. Why does any woman want to subject herself to that kind of thing by wearing a bikini?

Comments like this aren't much better than the people commenting that women shouldn't want to subject themselves to wearing a burkini. Which, by the way, nobody in this thread is saying.

]Which brings me to the overarching problem, and that is the emphasis on physical appearance when it comes to women. It's not just ultra conservative Islam cultures that are at fault here; Western culture is every bit as much at fault. I would argue that a hijab is much less uncomfortable, and certainly less likely to affect health negatively, than four or five inch heels. (I also doubt the comfort of bikini bottoms that the wearers have to pull out of their butt cracks every few minutes, a phenomenon much on display dring the women's beach volleyball games at the Olympics.)

Less uncomfortable physically, perhaps, but that doesn't mean that Muslim women enjoy wearing the hijab. Do some google searching and see what some Muslim women have to say about the matter. Some prefer to wear it, yes. However, others do not. They are made to feel that if they do not wear a hijab, they are bad people and they are not following their religion properly, etc. They must choose between a) being shamed by other Muslims for not wearing an item of clothing and b) wearing something they would prefer to not wear. How is that more comfortable than choosing to wear high heels or not? How is that the same thing? I don't mean to generalize when I say that, but this is something that does happen for some women.

If you are trying to say that the French ban is hypocritical, then yes I agree with that. I will also agree that there are problems with Western culture. There is too much objectification here. However, I don't think it is possible to make accurate comparisons between the problems of one culture to another. Women all over the world face their own issues. The issues of sexism are expressed differently in different cultures. Each one should be criticized separately, not compared.

ETA: I have created a separate thread to discuss the bikini
 
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Comments like this aren't much better than the people commenting that women shouldn't want to subject themselves to wearing a burkini. Which, by the way, nobody in this thread is saying.

I see that I should have expressed myself more clearly.

What I meant was that many women (including Muslim women, Indian women and Mennonite women whom I know) are much more comfortable wearing clothes that cover more of their bodies than typical Western street wear, let alone bikinis, precisely because they don't want to have to deal with sexually assessing looks (and all too often comments) by men.

It's an attitude that I can understand 100%.

Of course I don't think that all Muslim women want to wear the hijab; my point was/is that Westerners assume that all Muslim women who wear the hijab are oppressed or wear it only because of societal expectations. That's simply not true, just as it is not true for Mennonite women, Amish women, Indian women, or women who, as a matter of individual preference, prefer to wear trousers or long skirts rather than mini skirts.
 
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^^ Okay good. Glad to see we are on the same page!

I still see the hijab/burka/burkini as a symbol of oppression, but I understand that not everybody sees it that way. I have trouble understanding why a woman would choose to wear something that is associated with violence and that was forced upon her ancestors (and still is to this day in some areas) but I suppose it's possible to assign a different meaning to it.
 
^^ Okay good. Glad to see we are on the same page!

I still see the hijab/burka/burkini as a symbol of oppression, but I understand that not everybody sees it that way. I have trouble understanding why a woman would choose to wear something that is associated with violence and that was forced upon her ancestors (and still is to this day in some areas) but I suppose it's possible to assign a different meaning to it.

Yeah, I have a hard time understanding why women take their husband's name for the same reason.
 
I can only really talk about Muslim women in the UK, but it is only a small minority that wear the niqab or burka here. Most Muslim women I have known at work or socially have worn western clothing. The important thing about wearing any clothing that covers your face is that it severely restricts your ability to be employed as many employers will not want a woman worker who covers her whole face. I have read that most of the women who wear the full veil choose to do so, but there still must be some who feel coerced or forced to wear it. This would mean that you are unable to fully participate in society so I think it is very different to any other item of clothing a woman or a man would choose to wear. I was watching the news and there was a UK Muslim woman journalist (around 60 years old) and she was saying that UK Muslim women didn't used to dress that way and it is only due to the influence of Wahhabism that women have started to cover up more.

From hijab to burqa - a guide to Muslim headwear - Channel 4 News
 
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Corsica parents 'block women in headscarves' - BBC News
Five women wearing the Islamic headscarf have been prevented from entering a nursery school in Corsica by other parents, local media report.

Police intervened to calm the incident in Bonifacio, local media reported.

Staff and pupils at French schools are banned from wearing religious symbols - but parents are not.

Tensions between Muslims and other locals have been simmering in southern France, particularly after a jihadist in a lorry murdered 86 people in Nice.

Monday's incident in Bonifacio took place as children returned to school after the summer holiday.

The parents who blocked the women said they were unhappy because their children were reprimanded if staff saw their Christian crosses.
 
ISIS bans burqa and face veil inside its Mosul security centers - Iraqi News
Official sources in Mosul revealed that ISIS has released an order, based on which no woman is allowed to be wearing niqab or burqa when entering the security and military centers.

ISIS released the order after a number of commanders were killed by veiled women as reported by Iraqi News.

ISIS used to force women in Iraq and Syria to wear burqa and niqab; however, now the group has no choice but to prevent women wearing burqas from entering their security centers.
 
I stumbled across this article today.

The beach has always been a place to control women's bodies
In 1921, a bather in Atlantic City, New Jersey was arrested for wearing her stockings rolled below her knees and refusing to pull them up. She retaliated during her arrest by punching the officer in the eye.

These forms of control began with Victorian bathing machines, where the notion of seeing women entering the water was so abhorrent that they were forced to ride in a four-wheeled shed (known as a bathing machine) into the shallows so they could swim away from prying eyes.

I guess it explains the western view on burkinis. Women over here had to fight for their right to show skin if they want to. And of course it is always men demanding that we cover up. I wonder why. To avoid unwanted erections? I really would like to know the REAL answer.
 
Every culture seems to be the same. Just think of Japanese women who only could reveal their necks? As for bathing well, it was another step away from the strict Christian control of men and women in society.
(As for erections, they're all wanted and gratefully enjoyed :D
 
France’s Le Pen picks burkini-banning mayor as campaign director - France 24
Far-right leader Marine Le Pen on Saturday named the young politician David Rachline as the director of her presidential campaign, a risky choice who should appeal to party loyalists, while she reaches out to a broader audience.
Le Pen made the widely expected announcement during a speech to supporters in the Mediterranean city of Fréjus in an event that, by her own account, marked “the start of the mobilization for this presidential campaign”.

Rachline, 28, has been the mayor of Fréjus since April 2014 and the youngest member of France’s Senate since October of the same year. The leader of the anti-immigration National Front (FN) party described him as “a man who symbolizes youth, work, merit, loyalty and success”, as she made his campaign appointment official.
Since he took over as mayor of Fréjus he has made headlines for his opposition to the completion of a new mosque in the city and, this summer, for joining a handful of other officials who banned “burkinis”, or full-cover swimsuits used by some Muslim women.

Last month France’s Council of State ruled against the ban, saying it was at odds with basic civil liberties. A regional administrative court also overturned the anti-burkini decree in Fréjus.