Australia culling feral cats

There are a lot of irrational "cat haters" out there (irrational just as anti vegan are) who spread these figures of cats and their impact on the environment. However they conveniently neglect to make the definition that this is for the most part NOT domestic cats. Of course we can surmise that feral cats are a result of domestic cats, and I agree that the problem lies with PEOPLE. Two things get under my skin. First, those who do not desex their cats are very irresponsible. It's actually illegal not to do do in my state. Secondly, those who allow their cats to be outside and roam around, is harmful to THE CAT. I drive around a lot early in the mornings (4am, pre-dawn, tatal darkness) and every day, without fail, I will encounter a cat darting across the road. The thought sickens me that it's only a matter of time before I hit one, which would devastate me (and of course the cat). I only hope that WHEN I run one down, it's a clean kill and I am not forced to despatch an injured dying animal with my bare hands. Maybe I think about this too much, but I'm mentally preparing myself for the inevitable.

Short answer to cat owners: KEEP YOU GODDAMN CAT INDOORS

I also believe that pet stores should be banned from selling cats, and for breeders to be shut down. For now, there are still too many cats that end up at the RSPCA or shelters, but sadly they are at capacity, and usually kill the adults because they can't find homes for them.
 
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There are a lot of irrational "cat haters" out there (irrational just as anti vegan are) who spread these figures of cats and their impact on the environment. However they conveniently neglect to make the definition that this is for the most part NOT domestic cats. Of course we can surmise that feral cats are a result of domestic cats, and I agree that the problem lies with PEOPLE. Two things get under my skin. First, those who do not desex their cats are very irresponsible. It's actually illegal not to do do in my state. Secondly, those who allow their cats to be outside and roam around, is harmful to THE CAT. I drive around a lot early in the mornings (4am, pre-dawn, tatal darkness) and every day, without fail, I will encounter a cat darting across the road. The thought sickens me that it's only a matter of time before I hit one, which would devastate me (and of course the cat). I only hope that WHEN I run one down, it's a clean kill and I am not forced to despatch an injured dying animal with my bare hands. Maybe I think about this too much, but I'm mentally preparing myself for the inevitable.

Short answer to cat owners: KEEP YOU GODDAMN CAT INDOORS

I also believe that pet stores should be banned from selling cats, and for breeders to be shut down. For now, there are still too many cats that end up at the RSPCA or shelters, but sadly they are at capacity, and usually kill the adults because they can't find homes for them.

You live in Australia and I don't but based on your comments, I don't think you actually understand this issue. I subscribe to the NY times and read the article. Maybe you couldn't - I know the NYT has a paywall.

but the targeted cats are not urban or suburban cats. These are not the cats wandering around your neighborhood or getting struck by vehicles. There are feral cats. These cats live in " most remote corners of one of the least populated places in the world". And they are decimating the native wildlife.

In most places, the prey-predator relationship has had millions of years to develop. Oh, sure evolutionary speaking there are lots of dead ends and unsuccessful species. And in the short term, there are lots of ups and downs in the population. But in most climax communities the prey and predator are well matched.

However, we have seen this play out dozens of times before. A new predator or exotic species is introduced and decimates the native ecosystem. Island ecosystems are particularly vulnerable. And here we see the same thing happening.

On the flip side, the track record of human intervention/prevention has been awful. But hopefully wildlife biologists have learned something from all these previous failures.

From the NYT
Since the First Fleet’s arrival, 34 mammal species have gone extinct in Australia. All of them existed nowhere else on earth; they’re gone. More than 100 mammal species in Australia are listed as between “near threatened” and “critical” by the International Union for Conservation of Nature. The continent has the highest mammal extinction rate in the world. Cats are considered to have been a leading threat for 22 of the extinct species, including the broad-faced potoroo, the crescent nailtail wallaby and the big-eared hopping mouse. “Recent extinction rates in Australia are unparalleled,” John Woinarski, one of Australia’s foremost conservation researchers, told me. “It’s calamitous.”​
 
There are a lot of irrational "cat haters" out there (irrational just as anti vegan are) who spread these figures of cats and their impact on the environment. However they conveniently neglect to make the definition that this is for the most part NOT domestic cats. Of course we can surmise that feral cats are a result of domestic cats, and I agree that the problem lies with PEOPLE. Two things get under my skin. First, those who do not desex their cats are very irresponsible. It's actually illegal not to do do in my state. Secondly, those who allow their cats to be outside and roam around, is harmful to THE CAT. I drive around a lot early in the mornings (4am, pre-dawn, tatal darkness) and every day, without fail, I will encounter a cat darting across the road. The thought sickens me that it's only a matter of time before I hit one, which would devastate me (and of course the cat). I only hope that WHEN I run one down, it's a clean kill and I am not forced to despatch an injured dying animal with my bare hands. Maybe I think about this too much, but I'm mentally preparing myself for the inevitable.

Short answer to cat owners: KEEP YOU GODDAMN CAT INDOORS

I also believe that pet stores should be banned from selling cats, and for breeders to be shut down. For now, there are still too many cats that end up at the RSPCA or shelters, but sadly they are at capacity, and usually kill the adults because they can't find homes for them.


Most cats are not fully domesticated. They are not dogs and it's not in their nature. They have more independance and self respect than dogs and will not put up with mistreatment. This is off putting to some people as they don't expet their "pet" to be an individual, rather a play thing and emotional go to when it's needed. I have had them most of my life and I know of only 1 that CHOSE to stay indoors, a lazy male who couldn't be bothered to do much other than eat and sleep. If they are raised indoors from kittens and never allowed out they learn to fear the outside and become totally dependant on their caretakers, like a brainwashed slave that doesn't know any better.


In my opinion asking people to keep "their" cats indoors all the time is like asking them to enslave an animal and deny it it's right to fresh air, plenty of sun, space to exercise the muscles and instincts to hunt and play. Dogs will put up with it because they are different kind of creature and are happy to go for a walk on a leash. The last time I've seen someone walking their cat on a leash is never.

Yes, they kill wildlife. They are not true omnivores like dogs are. They are designed as a hunter, from claws to teeth to digestive system. Sometimes, believe it or not, that wildlife is asking for it. I've seen birds hop to and fro on fences and houses and down to the ground just out of striking distance from a cat - taunting it.

Wild rabbits are a scourge in Australia, and have a history of being so. They over eat and over breed and they can be found in fairly large numbers even in semi-rural suburbs. I know because that's where I live, and the chances of me hitting one or seeing one splatted over the road is much greater than seeing a cat. Cat's bolt when spooked and may get hit but they aren't stupid and generally respect the roads.
 
Most cats are not fully domesticated. They are not dogs and it's not in their nature.

/Snip

In my opinion asking people to keep "their" cats indoors all the time is like asking them to enslave an animal

I respectfully disagree with you, and your inferences of cruelty. We cannot make distinctions with pet types as to whether they are enslaved or not. Once we become the primary care giver, with food, managing their hygiene and supplying their need for attention, all of which they would otherwise not receive in the wild, it might be said that we are enslaving them by circumstance.

The dog vs cat comment is a little daft "because they are a different creature". If we are to use the term 'enslaved', the only difference between a suburban yard dog and an indoor cat is the size of the jail cell.

To be transparent here, I live with a cat, Vinnie, in my home. Our home. For me, It's the ninth dwelling I've lived in over my life. For Vinnie, it is the only home he has ever known.


To this, I will add that as an indoor cat, Vinnie gets plenty of sunshine, from sitting on the window sill. He gets plenty of fresh air, because those windows open. He gets plenty of exercise, as I 'play ball' with him every day, or we chase each other around the house. At times I will let him outside to explore, and he is strictly supervised by me, and has never bolted. He is so domesticated that when he encounters a non-human living creature his predatory nature does not snap into action at all, rather he sits there in fascination simply observing.

Does this sound like animal cruelty ? Vinnie was 'adopted' as a kitten by me, from a no-kill shelter, as far as I know is only one of two in my city. As a responsible benefactor to all abandoned or homeless cats, It took four visits to the shelter by me, actually meeting the adult cats, but nothing 'clicked' (This shelter is very adamant about the cats 'finding' their new caregivers, and I've seem them outright refuse adoption to many people for various reasons of incompatibility or other concerns). Another two visits after that, and I came home with Vinnie.

If people did not adopt abandoned cats, what would be the outcome? More feral cats....more destruction of native bird life. No-kill shelters would reach capacity, and no longer be able to claim no-kill status. Without people to counter the reprehensible actions of the people that came before them in the act's life, then feral cat population would become a very big problem, the likes we can't begin to imagine compared to the current situation. So you can sit there and denounce cat 'ownership' (for won't of a better term) as slavery, but I would argue that it's liberation from mass death.

And I want to be clear here. Despite my liberation of Vinnie and the greater environmental benefits of adopting him, I'm no crazy cat guy. In fact, I tacitly support the argument for feral cat culling. It is the greater good that is to be focused on.

Kill one cat to save 10 birds, 30 marsupial mice and 50 crickets sounds like an ethical tradeoff to me. I heard an analogy the other day (Sam Harris podcast I believe) of the ethical 'best choice' dilemma which asks the listener to consider this: if you were to witness a burning house, and inside that house was a child and a Picasso worth $5million, which would you save? Bearing in mind that you would be expected to sell the Picasso, and donate the money towards the saving of many many children's lives through healthcare initiatives? Of course our instinct is to act upon the most immediate and direct humane impulse, and that is to save the child from the burning house. But in doing so, you are invariably killing thousands of other children. The same goes for cat culling. Many would say it's cruel and inhumane to do so, because the greater good is not immediate to our consciousness.
 
@Lou : Greetings. I have not read the NYT article, but I have seen several documentaries on cat-culling and engaged in many debates for & against the practice with people (real people, the kind we used to look in the eye and respectfully debate, before the internet became the place to **** & moan anonymously haha) In fact there is an Island down here that have successfully eradicated all feral cats entirely . When I am on my PC I will see if I can find it to share on this thread, because I think it is worth people considering the ethical values of culling of they are adamant that it's 'cruelty' that should be avoided. Mostly it's cat people who are the most vehemently opposed, but not me, I'm all for it, despite recognising that it's an ethicists dilemma
 
I respectfully disagree with you, and your inferences of cruelty. We cannot make distinctions with pet types as to whether they are enslaved or not. Once we become the primary care giver, with food, managing their hygiene and supplying their need for attention, all of which they would otherwise not receive in the wild, it might be said that we are enslaving them by circumstance.

The dog vs cat comment is a little daft "because they are a different creature". If we are to use the term 'enslaved', the only difference between a suburban yard dog and an indoor cat is the size of the jail cell.

If you cannot make a distinction then let your pet outside, unrestrained, and see if it returns to you. Chances are, it's scared to go outside because inside is all it knows. So do it with a kitten. Let it come and go as it pleases. If it returns to you, then you can claim you have a non-enforced relationship with it.

The cat I look after is free to come and go as she pleases. She comes for shelter, affection when she wants it, and food when she doesn't catch it herself. She is free to go at any time and leave me behind and with this cat I'd not have it any other way. She's a friend and companion animal, and she has chosen this herself.


Kill one cat to save 10 birds, 30 marsupial mice and 50 crickets sounds like an ethical tradeoff to me. I heard an analogy the other day (Sam Harris podcast I believe) of the ethical 'best choice' dilemma which asks the listener to consider this: if you were to witness a burning house, and inside that house was a child and a Picasso worth $5million, which would you save? Bearing in mind that you would be expected to sell the Picasso, and donate the money towards the saving of many many children's lives through healthcare initiatives? Of course our instinct is to act upon the most immediate and direct humane impulse, and that is to save the child from the burning house. But in doing so, you are invariably killing thousands of other children. The same goes for cat culling. Many would say it's cruel and inhumane to do so, because the greater good is not immediate to our consciousness.


What you are saying here sort of backs up that I think many vegans (although you seem to not be one yet) are biased against cats,
simply for doing what they are designed and made to do - hunt and kill. Throughout the ages, humans have benefited from their
relationships to cats in that they go after animals that eat both growing crops and stored grain, as well as helping to eradicate
household pests like rats. In return, cats get some love, affection, shelter and food for what they don't catch.

In Australia - both feral and semi-domestic cats help keep the rabbit population down, which is a scourge here.

If you found dear Vinnie killing some rats that may have made it into your residence, would you be able to apply your ethical argument
then? When does it become "unethical"? With 1 rat? 2? 50? Would you decide that Vinnie then deserves to die?

Do you feed your cat a supplemented Vegan diet? Because if not, it's still getting animal kills in some form. Maybe not in a direct fashion
that you can see (local wildlife), but in your pet food that is made (at least in part) from killing other animals. I personally feed
my cat a grain based food that contains some animal products - and it hunts for whatever else it needs. The way I see it, animals
are going to die regardless at the hands of a cat, directly or indirectly - and Vegan diets for cats are experimental, and most of the
so called long term evidence for them is at best anecdotal.

Like I said I live in a semi-rural suburban area. If I was even more rural and depended on crops instead of my local grocery store, and
I had a cat - I doubt I would even feed it much if at all - just give it shelter and attention when it wanted it. It would hunt and
keep down numbers of invasive wildlife that can easily get out of hand.
 
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The cat I look after is free to come and go as she pleases. She comes for shelter, affection when she wants it, and food when she doesn't catch it herself.

So let's be clear here. Statistically speaking, the cat you 'look after' is facing his/her lifespan being reduced significantly, being an outdoor cat prone to injury, roadkill incident. Your cat is free to roam the streets and kill hundreds, if not thousands of native animals. All so you can claim that you are not responsible for 'enslaving' an animal.

Sounds incredibly irresponsible to me, a misguided ethical position and of irreversible detriment to the environment & ecology
 
If you found dear Vinnie killing some rats that may have made it into your residence, would you be apple to apply your ethical argument then? When does it become "unethical"? With 1 rat? 2? 50? Would you decide that Vinnie then deserves to die?

Rats are not native species to most areas in which they abide. And....

*QUOTE*
Rats have had a huge impact on the natural environment. They are responsible for the decline of a number of native and endemic species. They eat the seeds and fruit of many endemic plants so prevent them from reproducing.
*/QUOTE*

For Vinnie to be killing rats is of BENEFIT to the environment, just as culling feral cats is of benefit to the environment. The focus needs to be on the greater, long term good rather than being caught up in irrelevant nuances of cruelty.
 
So let's be clear here. Statistically speaking, the cat you 'look after' is facing his/her lifespan being reduced significantly, being an outdoor cat prone to injury, roadkill incident. Your cat is free to roam the streets and kill hundreds, if not thousands of native animals. All so you can claim that you are not responsible for 'enslaving' an animal.

My friend also has a life. "Statistically speaking" a human can shelter themselves inside and never risk harm or injury by interacting with other humans, driving or riding in a motor vehicle and living the life of a hermit or being completely looked after by just one person.

Don't be daft with the animal argument. I notice you conveniently dodged the question of what your cat eats.I'm guessing that if you love Vinnie
you aren't keen on experimenting with him with a Vegan diet - so your cat still is responsible for killing, just not directly and if animal ag didn't exist
so you could feed it, then it would have to hunt. You also dodged the question of what you'd do to your cat if it was caught killing some invasive rats.

Maybe it's time to kill Vinnie to satisfy the ethical argument it's clear you can't sustain without intellectual dishonesty? Seriously man.
 
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Rats are not native species to most areas in which they abide. And....

Oh lol. Try telling a New Yorker that...or a farmer wanting to save his grain.

*QUOTE*
Rats have had a huge impact on the natural environment. They are responsible for the decline of a number of native and endemic species. They eat the seeds and fruit of many endemic plants so prevent them from reproducing.
*/QUOTE*

For Vinnie to be killing rats is of BENEFIT to the environment, just as culling feral cats is of benefit to the environment. The focus needs to be on the greater, long term good rather than being caught up in irrelevant nuances of cruelty.

Reality check, man. You, a westerner living in a city, a city that displaces millions of animals, kills them for food, and introduced all kinds of non-native species here - are yourself not a native, and neither am I. Nor are rabbits, foxes and cats. Your native argument also falls short because if you really believed it, you'd be arguing that humans do not belong here, as collectively they have directly or indirectly been responsible for all kinds of suffering and killing of native and non native wildlife, far far above what cats have collectively done.
 
The culling of australia feral cats that reproduce like rats in huge quantities and do destroy all native wild life is a fact. Millions have been culled and this will continue.

Of course it is unfortunate.

However. what is the alternative ?

Capture all and spay and then cage all and feed them vegan in cages for the remainder of their lives ? too costly.

Let them decimate all wildlife and then starve to death themselves ? that is what would happen to xmas island type scenarios.

They are not part of a natural ecosystem is the problem...so they would end up destroying what is left of all wild life species that are part of the ecosystem in Australia.

Domestic cat populations in all the "pet owning" areas are out of control....they are not part of natural ecosystems in their vast numbers kept alive due to humans feeding them is the truth.
 
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Another example of how the "pet" species due to "familiarity" get priority in the pet owning public minds when it comes to dismissing the effect of domestic cat species on fragile real wild life species.

So many saying TNR...trap neuter release....

The Netherlands just in the News for culling 1000 feral cats...

Australia gets the worst press of course.

4 million PET and 4 million FERAL domestic cat species in Australia currently. Plans to cull the ferals in progress.

It is the lesser evil. FACT that domestic cat species are a major cause of species extinction today as NON NATIVE. https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/09/13/1602480113 The National Academy of Sciences of the USA. also the National Geographic...https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2018/08/cats-kill-reptiles-populations-australia-animals/ also the Wild Life Society....http://wildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/FactSheet-FeralCats_FINAL-1.pdf also Bird Scientists...https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/danvergano/feral-cats-birds-science-denial who state like all the others that ...

the 600 million "unnatural invasive domestic cat species" population in the world has and is continuing to drive billions of animals to death and are species extinction major causers ! "“Cat advocates advance propaganda that blatantly contradicts scientific evidence,” they write.

If one realises some species only have a few thousand populations left...choosing based on saving a species makes them more priority than the domestic pet cat species of course who are in no risk of extinction but already at over populated unnatural numbers in existence as it is.

PETS of cats introduced from the middle east origin of the domestic cat species means abnormal out of control non ecosystem destructive of real wild life everywhere.

This scientific statement from those above provided references is worth additionally sharing...

"Invasive mammalian predators endanger a further 596 species at risk of extinction, " and

"Species most at risk from predators have high evolutionary distinctiveness and inhabit insular environments. Invasive mammalian predators are therefore important drivers of irreversible loss of phylogenetic diversity worldwide. "

1 cat destroys at least 200 wild animals per year. 8 million Australia domestic pet and gone feral cats are killing 1 billion animals per year.
 
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