Cross Contamination? Is this an issue for you?

[Forest Nymph]

Well if you look at it with one eye closed, squint a lot, and hold your head tilted, you can maybe see Kosher laws pertaining to meat and dairy as sensical.

But you are right, I have no respect for organized religion or it's rules and regulations. Well, I have no issues with the Ten Commandments or the Golden Rule. but after that, it pretty much just ends up as cherry-picking.

Well Lou you're usually not so stubbornly ignorant but I can see this topic emotionally upsets you, where as usually you're calm and removed.

Anyone who knows anything about traditional Abrahamic faiths knows that Torah and Koran explicitly promote animal welfare, and if you have the rationality to step back from modern times into 1000 BC and out of your own bias, you'd see this clearly.

I'm not saying kosher is 21st century animal rights, I said in my very first statement that it's a primitive form of science and animal rights. Being an atheist does not automatically make you smarter than a religious person.

From OU Kosher "Torah law, however, is most insistent about not inflicting needless pain on animals and in emphasizing humane treatment of all living creatures."

People of most religious traditions if followed closely including fasting, practice a level of restraint towards animal product consumption completely absent in modern secular commercial capitalism.

Are they vegans, no but they're still stairways above the typical mindless consumer.

 

[Lou]

Well Lou you're usually not so stubbornly ignorant but I can see this topic emotionally upsets you, where as usually you're calm and removed.

Anyone who knows anything about traditional Abrahamic faiths knows that Torah and Koran explicitly promote animal welfare, and if you have the rationality to step back from modern times into 1000 BC and out of your own bias, you'd see this clearly.

All that may be true, ALL I'm saying is that most of the laws pertaining being Kosher have little to nothing to do with animal rights.
Pastrami is Kosher. So is fish with scales, And so is Cow's milk. Putting a "stamp of approval" on those things is not consistent with Animal rights. And not eating milk at the same meal with meat is not only inconsistent with animal rights, IMHO, it defies common sense, too.

 

[Forest Nymph]

All that may be true, ALL I'm saying is that most of the laws pertaining being Kosher have little to nothing to do with animal rights.
Pastrami is Kosher. So is fish with scales, And so is Cow's milk. Putting a "stamp of approval" on those things is not consistent with Animal rights. And not eating milk at the same meal with meat is not only inconsistent with animal rights, IMHO, it defies common sense, too.

There have been entire books and podcasts written with evidence that the Abrahamic G-d intended people to either be vegan or vegetarian, including Adam and Eve's diet in the Garden and the future Paradise described in Isaiah. Historical evidence and academic translation also point to Jesus having been from a strict vegetarian sect of Nazerene Jews, which is why he was so hated by worldlier forms of Judaism Jesus and disciples considered to be corrupted.

You should read The Animals Lawsuit Against Humanity if you get a chance.

Native Americans have a similar approach to animal rights. In their beliefs animals have a right to be wild and uncaged and should be respected as equals or even superior teachers, eaten only when needed and with gratitude.

Similarly, early Jews must have seen the intelligence of pigs and cats and dogs, and sincerely thought kosher slaughter was the most humane thing 4000 years ago.

The Books of Enoch may have been removed from the official Canon with an agenda, seeing as that kashrut would be far different in a faith that said demons taught people to eat animals, along with teaching them seduction and war.

 

[Sax]

Well Lou you're usually not so stubbornly ignorant but I can see this topic emotionally upsets you, where as usually you're calm and removed.

You were smirking and swirling a goblet of wine when you typed that, weren't you?

 

[Lou]

There have been entire books and podcasts written with evidence that the Abrahamic G-d intended people to either be vegan or vegetarian, including Adam and Eve's diet in the Garden and the future Paradise described in Isaiah. Historical evidence and academic translation also point to Jesus having been from a strict vegetarian sect of Nazerene Jews, which is why he was so hated by worldlier forms of Judaism Jesus and disciples considered to be corrupted.

You should read The Animals Lawsuit Against Humanity if you get a chance.

Native Americans have a similar approach to animal rights. In their beliefs animals have a right to be wild and uncaged and should be respected as equals or even superior teachers, eaten only when needed and with gratitude.

Similarly, early Jews must have seen the intelligence of pigs and cats and dogs, and sincerely thought kosher slaughter was the most humane thing 4000 years ago.

The Books of Enoch may have been removed from the official Canon with an agenda, seeing as that kashrut would be far different in a faith that said demons taught people to eat animals, along with teaching them seduction and war.

I'm not arguing about any of that. We were originally talking about cross-contamination and I brought up kosher laws.

I even agreed with you that the rules against pork and shellfish may have been "early science".

But I don't think there is anything scientific about the milk and meat stuff. And I really think you are stretching it by saying that the milk and meat thing has to do with animal cruelty.
Like I said before, roast beef is kosher. Milk is kosher. but it's not kosher for the meat to touch the milk (even in your stomach).

 

[Forest Nymph]

You were smirking and swirling a goblet of wine when you typed that, weren't you?

Nope. I just find it intellectually dishonest when atheists pretend everything from religious history is unworthy of examination or comment. People in more primitive societies didn't know what we know, and also were so dependent on animals they didn't have the luxury of being vegan even if they were vegetarian or only ate other animals during special ritualistic conditions.

 

[Forest Nymph]

I'm not arguing about any of that. We were originally talking about cross-contamination and I brought up kosher laws.

I even agreed with you that the rules against pork and shellfish may have been "early science".

But I don't think there is anything scientific about the milk and meat stuff. And I really think you are stretching it by saying that the milk and meat thing has to do with animal cruelty.
Like I said before, roast beef is kosher. Milk is kosher. but it's not kosher for the meat to touch the milk (even in your stomach).

I'm not the only person who reads the milk and meat separation as an admonition against animal cruelty. There are multiple examples of this in the Torah, including Sabbath being for animals as well as humans, and criticisms of people who were cruel to domesticated agricultural animals.

 

[Nekodaiden]

Uh...on the original subject - if I know that a plant based patty is cooked on the same stove as meat and thus has not only bits of meat in it but also saturated fat, I would not be interested. So far when I've gotten PB options at places like BK (Hungry Jacks) and Subway, they microwave it.

 

[Forest Nymph]

I'm not arguing about any of that. We were originally talking about cross-contamination and I brought up kosher laws.

I even agreed with you that the rules against pork and shellfish may have been "early science".

But I don't think there is anything scientific about the milk and meat stuff. And I really think you are stretching it by saying that the milk and meat thing has to do with animal cruelty.
Like I said before, roast beef is kosher. Milk is kosher. but it's not kosher for the meat to touch the milk (even in your stomach).

Maybe no one ever explained it to you, but it's not animal rights like total abstention from animals, yet the exercise of mindfulness. That means that it is inherently sadistic to cook a baby animal in what should nourish him. In most ancient forms of animal rights, the expression is largely in the respecting of the animals perspective, limiting animal products, completely fasting from them during spiritual observances, and giving thanks for the animals. It was for all intents and purposes a mindfulness of animal life completely missing under industrial capitalist consumption of animals.

Academics suggest that the Nazerenes that historical Jesus belonged to were so vegetarian as to be almost vegan, as much as their circumstances realistically allowed. He kept insisting he was keeping faith more as it was intended than the hypocrites he saw around him.

Who knows what happened past the Enoch to Noah vegetarian family line since Enoch's books were set aside in favor of animal slaughter laws. Within those laws is a remnant of compassion and mindfulness, not just rudimentary science.

I think the problem is how mainstream Jews follow it now, not how it was originally playing out.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Uh...on the original subject - if I know that a plant based patty is cooked on the same stove as meat and thus has not only bits of meat in it but also saturated fat, I would not be interested. So far when I've gotten PB options at places like BK (Hungry Jacks) and Subway, they microwave it.

BK and Subway also do that in the US.

 

[Sax]

People in more primitive societies didn't know what we know

If only there was a source of wisdom which could have enlightened them.

 

[Forest Nymph]

If only there was a source of wisdom which could have enlightened them.

If you assume that earlier people were about as intelligent as they are now, and had good intentions to make sense of their environment, religion makes a lot more sense and as an added bonus you sound a lot less like a pompous ***.

 

[FlandersOD]

categorically i would have a problem with it.

 

[Lou]

I don't agree entirely with this author's viewpoint. But I always love a well thought out opinion.

Vegans Have Every Right to Demand a Clean Grill for Their Impossible Whoppers

They should do it loudly and proudly.

slate.com

 

[Forest Nymph]

I don't agree entirely with this author's viewpoint. But I always love a well thought out opinion.

Vegans Have Every Right to Demand a Clean Grill for Their Impossible Whoppers

They should do it loudly and proudly.

slate.com

This is really complicated for a few reasons.

1) The obvious being that Burger King is a trash hole of a fast food restaurant to begin with. I worked at a Wendy's for six months when I was younger, and you were lucky if they changed their fryer oil before it got gross, let alone cleaning a grill in the middle of a shift over and over. That's why McDonald's restaurants often smell bad when you simply walk past the outside, because workers are trained to leave nasty oil until it's absolutely unusable and things of that nature. Fast food is its own special hell and do vegans really want to support it (even if they support Beyond Burgers or Impossible Burgers in nicer restaurants or grocery stores)?

2) This will definitely reinforce the "privileged vegan doesn't care about people" stereotype. I got accused of this the other day in class for simply informing the group that almost half of earth's land is used for animal agriculture and that grain/soy is stolen from people in developing countries to be fed to "meat animals." I focused purely on the environment, never mentioned animal rights or animal testing or accused any particular individuals of anything, and someone STILL took it upon themselves to talk about Israeli soldiers in vegan boots killing Palestinians and to remark that vegans care more about people than animals, that veganism negates indigenous people in some way....these people are toxic. They're nasty, they're vicious, they're usually privileged middle class white people themselves, but they feel ceremoniously smug defending people's rights against eeeebbbil vegans. I don't know that this is a battle worth fighting at this stage in the game.

3) On the other hand, I see the author's point, I mean vegans and even vegetarians shouldn't have to experience cross-contamination while on a road trip, out with friends, or if they're too poor to afford a different meal, and it is something to challenge people with. Maybe.

 

[Linz2016]

Since going vegan/vegetarian, I can't stand the smell of the grease and fat that comes from most fast food restaurants, so the only one I use nowadays, is Subway, so BK's Impossible Whopper being cooked on a grill used for grill patties isn't going to be issue for me.

Personally, I find the fact that fast food outlets don't change their cooking oil on a regular basis to be a much bigger and more disgusting issue than cooking the impossible whopper on the same grill as used for beef patties.

My brother (not vegetarian, and not even remotely interested in going vegetarian) was standing behind someone in Subway, who asked for a Veggie Delight, and asked the staff member serving him to change her gloves. The employee refused, saying "she doesn't see why she should."

When he told me that, I said that, if that happened to me, after I'd made a polite request, I'd have put in a complaint to the company, and made sure to name the employee. But the reverse is also true - I've been known to ask for the name of an employee to ensure the company knows who I'd like to give credit to for better-than-average service, and/or because an employee has asked me if I'd like them to change their gloves.

 

[SapphireLightning]

Personally, I find the fact that fast food outlets don't change their cooking oil on a regular basis to be a much bigger and more disgusting issue than cooking the impossible whopper on the same grill as used for beef patties.

Yeah that oil can get really really gross! As far as the impossible burger, they will cook it off-grill if you ask. After eating a few of them, I have had enough vegan fast food burgers for a decade or two myself. Just had to make my showing too be like "yes, serve more food like this instead of meat"

 

[TofuRobot]

I consider standing in a room full of people eating dead animals as cross-contamination, and I definitely avoid that, so...