Burning Mouth Syndrome? Opinions please.

[Sunny]

oh oh. I'm back with some nitpicking. I think everything you said is mostly right.

From what I understand from a lot of reading, is that only a half of a microgram (µg) can be absorbed at one time.

the entry point for B12 is sometimes described as a gateway. I'm pretty sure this is just a metaphor for something more complicated. And the gateway is only .5 µg wide. once the initial .5 µg goes thru the gateway closes and then it takes a few hours for it to open up again. So the rule of thumb is that your body can only absorb .5 µg per meal. After that initial .5 µg, only a small amount is absorbed. I can't remember but I think it's like one tenth of one percent.

Here is what Dr. Gregar says,

For adults under age 65, the easiest way to get B12 is to take at least one 2,000 mcg supplement each week or a daily dose of 50 mcg. Note that these doses are specific to cyanocobalamin, the preferred supplemental form of vitamin B12, as there is insufficient evidence to support the efficacy of the other forms, like methylcobalamin."​

​

Instead of taking B12 supplements, it is possible to get sufficient amounts from B12-fortified foods, but we would have to eat three servings a day of foods each providing at least 190 percent of the Daily Value (on the Nutrition Facts label), with each serving eaten at least four to six hours after the last (based on the new labeling mandated to start January 1, 2020—the target is 4.5 mcg three times a day). For B12-fortified nutritional yeast, for example, two teaspoons three times a day may suffice. For most of us, though, it would probably be cheaper and more convenient to just take a supplement. Our fellow great apes get all the B12 they need eating bugs, dirt, and feces, but I’d suggest supplements instead!​

Vitamin B12: The Latest Research | NutritionFacts.org

What, no feces??

 

[Sunny]

How about toothpaste? My mother had to switch to non-flouride, which wasn't easy to find! She was getting sores all around her lips. It happened kind suddenly, but when she quit the flouride she was fine. I don't recall if she had problems inside her mouth or not

I searched for a natural toothpaste when this all started and my problem was the opposite of yours, trying to find one with flouride. I did and have used it since but trying one without flouride is something I have not yet done. (sensitive teeth). I will give it a go. I am almost out of my usual one so it's a perfect time to try another. Thank you

 

[Lou]

I searched for a natural toothpaste when this all started and my problem was the opposite of yours, trying to find one with flouride. I did and have used it since but trying one without flouride is something I have not yet done. (sensitive teeth). I will give it a go. I am almost out of my usual one so it's a perfect time to try another. Thank you

Toms is pretty good - do you have that in the UK

There is also a new brand here in the US called Hello. Look in Amazon. They have a whole list

 

[silva]

Toms is pretty good - do you have that in the UK

There is also a new brand here in the US called Hello. Look in Amazon. They have a whole list

@Sunny had stated they had looked for one with flouride!
I found this interesting, and now wonder if my mother needed no flouride or no SLS?
There is a bunch of irritants in most toothpastes!

Natural Toothpaste - Your Complete 2022 Guide

Natural Toothpaste Has Never Been More Popular: Discover What (And What Not!) To Buy in this Guide to the Best in Fluoride Free, Organic & Natural Brushing

odylique.co.uk

 

[Lou]

Toms has one with Fluoride.
Presently I use Trader Joe's with Fluoride
I think Hello has Fluoride too

 

[bEt]

Well, if you do decide to drop the multi for a time as part of an elimination experiment, I hope you can find other supplements to get you what you need in the meantime. If you prefer to buy from Together Health, I noticed they offer a B complex, too, which is mostly nutritional yeast, and has a bit more of each B vitamin. You could even take two a day of the B complex if you wanted to, or split one capsule into two daily doses?

I noticed the two supplements you mentioned are both minimally packaged. Is that important to you?

And thank you for sharing what you heard from the company! That does give a more complete picture.

Am I right to assume the Lichen Planus, hypothyroid, and other things came up before you were eliminating animal products? If you have time to share, I'd be curious to hear about your journey with the health issues and your veganism too.

Burning Mouth Syndrome - Is there a toothpaste that will not burn my mouth?

 

[Sunny]

Well, if you do decide to drop the multi for a time as part of an elimination experiment, I hope you can find other supplements to get you what you need in the meantime. If you prefer to buy from Together Health, I noticed they offer a B complex, too, which is mostly nutritional yeast, and has a bit more of each B vitamin. You could even take two a day of the B complex if you wanted to, or split one capsule into two daily doses?

I noticed the two supplements you mentioned are both minimally packaged. Is that important to you?

And thank you for sharing what you heard from the company! That does give a more complete picture.

Am I right to assume the Lichen Planus, hypothyroid, and other things came up before you were eliminating animal products? If you have time to share, I'd be curious to hear about your journey with the health issues and your veganism too.

Burning Mouth Syndrome - Is there a toothpaste that will not burn my mouth?

Hi, It is important to me to do all I can for the environment and to live as naturally as possible. I try to use natural products and avoid plastic whenever I can. I prefer to buy organic foods but can only buy when affordable options are available.

I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism before choosing a vegan lifestyle but I am not sure about the autoimmune oral lichen planus or the BMS (if that is indeed what it is). I am going to contact the dentist to ask when I first came to see her about the issues. Both came on very gradually but I remember going to the dentist several times with gum pain and she kept sending me home saying there was absolutely nothing there. It was a long while after that she referred me to the hospital oral consultant. So I will have to do some investigating to find more detail about the dates.

I admit I have wondered myself, too, about which started first. My overall reason for posting originally was to find out if anyone else here had anything similar going on however no one has chimed in to say that they too have had the same thing which leads to believe it is not connected to something I am missing in my diet. BMS can be triggered, they think, by stress and I have been having a very stressful couple of years. I had hoped that as I got rid of the stress, the problem might ease off but as of yet, nope.

 

[Sunny]

Toms has one with Fluoride.
Presently I use Trader Joe's with Fluoride
I think Hello has Fluoride too

There are actually quite a few natural toothpastes with flouride. It just took some looking on my part I try to choose ones without plastic so last time I went for these. The price seems high but lasts for 3 months so not too bad.

 

[silva]

There are actually quite a few natural toothpastes with flouride. It just took some looking on my part I try to choose ones without plastic so last time I went for these. The price seems high but lasts for 3 months so not too bad.

But did you have the BMS before you started a flouride toothpaste?

 

[Sunny]

But did you have the BMS before you started a flouride toothpaste?

I have always used flouride toothpaste. I just went back through my purchase history to see if I had tried a flouride-free option (I have tried a lot of things during this time and sometimes forget!) and I see I did try a flouride-free toothpaste. If it had helped the problem I definitely would have bought it again so it must not have made any difference. The toothpaste was by Green People, so a very good one.

 

[Lou]

Tom's has been my go-to toothpaste for years. but lately I have been getting Trader Joe's cause it's cheaper.
Even Colgate has a new line of recyclable toothpaste tubes.

 

[Sunny]

Tom's has been my go-to toothpaste for years. but lately I have been getting Trader Joe's cause it's cheaper.
Even Colgate has a new line of recyclable toothpaste tubes.

I hope you won't mind if I chime in about "recyclable" tubes- just want to share info in case you may not be aware.

 

[bEt]

My overall reason for posting originally was to find out if anyone else here had anything similar going on however no one has chimed in to say that they too have had the same thing which leads to believe it is not connected to something I am missing in my diet. BMS can be triggered, they think, by stress and I have been having a very stressful couple of years. I had hoped that as I got rid of the stress, the problem might ease off but as of yet, nope.

Yeah, BMS is not a 'vegan' thing. Wouldn't that be weird, if the joke was that you could spot a vegan 'cause they're the one with the lidocaine?
I was asking about the background for your vegan journey mostly out of nosiness, trying to understand where you are coming from, philosophy-wise. But I know that's not really a fair thing to ask, since I'm not sure I could explain my own journey and views.

Anyway,
I looked at a BMS support thread and read about a rare virus diagnosed by a naturopath and about someone with an allergy to apples that shows up 12-24 hours after the apple consumption. Crazy!

Burning Mouth Syndrome - I've had BMS for seven years. Has anyone had this go away on its own?

In terms of the toothpaste question, I have some personal experience with skipping toothpaste altogether. For a time I was doing a LOT of petsitting, and I eventually decided that as long as I had a toothbrush at other people's houses, I didn't really need the toothpaste. I haven't had a cavity in a couple of decades, so I don't think it did any great harm.

I'm with you on the stress thing. Stress and genes I think account for a lot, disease-wise, but that's just my opinion.

So I think where we may diverge a bit is I'm a huge fan of supplements, and come to the table with a preconceived notion that sometimes, because of genes and/or circumstance, we may need more than the average of some things. I'm that old-school auntie-type who'll tell you to take vitamin C if you have a cold.

 

[Sunny]

Yeah, BMS is not a 'vegan' thing. Wouldn't that be weird, if the joke was that you could spot a vegan 'cause they're the one with the lidocaine?
I was asking about the background for your vegan journey mostly out of nosiness, trying to understand where you are coming from, philosophy-wise. But I know that's not really a fair thing to ask, since I'm not sure I could explain my own journey and views.

Anyway,
I looked at a BMS support thread and read about a rare virus diagnosed by a naturopath and about someone with an allergy to apples that shows up 12-24 hours after the apple consumption. Crazy!

Burning Mouth Syndrome - I've had BMS for seven years. Has anyone had this go away on its own?

In terms of the toothpaste question, I have some personal experience with skipping toothpaste altogether. For a time I was doing a LOT of petsitting, and I eventually decided that as long as I had a toothbrush at other people's houses, I didn't really need the toothpaste. I haven't had a cavity in a couple of decades, so I don't think it did any great harm.

I'm with you on the stress thing. Stress and genes I think account for a lot, disease-wise, but that's just my opinion.

So I think where we may diverge a bit is I'm a huge fan of supplements, and come to the table with a preconceived notion that sometimes, because of genes and/or circumstance, we may need more than the average of some things. I'm that old-school auntie-type who'll tell you to take vitamin C if you have a cold.

I didn't really think it could be an overall "vegan thing" so much as perhaps just something a vegan could miss out on in their diet by laziness or lack of knowledge. I, too, have thought sometimes that I might not even need toothpaste and it sounds like you have done amazingly without it. I am not sure, having the oral lichen planus, if it would be a good option for me but I am certainly willing to try- who knows, it might even ease the symptoms Regarding supplements, did I give the impression I was anti-supplements? I didn't mean to. I think it is better to get the vits and mins from food if possible but take supplements myself, before and after animal products. I may just have to start taking a much higher B12 but I am waiting to see what the blood tests results show- if there is anything at all suggesting a low b12.

 

[bEt]

Sorry, I'm not sure why I got the impression that you were a little cautious with the supplement use. I sometimes get concerned about the possibility of taking too much in the way of supplements (especially since symptoms of toxicity for a lot of things (B6 for example) are often the same as symptoms of deficiency). Honestly, I've gone through different phases in my views on supplements. Does that sound contradictory, given all my lecturing? I'm full of contradictions! Overall, I've come to think it can be safe and even beneficial to get more (even much more) than the RDA of some things, sometimes.

That kind of pain sounds very difficult to live with. Reading about it makes me grateful I am not in the same boat with those people on the drugs.com thread. Makes me stop and count my blessings.

 

[bEt]

I think I remember somewhere in this thread there was some mention of CRP. Looking at Jack Norris's post on choline, he talks about not only choline but betaine too, and cites an article that mentions CRP levels.

Choline – Vegan Health

"in a cross-sectional study from Greece, subjects with choline intakes above 310 mg had lower markers of inflammation (C-reactive protein, interleukin-6, and tumor necrosis factor), than those consuming less than 250 mg (Detopoulou, 2008)"

I think it's interesting that the difference here is really small, less than a tenth of a gram, I believe, if I understand the numbers correctly. The improvement in CRP levels, however, was fairly substantial, from my point of view:

"22% lower concentrations of C-reactive protein"

1/2 C natto (88g) has 50mg choline
1 tsp soy lecithin granules have 73mg choline, if the information I found in different websites and if my rough math is correct

I think it's been pointed out on other threads that too much choline is at least as harmful as too little. So like with so many other things, moderation is key.

That same article that Jack Norris references also says,
"Similarly, participants who consumed >360 mg/d of betaine had, on average, 10% lower concentrations of homocysteine (P < 0.01), 19% lower concentrations of C-reactive protein"

Which also sounds very positive.

Spinach has more betaine by far than most other commonly consumed food.

1C cooked spinach has 160mg betaine

sweet potatoes also have a comparatively high amount:
1 medium sweet potato has 39mg betaine

Supplemental trimethylglycine (TMG or betaine anhydrous) may be extracted from sugar beets. 1/8 of a teaspoon weighs in at 375mg.

 

[Sunny]

I think I remember somewhere in this thread there was some mention of CRP. Looking at Jack Norris's post on choline, he talks about not only choline but betaine too, and cites an article that mentions CRP levels.

Choline – Vegan Health

"in a cross-sectional study from Greece, subjects with choline intakes above 310 mg had lower markers of inflammation (C-reactive protein, interleukin-6, and tumor necrosis factor), than those consuming less than 250 mg (Detopoulou, 2008)"

I think it's interesting that the difference here is really small, less than a tenth of a gram, I believe, if I understand the numbers correctly. The improvement in CRP levels, however, was fairly substantial, from my point of view:

"22% lower concentrations of C-reactive protein"

1/2 C natto (88g) has 50mg choline
1 tsp soy lecithin granules have 73mg choline, if the information I found in different websites and if my rough math is correct

I think it's been pointed out on other threads that too much choline is at least as harmful as too little. So like with so many other things, moderation is key.

That same article that Jack Norris references also says,
"Similarly, participants who consumed >360 mg/d of betaine had, on average, 10% lower concentrations of homocysteine (P < 0.01), 19% lower concentrations of C-reactive protein"

Which also sounds very positive.

Spinach has more betaine by far than most other commonly consumed food.

1C cooked spinach has 160mg betaine

sweet potatoes also have a comparatively high amount:
1 medium sweet potato has 39mg betaine

Supplemental trimethylglycine (TMG or betaine anhydrous) may be extracted from sugar beets. 1/8 of a teaspoon weighs in at 375mg.

Thank you for this information. I am trying to lose weight, hence not eating so much and therefore could be low in Choline.

 

[bEt]

I find I'm usually a bit low, too, when I use a nutrient tracking website.

I use some supplemental betaine in the morning, which can take the place of some of our choline needs, and as someone who has always lived with some depression and anxiety (probably related at least in part to genetics), I find it helps my mood immensely. I also love foods that have betaine in them such as beets, molasses, beet greens.
I apologize for before, for inventing disagreement where there was none. I can be clumsy with words, insensitive, inconsiderate, and I can miss a lot of what other people are saying--or read into things and hear something that is not really said. I don't mean to be like that, but sometimes I am.

 

[Sunny]

I find I'm usually a bit low, too, when I use a nutrient tracking website.

I use some supplemental betaine in the morning, which can take the place of some of our choline needs, and as someone who has always lived with some depression and anxiety (probably related at least in part to genetics), I find it helps my mood immensely. I also love foods that have betaine in them such as beets, molasses, beet greens.
I apologize for before, for inventing disagreement where there was none. I can be clumsy with words, insensitive, inconsiderate, and I can miss a lot of what other people are saying--or read into things and hear something that is not really said. I don't mean to be like that, but sometimes I am.

I have been looking through past days on Cronometer and see my Choline intake is pretty good. It seems to be in quite a lot of things that I was not aware of.

Something I have noticed recently, though it is not a cure, is that I broke open one of my Omega 3 capsules and put the oil on the painful area of my tongue. It actually soothed it. I had previously read of a lady having some success with using vitamin E on her tongue so thought I would give the omega a try. I have been using it for a few days and it does help a bit. So it's another thing on my list of options to investigate more

Regarding apologies, you have no reason to apologise It is not always easy to communicate online in particular - but I didn't take anything you said as "inventing disagreement". Please don't think twice about it.

 

[bEt]

That's wonderful!!! I hope the capsules continue to help. That was a really good idea.
And thank you for setting my mind at ease that your feelings weren't hurt; it is too easy to do that unintentionally, especially online as you say.