Australia culling feral cats

Sax

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This article got me thinking. Another trolley problem scenario.

Saving so many species from extinction is an important goal. How much cruelty does that justify?

Ecosystems are undergoing globalization along with our economies. The process is irreversible. Is it better to just let things unfold?

Aren't humans the ultimate destructive invasive? What good are these efforts enacted against other species when we aren't willing to constrain ourselves?

We need to save as much biodiversity as possible, and that's going to mean making a lot of hard choices. Unfortunately we will be choosing the easy way for ourselves.

Australia Is Deadly Serious About Killing Millions of Cats
Feral felines are driving the country’s native species to extinction. Now a massive culling is underway to preserve what’s left of the wild.
 

Lou

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This is a good example of a difficult ethical dilemma. However, it can also be pretty much stated as an ecological problem.

Here in California we also have a feral cat problem. But very few people are seriously suggesting extermination. But then our cats are not destroying an ecosystem.

BTW, no one knows how many feral cats are in California. But for sure it is in the millions. I was involved with a program that captured cats and neutered them and then released them. It was fairly ineffective but not a complete failure.

Humanity has faced this kind of issue before. And some of the failures have been tragic.

Extermination is almost always the most economical and effective solution. And when the invasive species is a plant or bug or fish no one really complains.

Also, I think Australia has a long history of making poor decisions in this area.
 

Nekodaiden

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I'd like to see more verifiable numbers on both the number of cats and the number of animals (specifically the ones that are supposed to be in danger of going extinct). The article is working with estimates (2-6 million is a huge gap that suggests a large guesswork factor), and the number of birds/reptiles are largely guesstimates as well.

Cats are indiscriminate hunters, they'll go after just about anything that moves and is big enough to be a meal for a cat. I've seen my friend catch everything from rabbits to mice, to small/medium size birds, to large insects. As such, I find it hard to believe any species, unless it is specifically concentrated in one area is really in danger.

Lions are large cats that live in the wild, breed, have litters and they live on the meat of other animals. Has any species ever gone extinct because they exist, or does Nature have a way of working that out without our direct involvement?
 

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I have lived with this issue first hand - l live rurally , and have done in two Aussie states for nearly 30 years .. We have watched wallabies , bandicoots , potoroos , and possums all succumb to toxoplasmosis , as well as being hunted by the feral ( and domestic) cats .. Toxoplasmosis is carried by cats and it kills the wildlife very slowly - it attacks their nervous system and they often starve to death because they shake and can not move about without falling over .. This is a very short description of what happens , but l think the point is made ..
Of course it is humans that have created this problem , but it still needs to be addressed at the ground level .. There really are millions of these feral cats , and they are big ..
Do not kid yourself that Australian wildlife can deal with this - it is not anything like the above statement - " Lions are large cats that live in the wild ,etc. - Has any species ever gone extinct because they exist? " Come on people - the huge difference is - lions evolved in an environment naturally , where there is an abundance of their natural prey - and Nature keeps it in balance via multiple ways ..

Cats were introduced into Australia ( like horses ,rabbits and foxes - a huge environmental disaster) where most of the wildlife have no defences against them , and have evolved without them .. And the toxoplasmosis is nasty .. The cats also hunt skinks and other lizards , as well as marsupials that have enough problems with habitat destruction ..

We know someone who traps and shoots these feral cats - l don't approve of this , but l do understand his motivation .. If someone could come up with a kind , painless and fearless way of sending these cats Home , that would be great - not ideal , of course - but what else to do ? These cats are everywhere in the Australian rural areas .. We love our wildlife - they are unique and gentle and are fast disappearing .. In our area now , on a mountain , there used to be bandicoots here about 20 years ago - but no longer . No-one has seen one since then ..

This is a difficult decision - and it has multiple layers of ethics - so it needs to be discussed ( if at all) by people who have educated themselves thoroughly on the problem , or who have seen it first- hand .. These cats are feral for generations now - they are not placid little cats ..
I feel for them because l know they are just trying to survive - and humans created this situation .. But there has to be some hard decisions made if we want to keep any of our wildlife .. Habitat issues are being addressed in numerous ways , where we can fight the logging companies - but this , too , needs some attention ..

Hopefully humans have learned a big lesson from this .. Unfortunately , animals are always the ones that pay for our mistakes or neglect ..

Best wishes to all , love from Blissful . x
 
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Nekodaiden

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We know someone who traps and shoots these feral cats - l don't approve of this , but l do understand his motivation .. If someone could come up with a kind , painless and fearless way of sending these cats Home , that would be great - not ideal , of course - but what else to do ? These cats are everywhere in the Australian rural areas .. We love our wildlife - they are unique and gentle and are fast disappearing .. In our area now , on a mountain , there used to be bandicoots here about 20 years ago - but no longer . No-one has seen one since then ..

Uh, where is "home"? Compared to humans (who, by the way, except for the aboriginees also cannot call Australia "home" as we're all ultimately imports) - and measure the death and displacement of animals through industry, land use, and of course animal ag for slaughter. In terms of "displacement of wildlife" and destruction of "natural habitat", the feral cat just trying to survive fares a lot better.

People forget that Australia has other natural predators - like certain reptiles and others like dingos. Why is it that the feral cat gets all the blame for magically increasing it's numbers (2-6 million...so within the ball park that nobody knows where 4 million might be) and "destroying all the wildlife"? Is there any hard proof of this? Or is it the kind of proof on par with pointing to road kill I see every single week and blaming motor vehicles for species destruction?
 

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oh dear you have completely misunderstood me - "Home " , with a capital H , means back to where we all come from - The Absolute Realm - or God , as some would call it .. We re all souls in bodies here , including animals ..
And l never said the cats were "destroying all the wildlife " - so if you are going to quote me , then perhaps it is a good idea to do so accurately ..
"Where is the proof of the devastation of wildlife from feral cats "? Everywhere in the wild - which is where l have lived for over 30 years ..

I never said they were the only source of wildlife devastation - but it is a significant problem .. Between habitat destruction and feral cats ( and foxes) the wildlife are having a very hard time indeed .. Dingos don't live in Tasmania , by the way - they often live in arid areas , where the wildlife is very different .. And dingos , by the way , were introduced too - it is thought they were brought here by traders thousands of years ago .. So , technically , they are not "native" either ... but that is not the point , as far as l'm concerned ..
We have watched so much wildlife , including joeys and other babies , die a slow , nasty death from toxo - and then there's the birds , as well .. Birds are being decimated - again , they have enough to contend with , with loss of habitat .. But even with habitat ( we have lived on native bush properties) they still have the feral cats killing them .. Domestic cats too .. Cats do not belong in the australian bush , feral or otherwise ..

Sure , you can say that most of us aren't where we originally evolved , but this discussion is about feral cats .. I've already said that this is a problem created by humans - didn't you read my entire post ? Or did you just have a reaction to certain words ?

I understand that you feel for the cats - so do l , as l have already said - but the suffering caused by the feral cats can not be ignored , just because there are other forms of suffering inflicted directly by humans .. Unless you have personally seen it , like l have for years , you can not grasp the enormity of it ..
I am the first to step up and put the blame fairly and squarely on humans - but the issue still has to be addressed somehow ..
Diversity of species is an important part of the health of the entire eco-system - which affects the entire population of animals within it ..
What exactly would you suggest ? We leave the feral cats alone , at the expense of over a hundred of other species ? Leaving them to die a slow , painful death ?
If we don't tackle the feral cat issue , then should we also not bother to tackle the cane toad issue ? The cane toad kills anything that tries to eat it - including cats , dogs , birds , goannas , quolls etc ., and squeezes out native frogs from their own native habitat ..
So , do we let the cane toad population explode too , or do we help all the other species they affect ? Oddly enough , because they aren't seen as "cute" or "fluffy" , no-one seems to mind the killing of cane toads ..

I do not wish to engage in a war of words with you , but please know your subject before you make sweeping statements .

Please do me the honour of actually reading my entire post , ok ? You are talking to a vegan who has fought for animal rights all my life .. You are also talking to a vegan who has a lot of practical , first -hand experience , including raising injured and orphaned wildlife .( including a blind orphan joey , blind from toxo .. it's mother died from toxo). I have also had cats in my life - but the two - cats and wildlife , do not belong together ..
Even if you can train your cat not to kill things , it will still spread toxoplasmosis ..

I honour your feelings about this , by the way .. Humans have a lot to answer for ..They are still dumping cats , to this very day ..
However , the answer to these problems is not always easy to accept .

Many blessings to you , from Blissful xx
 
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Nekodaiden

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I have also had cats in my life - but the two - cats and wildlife , do not belong together ..

I know you want me to address your whole posts (or do you? - war of words and all)

but honestly I think this sums up your position. It seems to me that a lot of vegans, based on things I've read here, and elsewhere have a slight bias against cats - because they are natural predators. There is even a person here who keeps cats locked up in her residence, and "provides" them only vegan meals supplemented/fortified with the extras cats need. Basically, like jail for a cat.

oh dear you have completely misunderstood me - "Home " , with a capital H , means back to where we all come from - The Absolute Realm - or God , as some would call it .. We re all souls in bodies here , including animals ..
You talk of cats going "home" (which you mean back to God, or heaven or whatever it is that entails) ...so it's as if you believe they were a mistake? Sigh... sorry - so cannot relate. That's about the most speciest statement one can make, in this case, against cats. It's hard for me to believe you empathize with them and disagree with the cat killer when you believe they shouldn't exist on this continent to begin with!

Cats have been around since the time of the Egyptians, at the least, and if they were bred into that form by humans(we don't actually know this), then they have no natural habitat, and everywhere they exist they have been introduced. Where is the proof that they (or mostly they) are responsible for species extinction all around the world? Nowhere but Australia, it seems, where the science article linked in the OP can't even do anything but make wild unsubstantiated guesses at their numbers. As for experience - your mountain experience and caring for animals does not make you an expert on either how many there are, or how much they take a toll on the environment, no more than my experience of seeing roadkill every single week qualifies me to blame motor vehicles for unsustainable wildlife destruction.
 

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No - l did not say , or mean , that cats are a "mistake" - l was just referring to them being "culled" - don't like the expression , because it sometimes covers up nasty means of killing - like poison ... I call all beings dying , "going Home" - it's just an expression l use to mean leaving the body , which we all do when we die .. ( l am a spiritual person , and so l often use spiritual expressions . That is all)
Perhaps 30 years of experience in the wilds of Australia doesn't make me an "expert" , but l also quote statistics from those who have studied this problem in the wild for decades .. ( with the use of night-cameras , every week of the year , every year , as well as day-time cameras and forensic examination of what's left of bodies ) Would they classify as "experts" to you ?

And l never said feral cats are " responsible for species extinction all around the world " .. why do you keep mis-quoting me ? Please do not use quotes you have read elsewhere while you are responding to what l have said . We are just responding to each other , yes ?

I promise you , as you are a person who clearly loves animals , if you saw the suffering involved from toxo alone , you would be affected by that ..
I repeat - what is the answer then ? The science is there , and the proof is seen daily by thousands who live in the bush . ( not just us)
As much as you'd like to , there is no denying the impact that feral cats ( and other ferals) are having on the native wildlife ..

What then , is your solution ?

I do not have a "bias" against cats , just as l do not have a "bias" against any predators .. I've had dogs too , in the past - rescued over a hundred of them from shelters .. But , if they are uncontrolled , they , too , can have a devastating effect on wildlife ..( My dogs were never allowed to roam and chase /hunt the wildlife ) ( and cats should never be forced to be vegan - this is wrong and against their nature)
If feral dogs ( and there are some) were in the same numbers as cats , they , too , would be a big problem - but at least they don't carry and spread toxoplasmosis ..

Have you heard about Christmas Island ? The nesting sea-birds and others were being wiped out by feral cats , so there was a killing program .. (always a last resort , in my books ) Then there was a rat problem too - but now that both have gone from the island , the numbers of birds have come back ..

We know of a man who has personally caught thousands of feral cats in one small rural area in Tasmania alone . Literally thousands - he has a record of this , and is now receiving funding to continue . We know of many more who shoot them by the hundreds .. The cats l have personally seen are very big and often unhealthy looking ..

If you have ever seen a wallaby, possum or other animal dragging itself around because it is half-paralyzed from toxo , you would know how hard it is to ignore the problem ...
So , you can deny it all you want , that is your choice - but l know , and my partner knows , that we can not just stand by and ignore it .
If suffering is happening right in front of you , that is an opportunity to do something about it .. If it means taking drastic action over one species to save a hundred others , then that's what we will do ..
I have already , very reluctantly , taken 4 feral cats to the vet to be sent Home by injection .. I do not enjoy doing that - but it's a whole lot better than the alternatives ..
Be an animal -lover , but be practical too .. We are not children , with romantic notions of animals and nature ..

It bears repeating - l can not stand by and watch so many animals die a slow death , and not do something about it ... Sometimes the lesser "evil" is necessary to right a "larger evil" .. As l said - it is a difficult dilemma ..
If that makes me "wrong" to you - then so be it ..

Wishing you a happy life , love from Blissful xo
 
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Nekodaiden

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And l never said feral cats are " responsible for species extinction all around the world " .. why do you keep mis-quoting me ? Please do not use quotes you have read elsewhere while you are responding to what l have said . We are just responding to each other , yes ?

I never said you did. Try to read the statement in context. Only Australia
seems to have this problem. Why is that? Everywhere else in the world that
cats exist they don't breed in wild numbers and cause species to go extinct.
So why not?

I promise you , as you are a person who clearly loves animals , if you saw the suffering involved from toxo alone , you would be affected by that ..
I repeat - what is the answer then ? The science is there , and the proof is seen daily by thousands who live in the bush . ( not just us)
As much as you'd like to , there is no denying the impact that feral cats ( and other ferals) are having on the native wildlife ..

Is that the "science" that can't determine if it's 2 million or 6 million?
About your "proof" of what you "see every day" - I'm sure that's just as
exaggerated as the so called "science" presented in the article, and even
if it wasn't it doesn't follow that one can draw wild conclusions about
mass extermination of species any more than I can about seeing roadkill
every week and claiming motor vehicles doing the same.

What then , is your solution ?

As the "experts" can't even seem to get some basic facts right about
the numbers - I think the "problem" is way over stated.

Have you heard about Christmas Island ? The nesting sea-birds and others were being wiped out by feral cats , so there was a killing program .. (always a last resort , in my books ) Then there was a rat problem too - but now that both have gone from the island , the numbers of birds have come back ..

If they were "wiped out" then they couldn't have "come back". Some birds were killed. That's what natural predators do when they get hungry. Nothing went extinct and if that was all the cats had to eat then they would have starved
once the birds were gone. But unlike humans, cats are not discriminate
hunters which means they don't go after specific species.


I have already , very reluctantly , taken 4 feral cats to the vet to be sent Home by injection .. I do not enjoy doing that - but it's a whole lot better than the alternatives ..
Be an animal -lover , but be practical too .. We are not children , with romantic notions of animals and nature ..
So you're speciest against cats. You'll take them to the vet to get killed but yet disapprove when someone does it by trapping and shooting. Yeah, I get it. They do not have the right to live in your eyes and do what they were designed to do.
 

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Hi Catalin , the biggest issue is probably habitat clearance , followed by introduced species - cats , foxes , cane toads , rabbits , horses , honey bees , European wasps , etc.. etc ... and that includes exotic plants , some of which have invaded wilderness areas and are squeezing out the natives , which also affects the wildlife , of course ..
On our mountain , we have an explosion of millions ( yes , really) of Foxgloves ( digitalis) invading the native bush .. These are poisonous .. Some bright spark brought them over from Europe a long time ago , thinking that Australia needed European flowers flowers in it's gardens ..

Cats , unlike dogs , take to the wilderness very adeptly .. While there are some feral dogs , they are not in the same league as cats when it comes to hunting .. Cats are the experts .. And dogs do not spread toxoplasmosis ..

I live among these issues , seeing them first-hand , as well as knowing many people who deal with the cat issue in particular .. The man who caught thousands ( so far , in one area alone) has photographed , weighed and measured every cat he's caught , and many have gone to labs ( after death) to have their stomach contents analyzed ..
No matter how anyone feels about it , the facts are these - there are millions of feral cats ( growing bigger with each generation) in the Australian wilderness , and they are carnivores .. They are not eating grass .. they are eating anything they can catch , and that is mostly our native wildlife . Some rabbits are included , but rabbits are often too fast for them ..
And , the worst part , as far as we are concerned , is the toxoplasmosis .. It bears repeating - this is a slow , horrible death .. We have witnessed this for 30 years , and there is nothing quite like having it in your face to make you face the reality of it .

This is a complex issue , and it's not from an informed position to comment from Canada . My partner spent years campaigning for the native forests , against the giant logging companies , and he is well known in that arena here .. However , even when native wilderness can be saved from logging , the wildlife are still not safe . Their wild home has been overrun with feral cats ..This is not an exaggeration . I do not do that .

So , apart from continuing to tackle the habitat clearing problem , the next best thing we can do is tackle the feral cat problem ..
I love all animals , but it absolutely makes no sense at all to allow one species to devastate approximately 100 species ..
Humans created the problem , so the solution has to come from humans ..
Unfortunately , and regrettably , this involves removing as many cats as possible from the environment - there is only one way to do this , and that is by killing them .. all we hope for is that they are quickly and humanely killed - which is a much better deal than the wildlife are getting ..!

Living in nature , sometimes among rodent plagues , has made me a very practical vegan .. We always practice loving kindness first , with any being , but there have been times when we have been forced to take other steps ..
Right now we are debating what to do about a European Wasps nest right near our house .. In large numbers they can be dangerous , especially if accidentally disturbed .. We'd rather just leave them alone ( although they are causing environmental problems) but we feel we may have to take action..

As vegans , even we are allowed to protect or defend our physical welfare ..

I repeat - the feral cat problem is complex and a logistical nightmare - how l wish humans had never made these silly mistakes ! But , they did - and here we are ..

Sending you all respect and honouring your feelings , love from Blissful x
 
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Nekodaiden

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No matter how anyone feels about it , the facts are these - there are millions of feral cats ( growing bigger with each generation) in the Australian wilderness , and they are carnivores .. They are not eating grass .. they are eating anything they can catch , and that is mostly our native wildlife . Some rabbits are included , but rabbits are often too fast for them ..
I live in suburbia and look after a semi-wild cat. It is not "mine", and I didn't "adopt" it. It has been through the pound system, and from what I understand was either abandoned originally or ran away from it's original caretakers. My neighbors adopted it and it decided it wanted to hang out
with me instead. I didn't need to coax it or tempt it with food(although I do feed it with a mostly grain based food now) - it originally approached me.

I'm a little amused you think cats don't eat grass or can't catch rabbits and claim to be some sort of expert (or quoting the experts) when I have seen my friend do both of those things - eat grass and grass seed, as well as catch rabbits. In fact the first thing it did when it was inside and saw another cat outside in my yard which I spoke to was go and kill a rabbit and plant it at my front door.
 

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Oh Nekodaiden - you really do not know what you are talking about ..
I do not exaggerate , and neither do the others who document the cats they trap .. You do not know me , so please do not make assumptions about my character ..
There are no "wild conclusions" being drawn .. You are trying to deny facts that have been documented by a lot of people - who are here , doing the ground work .. Who are here , trying to alleviate the suffering caused by the spread of toxo .. who are here , and who care about all animals ..

And having a cat put to sleep by injection is far more loving and peaceful than being shot - so how does that make me a "speciest" ?
We respect all life , equally .. But l will repeat yet again - how is it helping the environment by allowing one species to devastate 100 species ?

You can go on denying the facts all you like , but they still remain facts .. Quibbling over the exact number of millions in the wild here , isn't going to change the facts of their impact ..

Re the birds on Christmas Island - l said they "were being wiped out " - not that they had been completely wiped out .. there is a difference .. You continue to mis-quote me .

You can not provide proof of your uninformed perspective - You have nothing to back up your argument - yet , there is plenty of physical evidence to back up what we know and experience .. What thousands of people know and experience -You can not compare seeing roadkill to someone trapping literally thousands of cats in one small area - that makes no sense .

This is the last of it from me .. Next time l see a half-paralysed possum starving to death because it can't chew anymore , or forage for food , l'll tell it it's just an exaggeration about all of those cats , ok ? I'll tell it , "it's ok , this is just how life is for you now - those pussy cats are not a problem"..

My goodness - will you please make sure you really understand a problem before you go wading in with knee-jerk reactions ?
That was my style when l was a teenager - but l grew out of that , thankfully .
The golden rule of debating is - know your subject .. Emotional reactions are not knowing ..

And oh my gosh ! Of course cats will nibble on grass to help digestion - l meant that they don't survive on it ! And l did not say they never ate rabbits - but the wildlife are slower than rabbits , so they will hunt them first .. They do catch some rabbits , but a bandicoot , joey or bettong etc., is much easier prey ..
And yes - it is obvious you live in suburbia ..
A half-wild suburban cat can not be compared to a 5th generation feral bush cat - that is like comparing a domestic cat with a panther .. Is that the sum of your experience re feral cats ? And you are trying to argue that l am not an "expert" ?

I will no longer continue this debate with someone who clearly has none of the facts , speaks only from a position of romantic ignorance , and can only over-react to certain sentences - l can't believe you so badly misunderstood my "they're not eating grass " statement ..! That was really funny .. I told my partner , who also laughed ..
You really could use some lessons in how to debate ..

Over and out ..
 
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Feral Cat: I just want to eat.

Red Neck Aussie: We love our native wildlife, and you're not native. You deserve to die!

Feral Cat: Unless your an aborigine, you're not native either. I kill to eat. Sometimes I hunt
for fun, but it's because that's how I keep my skill so I can eat.

Why do you kill?

Red Neck Aussie: Nothing like some prawns at Christmas, a bit of juicy lamb, chicken nuggets,
locally caught shark....even a bit of roo if we're out in the outback..

Feral Cat: Oh, so you kill too? Do you need to kill?

Red Neck Aussie: Well, now, I don't do it directly...

Feral Cat: Between your cities, your animal farming, your pleasure hunting, your roads
and vehicles you've displaced and killed a lot of animals. I can see a great
many of you are fat, sick, dying early and need fiber supplements and herbs
just to take a dump. Are you sure you're doing this "for the animals"? Or if
not for the animals, just your dream of what Australia "should be"?

Red Neck Aussie: But there are millions and millions of you and you breed like mad! Soon
many species will go extinct because of you!

Feral Cat: How many of us are there again?

Red Neck Aussie: Between 2 and 6 million. At LEAST. But we don't really know for sure...

Feral Cat: Many fellow natural carnivores and omnivores give birth to litters, including
your dogs. What makes you think we have special breeding abilities that put to
shame other carnivorous or omnivorous species?

Red Neck Aussie: Shut up and die, cat. We aren't after crocodiles, dingos, snakes, wild dogs
and other hunters. We're after YOU!

Feral Cat: *Shudder* snakes...saw my brother taken down by one of them. Nasty things, them. And
apparently no good to anyone - all they do is eat the other wildlife, including, sometimes
us.

All those animals you say you're so worried about have other natural predators, and some of those
predators kill us. So why are you after us again specifically?

Red Neck Aussie: *Pats dog*. Because you're a cat, and we don't like cats, and we need to convince everyone else
here they are a menace to the ecosystem so we have an excuse to hunt and kill them. Spiders killing
wildlife, snakes killing wildlife, dingos killing wildlife, crocs killing wildlife, certain birds killing
wildlife - all of them can't breed like you.


Feral Cat: Right. Our special breeding powers. Speaking of breeding, we do a fine job of killing another species not native to
Australia - rabbits. And we don't munch your crops like they do:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbits_in_Australia#Effects_on_Australia's_ecology
 

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Hahahahahahahahahaaa that is very funny .. "Red necks" don't care about the wilderness or wildlife ! They are the ones doing the logging and clear-felling !
You obviously have no idea - and we don't really call them "red-necks " here - we call them yobs or bogans ..

You are very funny .. Cats are not "hunted" by bogan hunters ! Oh you are so naive ! You poor woman .. You are so mixed up ..
Bogans love to hunt crocodiles , dingos , wild dogs , feral deer , pigs , etc - in fact , they will hunt anything that moves if they can get away with it ..
It is completely nonsensical to claim they are only after cats ... !
I'm sorry , but you are so far off the mark , it's not possible to get any real argument out of you ..

Bye bye ..
 

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Hahahahahahahahahaaa that is very funny .. "Red necks" don't care about the wilderness or wildlife ! They are the ones doing the logging and clear-felling !
You obviously have no idea - and we don't really call them "red-necks " here - we call them yobs or bogans ..

You are very funny .. Cats are not "hunted" by bogan hunters ! Oh you are so naive ! You poor woman .. You are so mixed up ..
Bogans love to hunt crocodiles , dingos , wild dogs , feral deer , pigs , etc - in fact , they will hunt anything that moves if they can get away with it ..
It is completely nonsensical to claim they are only after cats ... !
I'm sorry , but you are so far off the mark , it's not possible to get any real argument out of you ..

Bye bye ..

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Veganite

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There are no "wild conclusions" being drawn
This maybe quite true, but just remember there's always going to be some people that will say "white is black and down is up" just for the sake of arguing....or was that "black is white and up is down"?



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TofuRobot

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Not here to get involved in the debate, but I had a cat that hunted and ate rabbits ALL the time. He stayed WTH the ex BF when I moved out. I think he finally got off and to lazy to do it anymore, but he definitely had his fair share of rabbit.
 

Lou

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Not here to get involved in the debate, but I had a cat that hunted and ate rabbits ALL the time. He stayed WTH the ex BF when I moved out. I think he finally got off and to lazy to do it anymore, but he definitely had his fair share of rabbit.
I think in Australia they would like the cats to eat rabbits.
 

Lou

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This maybe quite true, but just remember there's always going to be some people that will say "white is black and down is up" just for the sake of arguing....or was that "black is white and up is down"?
Or the Earth is flat. 🌏
 
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