Baffled about this forum

[Ruthie]

Hi everyone ,
I'm feeling a bit baffled by this forum . I joined because l wanted to connect to other vegans .
However , firstly it seems that animaI -eaters are members too ( flexitarian ? This is just a fancy word for omnivore , or the average meat-eater out there - so why are they wanting to be in this forum ?)
Secondly , there seems to be debate about what actually is "vegan" .. Er ... come on - it's pretty simple . A vegan is someone who doesn't knowingly consume or use animal products .. There's no grey area there . It just is ..

So I'm baffled by the "can eggs be vegan ? " thread - of course they can't be ..
And if I delve further into other threads , similar things come up . Lots of people who think we need to have "pretend -meat" labels on food items .. Why do we have to go by the "standard" of meat-eating ? Why can't we just have our own food , labelled exactly as it is?

Surely if you feel you have to eat pretend-meat , you must be feeling like you must fit in ? Surely this is a sign of not feeling confident in your difference ?

Why are we bending ourselves into conforming ? Because to me , that is what pretend-meat labels are - they are conforming to the dead-animal labels that the average person uses .
I love people who are different from average and embrace that . People who don't wish to travel the same old worn road and who live by their own core-values and ethics . People who are okay with not conforming to what they don't agree with .

I love people who walk the path of their own hearts and don't bend themselves to fit in with what passes as "normal" ..

Can we just embrace our veganism without all of the doubts and conforming behaviour and attitudes ?

Thank you for the space to express this ,
Ruthie

 

[KLS52]

Rule #1 of the forum says you don't have to be vegan to be a member but there can be no promoting of non veganism. I guess the way to get around that would be to try and change the definition. For me personally I agree with your take on that. Vegan is vegan. No need to water it down and I've expressed that in the other thread.

We don't need to conform in general. But pretend meat labels don't bother me. I think mostly they help people, who might be struggling, transition.

I'm ok with non vegans being here if they are looking for support and information on how to change their current lifestyle. I myself do not use the vegan label anymore because of certain concessions I make when eating out or when vegan items are unavailable to me. I will eat vegetarian bread/burgers that are not vegan. But this is just a repeat of what I've stated in the other thread.

I'm not sure where this forum is headed with Second Summer gone. I only know I have strong emotional connections to several members here and I hope it continues.

 

[shyvas]

It was decided a few years ago that Veggie Views (before the merger with Vegan Forum) would allow omnis to join, so that as a forum we could educate and promote veganism. However, it has never been permitted to promote a lifestyle other than a vegan one.

Eggs can never be considered as vegan as they belong to the chickens. Vegans simply do not consume them. I simply believe that some members like to go into depth and discuss themes that are controversial. As long as they abide by the rules, this is allowed as we don't over moderate on this forum.

I also never call a plant based protein dish with an animal name. I'm not trying to duplicate the taste of flesh when cooking. I also believe that it sends out the wrong message to omnis who think that we are all secretly dying to eat flesh.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

it seems that animaI -eaters are members too ( flexitarian ? This is just a fancy word for omnivore , or the average meat-eater out there - so why are they wanting to be in this forum ?)

There are not many meat eaters on this forum or if they are at any rate they keep quiet about it.

They are likely on the forum because they are curious about plant based food even though they won't ever be vegan, and perhaps want to incorporate more into their diet. Or they are considering transitioning to veganism. Or they are trolling.

I think we should allow them on the forum because shutting the door to them makes it less likely they will eventually go vegan while allowing them will help them transition. Of course, this does mean that you will inevitably get some trolling, but once people are being argumentative and slow to transition we can ignore them or moderators can ban them.

Exactly when to ignore/ban such a poster depends on whether your priority is a place for vegans to hang out (meaning you would be less tolerant) or whether you think we should be aiming to help animals (in which case we could be a bit more tolerant).

There are vegans on this forum that used to eat meat.

I myself came to this forum I think it was (or a similar one) and asked people to cross check my pro-meat arguments, and not long after that stopped eating meat forever.

Surely if you feel you have to eat pretend-meat , you must be feeling like you must fit in ? Surely this is a sign of not feeling confident in your difference ?

Why are we bending ourselves into conforming ? Because to me , that is what pretend-meat labels are - they are conforming to the dead-animal labels that the average person uses .

I think about we should do what is the best thing to help reduce animal suffering and do that. My view is that having vegan burgers makes veganism more attractive. Getting people to change from one burger to another that tastes and costs the same (more or less) is less of a change than getting them to eat a quinoa bowl (for example) and therefore more likely to happen. Therefore, these burgers help to reduce animal suffering.

The labelling of them of "burger", "hot dog" "chicken" etc is also good, since it seems normal, and makes the products more attractive. If they are forced to some up with alternative names like logs or patties, it will seem unappetizing, less people will eat them, and animals will suffer more.

The majority of these foods are eaten by none vegans where they do reduce suffering relative to the alternative of eating meat.

I do actually eat these things myself and the honest reason is convenience. If I could click my fingers and make the quinoa bowl appear, I would mostly do that instead, but these convenience foods can be prepared while I carry on working while they cook.

 

[Ahimsa24/7]

How far one needs to go to classify one's self as a "vegan" is a legitimate question.

Considering this -

5 Surprising Things That Have Cow Parts in Them

Image: Dudarev Mikhail/Shutterstock So, you're a vegan and you're mad that you can't drink Starbucks' Pumpkin Spice Latte. Well, maybe you want to skip this post because your day ain't going to get much better. You see, almost *everything* in the world contains something made from animal parts...

www.neatorama.com

I suddenly don't qualify as a vegan anymore, despite 11 years of not eating or wearing anything that is stolen from an animal.

Unless you're building your own house from scratch, good luck being certain that you have vegan drywall. Unless you paint every inch of your house yourself, good luck being certain you don't have animal product in your paint.

 

[1956]

How far one needs to go to classify one's self as a "vegan" is a legitimate question.

Considering this -

5 Surprising Things That Have Cow Parts in Them

Image: Dudarev Mikhail/Shutterstock So, you're a vegan and you're mad that you can't drink Starbucks' Pumpkin Spice Latte. Well, maybe you want to skip this post because your day ain't going to get much better. You see, almost *everything* in the world contains something made from animal parts...

www.neatorama.com

I suddenly don't qualify as a vegan anymore, despite 11 years of not eating or wearing anything that is stolen from an animal.

Unless you're building your own house from scratch, good luck being certain that you have vegan drywall. Unless you paint every inch of your house yourself, good luck being certain you don't have animal product in your paint.

In my view there is a Big difference between caving in to having a Starbucks pumpkin spice latte and Most of the non Vegan everyday stuff which is a part of our lives…
It is useful to know that Many of the products in our lives are not Vegan, however, Most of those kinds of things are not things that we have much control of in our lives - with the exception of sugar which is possible to find out if it’s Vegan or not…
To me the article sounded as if it was more anti Vegan than trying to be helpful!
I’m pretty sure that even the most staunch Vegan would consider that your lifestyle @Ahimsa24/7 is Most definitely a Vegan lifestyle!

 

[Graeme M]

I suppose that given I posed the question about eggs, I should add something. As far as I know, this is one of the few vegan forums on the Internet, at least in the old school meaning of an internet forum. What dominates now are things like Reddit, Quora, Facebook, X and so on. I joined it ages ago because I like the easier to follow format of conversations and because it had a "philosophy" forum, which I took to mean discussing the philosophy and ethics that drive veganism. And that's what I've done here.

I think maybe it depends on what the forum is meant to be. If it's not meant to enable robust and deep conversations about the ethics and their application and how to advocate better, then I'm not very much interested. Really, I've learned a lot here over the years just because of the kinds of conversations the OP has complained about. But maybe that's just me?

And I still think those eggs are vegan-friendly....

 

[Jamie in Chile]

How far one needs to go to classify one's self as a "vegan" is a legitimate question.

Considering this -

5 Surprising Things That Have Cow Parts in Them

Image: Dudarev Mikhail/Shutterstock So, you're a vegan and you're mad that you can't drink Starbucks' Pumpkin Spice Latte. Well, maybe you want to skip this post because your day ain't going to get much better. You see, almost *everything* in the world contains something made from animal parts...

www.neatorama.com

I suddenly don't qualify as a vegan anymore, despite 11 years of not eating or wearing anything that is stolen from an animal.

Unless you're building your own house from scratch, good luck being certain that you have vegan drywall. Unless you paint every inch of your house yourself, good luck being certain you don't have animal product in your paint.

Car tyres, paint, asphalt and drywall may not be vegan but you're allowed to use them and still be vegan. The level of strictness for non-food items is lower. I mean, if you are the one responsible for paving the road yourself maybe you should order vegan products but what are we saying people are no longer vegan if they've driven down a road? There would be no vegans left. Although I did have a laugh at the thought of someone walking in the mud by the side of the road to maintain their vegan status (sorry). Come on, you are still a vegan.

On the one hand you've got people disqualifying themselves from being vegan because of a medicine, and on the other hand you've got people claiming vegan status and then eating fish and cheese from time to time.

 

[Ahimsa24/7]

Car tyres, pain, asphalt and drywall may not be vegan but you're allowed to use them and still be vegan.

Who says?



I have a 2007 car with 258,000 miles on it that I'd love to replace with the 2025 equivalent. I haven't, because the leather steering wheel that was optional in 2007 is standard in 2025. I thought of that when I bought the car in 2007 (I had to buy the base model, which also did not have AC), but I didn't think about the tires, or the paint, or what kind of glue was used in its assembly. So I drew the line where I was comfortable (I don't want my hands on a murdered animal's hide every time I drive, but animal product in the tires never crossed my mind), but my point is that everyone's line is a tad different. So to return to the OP's topic, I don't think discussion over what's vegan and what's not, and what's reasonable in the real world and what's not, is "baffling". There is not a clear line. Similarly, I have debated with myself long and hard over feeding my cats animal products or "unnatural" vegan food. At this very moment they are on a half and half diet, which perfectly captures my inability to feel fully comfortable going in either direction.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

For asphalt and drywall, I am pretty sure the majority of vegans would accept the use of existing products in roads and houses already built, based on discussions I've read and participated in over the years. If you really want to confirm that you can try doing a survey of vegans on here or elsewhere.

I agree with you on leather.

On tyres, I just googled it and it looks like the strong majority of tyres are not vegan but there are some vegan tyres; Michelin is coming up in search results. Could you ask the dealer if they can replace the standard tyre on the car you want with a vegan tyre before selling it. If they say no, you reply "that's a shame, I would have bought the car otherwise" and this will promote more vegan alternatives in future.

Another option is to buy the car but sell the tyres as new immediately and then replace them with vegan ones. This will likely replace someone else's new purchase meaning that you will not have caused any/much aniaml suffering by buying the car. Of course, this only works if there really is a vegan option available.

Of course, either option only works if you are willing to ignore the animal suffering in glue or paint, since there's little chance they will be able to modify that for you.

If you're not, you could stick with second hand cars and perhaps consider that buying something second hand doesn't cause further suffering.

I checked with the google AI and Chat GPT and it looks like 1-3% of a tyre's weight is stearic acid. That is not insignificant given the size of the tyre, so hard to dismiss this as negligible suffering.

Also, chat GPT tells me that stearic acid comes from tallow which is sold rather than given away by the slaughterhouses. If that's true, it's providing some modest financial incentive for factory farming.

Also air pollution and climate change kill a lot of animals, and electric cars cause much less of both, so that's another factor to consider.

Or maybe we're just over thinking it.

So can you be a vegan and use non-vegan tyres? I think it comes down to the "as far as is possible and practicable" qualification in some of the definitions and how you interpret it. If every tyre is not vegan, it seems OK to use a non-vegan tyre. However, if the dealer has a vegan option available (not likely), you should choose it. If it is possible to get a vegan tyre, but it comes down to tremendous extra hassle to sort it out, then you can perhaps decide for yourself what counts as practical in trying to meet that goal.

I confess that I didn't even think about this when I bought a new set of Kumho tyres a month ago so good on you for at least thinking about it.

 

[Ahimsa24/7]

I think we're very much in agreement. We do what we feel we can in a way we think is reasonable and livable. I think most everyone (everyone?) on this forum looks at Jain monks (and check them out if you haven't already) and says, "I would never, ever take it that far".

 

[Lou]

Can we just embrace our veganism without all of the doubts and conforming behaviour and attitudes ?

you already got a lot of good explanations about how people perceive, use, and appreciate this forum. But I would like to address the above question.

I believe that our values, beliefs, ethics, morals, philosophy Need to be examined. At least time to time. Socrates said it like this, "The unexamined life is not worth living". (look it up - the context is enlightening )

Hearing other points of view, having our beliefs challenged, exploring other people's ideas... these are all worthwhile endeavors. Sharpens our wit, increases our knowledge base, expands our horizons

if all we did was have conversations with people who feel exactly like we do then we are operating in an echo chamber.

 

[1956]

you already got a lot of good explanations about how people perceive, use, and appreciate this forum. But I would like to address the above question.

I believe that our values, beliefs, ethics, morals, philosophy Need to be examined. At least time to time. Socrates said it like this, "The unexamined life is not worth living". (look it up - the context is enlightening )

Hearing other points of view, having our beliefs challenged, exploring other people's ideas... these are all worthwhile endeavors. Sharpens our wit, increases our knowledge base, expands our horizons

if all we did was have conversations with people who feel exactly like we do then we are operating in an echo chamber.

Hmm, I think that I might agree with you @Lou on not operating in an echo chamber, however, I Certainly don’t Need my belief in being Vegan challenged! Some things Are either Right or Wrong - as far as Morals are concerned… Is there any Need to question wether Rape or Racism is Wrong?

Being “baffled” as @Ruthie was by the thread “Can eating eggs be vegan-friendly?” is completely Understandable to me!
Especially since it was posted and claimed to be vegan-friendly by someone whose status is marked as Vegan!
For someone who is Vegan and is new to this forum I think that this would be Shocking!

Aside from the Reddit Vegan sub forum I haven’t seen any other Vegan forums… I consider myself lucky that in Cork city which is an hour’s bus ride away from my town there is a Vegan community which I am part of… Many people are not so fortunate and connecting with this Veganforum might be their Only way of connecting with other Vegans - therefore having conversations with people who feel Exactly like they feel might be the Best way for some people to stay Vegan!

 

[Ruthie]

you already got a lot of good explanations about how people perceive, use, and appreciate this forum. But I would like to address the above question.

I believe that our values, beliefs, ethics, morals, philosophy Need to be examined. At least time to time. Socrates said it like this, "The unexamined life is not worth living". (look it up - the context is enlightening )

Hearing other points of view, having our beliefs challenged, exploring other people's ideas... these are all worthwhile endeavors. Sharpens our wit, increases our knowledge base, expands our horizons

if all we did was have conversations with people who feel exactly like we do then we are operating in an echo chamber.

Lou - l am 65 years old and have been a vegan for 48 years .. I have had gazillions of conversations with non-vegans about veganism .. I have heard decades of other points of view , explored other ideas , been challenged , insulted , questioned , ridiculed etc... etc .. etc .. My ethical core values began when l was a child , and they have never wavered , even though it has been examined , thoroughly , by me and others .. To assume my life is "unexamined " ( Socrates) is unwise .. Assumptions in general are unwise , but this one's a beauty ..!

So - thank you , but l have already had " my wit sharpened , my knowledge base increased and my horizons expanded .."

You don't know me , so it would be best not to assume anything about me(except my veganism) - it would be better to ask me first .
Ruthie

 

[Ruthie]

I think we're very much in agreement. We do what we feel we can in a way we think is reasonable and livable. I think most everyone (everyone?) on this forum looks at Jain monks (and check them out if you haven't already) and says, "I would never, ever take it that far".

Hi - yes , Jainists are extreme . I admire them but l think they are kidding themselves . For example they sweep the path in front of them as they walk , so as not to step on tiny beings .. However , I'm fairly certain that the very act of sweeping would harm or kill tiny insects etc..
Having said that , I love their intentions .
Ruthie

 

[LoreD]

The only requirement for being vegan is that we don't knowingly consume or use products from animals. It doesn't matter whether it is a product that mimics an animal product. I use soymilk and, occasionally, have a fake burger or sausage. I really love MorningStar corndogs. I like cornbread and blueberry muffins, but I don't like the egg replacement, so I just bought some Just Egg to see if it works better.

The only thing I care about is reducing animal suffering. I applaud the Reductionists, and hope that they will eventually reduce their consumption to zero.

 

[g0rph]

Hi everyone ,
I'm feeling a bit baffled by this forum . I joined because l wanted to connect to other vegans .
However , firstly it seems that animaI -eaters are members too ( flexitarian ? This is just a fancy word for omnivore , or the average meat-eater out there - so why are they wanting to be in this forum ?)
Secondly , there seems to be debate about what actually is "vegan" .. Er ... come on - it's pretty simple . A vegan is someone who doesn't knowingly consume or use animal products .. There's no grey area there . It just is ..

So I'm baffled by the "can eggs be vegan ? " thread - of course they can't be ..
And if I delve further into other threads , similar things come up . Lots of people who think we need to have "pretend -meat" labels on food items .. Why do we have to go by the "standard" of meat-eating ? Why can't we just have our own food , labelled exactly as it is?

Surely if you feel you have to eat pretend-meat , you must be feeling like you must fit in ? Surely this is a sign of not feeling confident in your difference ?

Why are we bending ourselves into conforming ? Because to me , that is what pretend-meat labels are - they are conforming to the dead-animal labels that the average person uses .
I love people who are different from average and embrace that . People who don't wish to travel the same old worn road and who live by their own core-values and ethics . People who are okay with not conforming to what they don't agree with .

I love people who walk the path of their own hearts and don't bend themselves to fit in with what passes as "normal" ..

Can we just embrace our veganism without all of the doubts and conforming behaviour and attitudes ?

Thank you for the space to express this ,
Ruthie

1. Please turn off BOLD. It's extremely large and quiet annoying.
2. Welcome.
3. This is a proper-ish discussion forum. You may be a member of /r/vegan. or /r/vegancirclejerk.
The former is very mixed group, but ends up with vegans attacking other (almost vegans) about nonsense. The latter is mainly a bunch of unhinged psychopaths who give veganism the loony label...and probably put people off veganism.
4. I personally don't use the vegan label here as I don't 100% agree with it. But I don't knowingly eat, wear or use any animal products...Ask me if you are interested. I really don't want to repeat myself here if it isn't necessary.

But in the end, yes, there are vegetarians, and possibly flexitarians. i.e. People who are making a difference, even if you (and I) don't think it goes far enough.

Either way... Discuss, Engage, Enjoy.

 

[Ruthie]

1. Please turn off BOLD. It's extremely large and quiet annoying.
2. Welcome.
3. This is a proper-ish discussion forum. You may be a member of /r/vegan. or /r/vegancirclejerk.
The former is very mixed group, but ends up with vegans attacking other (almost vegans) about nonsense. The latter is mainly a bunch of unhinged psychopaths who give veganism the loony label...and probably put people off veganism.
4. I personally don't use the vegan label here as I don't 100% agree with it. But I don't knowingly eat, wear or use any animal products...Ask me if you are interested. I really don't want to repeat myself here if it isn't necessary.

But in the end, yes, there are vegetarians, and possibly flexitarians. i.e. People who are making a difference, even if you (and I) don't think it goes far enough.

Either way... Discuss, Engage, Enjoy.

Hello Gorph ,
the very reason l left another vegan forum a few years back was because some vegans were attacking other vegans . Ridiculous nonsense .
I have never been a member of those vegan sites you mentioned . I'm in Tasmania , Australia and l've never heard of them .
As l said to Lou ( above somewhere ) l am 65 and have been a vegan long before most people knew what that meant . I am a vegan purely because l love and respect animals and my inner core ethical values are summed up by this " Treat all other beings the way you wish to be treated " .
It's really simple .. No need to discuss .. A "flexitarian" is really just an omnivore - l can talk to omnivores ( if l wish to ) anywhere , anytime , anyplace .
I choose to come in to this forum to connect with other vegans , because they are thin on the ground where we live .
Also - l don't see how an omnivore is "making a difference " - they are just the average human out there - there are billions of them - and as far as my eyes see , l can't see them helping the planet or animals much ! ( oh - am l allowed to use an exclamation mark ? I'm not allowed to use bold , apparently - so l'm just checking )
And no - l'm not asking re you not being 100% vegan .. Not interested . I don't actually like your tone . In fact , it feels a bit like you are attacking me .
But that must be okay , because as you say , you are not actually a vegan . Apparently . So it's not a vegan attacking a vegan .

If you are detecting sarcasm in my post , you would be correct . If you are detecting annoyance , you would be correct again .

Goodbye

 

[g0rph]

Hello Gorph ,
the very reason l left another vegan forum a few years back was because some vegans were attacking other vegans . Ridiculous nonsense .
I have never been a member of those vegan sites you mentioned . I'm in Tasmania , Australia and l've never heard of them .
As l said to Lou ( above somewhere ) l am 65 and have been a vegan long before most people knew what that meant . I am a vegan purely because l love and respect animals and my inner core ethical values are summed up by this " Treat all other beings the way you wish to be treated " .
It's really simple .. No need to discuss .. A "flexitarian" is really just an omnivore - l can talk to omnivores ( if l wish to ) anywhere , anytime , anyplace .
I choose to come in to this forum to connect with other vegans , because they are thin on the ground where we live .
Also - l don't see how an omnivore is "making a difference " - they are just the average human out there - there are billions of them - and as far as my eyes see , l can't see them helping the planet or animals much ! ( oh - am l allowed to use an exclamation mark ? I'm not allowed to use bold , apparently - so l'm just checking )
And no - l'm not asking re you not being 100% vegan .. Not interested . I don't actually like your tone . In fact , it feels a bit like you are attacking me .
But that must be okay , because as you say , you are not actually a vegan . Apparently . So it's not a vegan attacking a vegan .

If you are detecting sarcasm in my post , you would be correct . If you are detecting annoyance , you would be correct again .

Goodbye

So you do not wish to discuss?
I mean it's fine.
But if my tone is off, I apologise. It was probably the bold writing (for the whole post) that set me off. Sorry.
I am definitely not attacking you.

And yes, a flexitarian is an omnivore, as are we all.
Whether we choose to use animal products is a then a choice.
And whilst I don't agree with the flexitarian stance, it is certainly better than most of the population.
When I transitioned, I tried it myself, but found it was impossible. I ate some non-vegan food and felt extremely sad.
So went completely cold tofurkey!

And to all intents and purposes I am vegan. I simply have some views that don't align.

So yes, you are doing exactly what you claim to dislike, attacking another vegan.
Why don't we start over and discuss?

 

[Ruthie]

So you do not wish to discuss?
I mean it's fine.
But if my tone is off, I apologise. It was probably the bold writing (for the whole post) that set me off. Sorry.
I am definitely not attacking you.

And yes, a flexitarian is an omnivore, as are we all.
Whether we choose to use animal products is a then a choice.
And whilst I don't agree with the flexitarian stance, it is certainly better than most of the population.
When I transitioned, I tried it myself, but found it was impossible. I ate some non-vegan food and felt extremely sad.
So went completely cold tofurkey!

And to all intents and purposes I am vegan. I simply have some views that don't align.

So yes, you are doing exactly what you claim to dislike, attacking another vegan.
Why don't we start over and discuss?

I did not write my entire post ( up the top) in bold - l have no idea why you are saying that . And I am not attacking you - I am defending myself , as far as I'm concerned . No I don't wish to discuss . I do appreciate the apology , but I'm done . Too old and too much body pain to discuss what , to me , is a very simple matter ..
Thank you and take care .