US Controversy over canceled sex talk at hacker convention

[das_nut]

I think it would depend on the author and the book. I'd call E. B. White an accomplished author, even though his most famous works is a writing guide and a few children's books.

I didn't know he wrote a writing guide

Strunk & White, "Elements of Style". I'm amazed you didn't know this. Strunk wrote it originally as a guide, but White was the person who revised it, brought it up to date, and was credited with the first edition that had wide release.

It was named one of Time's top 100 influential books.

I prefer the Chicago Manual of Style myself, but I'm willing to give credit where credit is due, and the EoS is one hell of a book for anyone who needs to write.

So, are you seriously claiming that Violet Blue is in the same category as E.B. White and/or Mark Twain?

No. But I don't think we should dismiss or minimize her work.

And I'm still wondering why the cancellation of her talk, titillating or not, is of such great concern to you....

Well, originally I was against the pressure brought on by the Ada Initiative to censor talks they disagree with. (Plus, the irony of pushing censorship among the hacker community seems to indicate that they aren't in touch at all with their target demographic.)

But since this thread has developed, I'm rather shocked at the behavior by some of the posters in this thread - assuming, for example, that a person who wants to speech at a hacker con about sex is running some sort of stag show, or is giving a guide on how to rape women.

 

[mlp]

Oh? So tell me, what happens when someone criticizes a sex educator by calling her a sex worker?

So, in your opinion, calling a sex educator a sex worker is an insult? How prudish of you.

 

[das_nut]

Oh? So tell me, what happens when someone criticizes a sex educator by calling her a sex worker?

So, in your opinion, calling a sex educator a sex worker is an insult? How prudish of you.

I believe that, in our society, "sex worker" tends to have negative connotations.

Do you disagree?

 

[mlp]

Strunk & White, "Elements of Style". I'm amazed you didn't know this. Strunk wrote it originally as a guide, but White was the person who revised it, brought it up to date, and was credited with the first edition that had wide release.

It was named one of Time's top 100 influential books.

I prefer the Chicago Manual of Style myself, but I'm willing to give credit where credit is due, and the EoS is one hell of a book for anyone who needs to write.

I used it to initially figure out how to do cites in papers when I was an undergrad - I just never connected the "White" to "E.B. White." I think I used it for the first couple of papers I wrote, and then I knew how to do them. Then, in grad school. I used a style manual specific to the profession to learn the proper form of various types of cites. It's been more than three decades since I so much as looked at a copy of Elements of Style.

No. But I don't think we should dismiss or minimize her work.

Well, that's your opinion. My opinion is that a lot of self important crap of all kinds is published, and I have no problem dismissing it.

Well, originally I was against the pressure brought on by the Ada Initiative to censor talks they disagree with. (Plus, the irony of pushing censorship among the hacker community seems to indicate that they aren't in touch at all with their target demographic.)

Well, that's why I'm rather enjoying the delicious irony of you championing someone who has a history of trying to censor criticisms of herself.

I believe that, in our society, "sex worker" tends to have negative connotations.

Do you disagree?

I can only speak for myself when I say that I my opinion of "sex workers" is not any different than my opinion of "sex educators" such as Ms. Blue. Actually, I would say that the former are probably a bit more honest about what they are doing.

 

[yally]

But since this thread has developed, I'm rather shocked at the behavior by some of the posters in this thread - assuming, for example, that a person who wants to speech at a hacker con about sex is running some sort of stag show, or is giving a guide on how to rape women.

Completely agree. I don't understand where all this vitriol for Violet Blue has come from.

 

[Spang]

This thread has certainly given me pause.

 

[das_nut]

I used it to initially figure out how to do cites in papers when I was an undergrad - I just never connected the "White" to "E.B. White."

If for nothing else, I'm glad you learned something today. And while this may sound condescending, it's not meant to be - isn't it cool that the same guy who wrote "Charlotte's Web" wrote one of the most widely used guides to writing?

Then, in grad school. I used a style manual specific to the profession to learn the proper form of various types of cites.

If you don't mind me asking, what sort of style manual?

That being asked, my main beef with EoS isn't the citations. It's just that my native dialect of English is close to the CMoS.

Well, that's your opinion. My opinion is that a lot of self important crap of all kinds is published, and I have no problem dismissing it.

But is her work, the stuff we're discussion (the digression into style manuals nonwithstanding) "self-important crap"?

Well, that's why I'm rather enjoying the delicious irony of you championing someone who has a history of trying to censor criticisms of herself.

Is she trying to censor criticisms, or is she trying to censor libel?

I can only speak for myself when I say that I my opinion of "sex workers" is not any different than my opinion of "sex educators" such as Ms. Blue. Actually, I would say that the former are probably a bit more honest about what they are doing.

You have no opinion on society's view of sex workers?

 

[mlp]

If for nothing else, I'm glad you learned something today. And while this may sound condescending, it's not meant to be - isn't it cool that the same guy who wrote "Charlotte's Web" wrote one of the most widely used guides to writing?

It's a bit of trivia - I'm not sure that it's particularly cool or even interesting, at least not so far as I'm concerned.

If you don't mind me asking, what sort of style manual?

The Bluebook.

That being asked, my main beef with EoS isn't the citations. It's just that my native dialect of English is close to the CMoS.

I don't think I ever used Elements of Style for anything other than figuring out forms of citation. I learned grammar, word usage and sentence construction in class and from doing lots or reading.

But is her work, the stuff we're discussion (the digression into style manuals nonwithstanding) "self-important crap"?

I don't know - I haven't read it, nor do I have any interest in reading it. From reading some reviews of her work this evening (which are mostly positive), it appears to be effective in getting people sexually aroused - that's primarily what the reviews focus on.

Is she trying to censor criticisms, or is she trying to censor libel?

If she thought she was being libelled, the proper recourse would have been a lawsuit for libel. Frankly, nothing I've read has come close to being libelous.

You have no opinion on society's view of sex workers?

I think it depends on what segment of society you're talking about, and what segment of sex workers. There are segments of society which glorify or romanticize sex workers, segments which consider them scum, etc. High priced call girls tend to be romanticized even by people who look down on prostitutes who ply their trade in alleys. Likewise, there are varying views of people who utilize sex workers - a high priced call girl is a status symbol for aman who uses her, a man who uses a street prostitute may be considered a stud or pathetic, depending largely on his own looks and circumstances, and a woman who uses a gigolo is almost universally considered pathetic. Money and/or looks determines status on both sides of the sex market.

 

[Pickle Juice]

But since this thread has developed, I'm rather shocked at the behavior by some of the posters in this thread - assuming, for example, that a person who wants to speech at a hacker con about sex is running some sort of stag show, or is giving a guide on how to rape women.

Completely agree. I don't understand where all this vitriol for Violet Blue has come from.

It's coming from the imaginations of Violet Blue's champions. I don't feel any vitriol for Ms Blue, I just find it laughable that the idea that a cancelled lecture on sex being given by a sex "educator" with her background amounts to censorship.

I do find Ms Blue's dismissal of the concerns of rape survivors as a narrow agenda disgusting though, and I would wonder at anyone who doesn't have a problem with her attitude toward the Ada Initiative and her public attempt to shame rape survivors for voicing their concerns over the possible effects of her talk.

For the record, I actually do not have a problem with sex workers. I only have a problem with sex workers who are trying to hide what they do because they have a poor opinion of sex workers and don't want to be lumped in with them.

What should be found shocking in this thread are the constant attempts by a few posters to completely twist what is being said to suit their own jaundiced views and further their own agendas. However, based on prior performance, that is to be expected.

 

[ledboots]

This is considered the way to introduce technology in 2013. http://www.businessinsider.com/meet-the-booth-babes-of-ces-2013-1?op=1

And a response: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/future-sex-what-booth-babes-say-about-tech

 

[das_nut]

But since this thread has developed, I'm rather shocked at the behavior by some of the posters in this thread - assuming, for example, that a person who wants to speech at a hacker con about sex is running some sort of stag show, or is giving a guide on how to rape women.

Completely agree. I don't understand where all this vitriol for Violet Blue has come from.

It's coming from the imaginations of Violet Blue's champions. I don't feel any vitriol for Ms Blue, I just find it laughable that the idea that a cancelled lecture on sex being given by a sex "educator" with her background amounts to censorship.

Why did you put quotes around "educator"? Do you not think that Violet Blue is a real sex educator?

I do find Ms Blue's dismissal of the concerns of rape survivors as a narrow agenda disgusting though

She was willing to move the talk to a smaller room, one with closed doors. Is that called "dismissal" to you? Because it appears to be compromise to me.

For the record, I actually do not have a problem with sex workers. I only have a problem with sex workers who are trying to hide what they do because they have a poor opinion of sex workers and don't want to be lumped in with them.

So people who write about sex are sex workers?

 

[Pickle Juice]

This is considered the way to introduce technology in 2013. http://www.businessinsider.com/meet-the-booth-babes-of-ces-2013-1?op=1

The so-called booth babes are well-versed in the products they're representing.

Wow, booth babes who can actually talk too! You'd think that would be a minus.

And a response: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/future-sex-what-booth-babes-say-about-tech

That's a good response. Thanks for posting.

 

[mlp]

This is considered the way to introduce technology in 2013. http://www.businessinsider.com/meet-the-booth-babes-of-ces-2013-1?op=1

And a response: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/future-sex-what-booth-babes-say-about-tech

Pretty sad, isn't it.

 

[Pickle Juice]

She was willing to move the talk to a smaller room, one with closed doors. Is that called "dismissal" to you? Because it appears to be compromise to me.

Again, I quote directly from Violet Blue's blog:

What Ada Initiative has done here is the opposite of harm reduction. In addition, I want to state for the record that the so-called “creeper cards” are also the opposite of harm reduction. Both things, while seemingly not directly related, create damage to the community and offer no solutions to the very issues they trade on in order to advance the narrow agendas of the people behind them.

Yes, calling the Ada Initiative's attempts to foster a less threatening atmosphere at a notoriously misogynistic event a "narrow agenda" is extremely dismissive. She is blaming the victims of harassment for being victims of harassment because they have not yet found an effective way to stop said harassment. I don't see how to make that any more clear.

 

[Spang]

I don't feel any vitriol for Ms Blue...

Nonsense.

You've been making **** up about Violet Blue this entire thread. In your first post, for example, you seem to suggest that a Violet Blue talk on harm reduction is better suited for a "private stag party". Did you happen to watch any of the harm reduction talk Ms. Blue gave at the C3 hacker con (I posted a YouTube video several pages back)? If that was the headlining act of a bachelor party, there would be many disappointed dudes.

In subsequent posts, you claim that Ms. Blue's harm reduction talks are not educational, that the purpose of her talks are public titillation and may lead to an increase in the number of incidences of harassment. Additionally, you assert that Ms. Blue isn't being honest when sharing content from the talk she would have given.

Ms. Blue has given harm reduction talks at hacker cons in the past. The idea that the BSides version would be less about harm reduction and more about sexually arrousing a room largely full of dudes is ridiculous.

 

[mlp]

Why did you put quotes around "educator"? Do you not think that Violet Blue is a real sex educator?

I know that this question is not directed at me, but my reaction to someone who chooses a stripper name to *educate* about sex is that their real purpose is not education. I would have the same reaction to someone with an teaching degree who changes her name to "Juicy Pink" before getting a job at the local high school to teach sex ed.

She was willing to move the talk to a smaller room, one with closed doors. Is that called "dismissal" to you? Because it appears to be compromise to me.

I think that PJ was talking about Blue's little self serving, publicity seeking postings after her talk was cancelled.

But to your question - let's say a NAMBLA member is scheduled to speak at a conference, and objections are raised because some of the attendees were molested as children. Is the NAMBLA member's willingness to move the talk to a smaller room, one with closed doors, a compromise, or is it a a dismissal of the concerns of the survivors of childhood rape?

So people who write about sex are sex workers?

See the first comment in my post. From the reviews of her work that I read yesterday evening, I gather that her how to manuals include little stories that describe in some detail how she puts those techniques into practice. Maybe you could tell us how writing a book whose primary effect (based on the reviews) is to give people good wanking off material is substantively different from doing a lap dance?

 

[Pickle Juice]

I don't feel any vitriol for Ms Blue...

Nonsense.

You've been making **** up about Violet Blue this entire thread. In your first post, for example, you seem to suggest that a Violet Blue talk on harm reduction is better suited for a "private stag party". Did you happen to watch any of the harm reduction talk Ms. Blue gave at the C3 hacker con (I posted a YouTube video several pages back)? If that was the headlining act of a bachelor party, there would be many disappointed dudes.

In subsequent posts, you claim that Ms. Blue's harm reduction talks are not educational, that the purpose of her talks are public titillation and may lead to an increase in the number of incidences of harassment. Additionally, you assert that Ms. Blue isn't being honest when sharing content from the talk she would have given.

Ms. Blue has given harm reduction talks at hacker cons in the past. The idea that the BSides version would be less about harm reduction and more about sexually arrousing a room largely full of dudes is ridiculous.

You have no sense of the facetious I guess, or of exaggeration for comic effect. I've gotten more laughter out of this whole thread than anything else.

 

[Spang]

I've gotten more laughter out of this whole thread than anything else.

You're welcome, I guess.

 

[mlp]

If for nothing else, I'm glad you learned something today.

I learn something pretty much every day.

And, in an attempt to assist you in your social skills, yes, that sentence does come across as very condescending.

 

[Pickle Juice]

I've gotten more laughter out of this whole thread than anything else.

You're welcome, I guess.

Don't take it personally. It's the idea of calling the cancellation of a lecture censorship that amused me. I'm not saying I am laughing at you.