Question Are we responsible for deaths-Egg & dairy industries?

[MeatIsMurder]

Hello. I'm a vegan myself, but I was talking to a friend of mine who's an ethical vegetarian with no plans of becoming vegan. He made a point that I never heard before and was unable to refute. I was wondering what you all thought about it.
When people talk to vegs about crop deaths, they often reply that there's a difference between inadvertent deaths and actually paying for someone to be killed. It's the difference between accidentally hitting someone with your car and going out with the intention of ramming someone over.
When I said that the horrible slaughter of the baby male chicks was part and parcel with the industry, he said that the same can be said about crop deaths. You're not paying for baby chicks to die just like you're not paying for the crop deaths. They're inadvertent, so consumers are not responsible for them.
What are your thoughts?

 

[silva]

To say the male chicks that are ground alive is inadvertent is beyond ignorant. That is a DIRECT result of the egg industry--that would not, could not, happen if it weren't for the production of eggs! Consumers are the REASON they're killed

Yes, animals are killed by farming equipment, they're displaced from their homes. Considering how many millions more are killed for the farming of feed for not only livestock animals, but also for dairy cows.

It's not like killing someone by accident compared to paying for someone to be killed, more like paying for genocide

 

[Mischief]

I think we're responsible in both cases. The issue is whether we want to reduce the amount of suffering we cause.

His argument is sort of like someone who just ran over a pedestrian saying, "Well, I just killed that guy, so I guess it doesn't matter how many more I kill."

 

[Mikkel]

Of cause we are. Byuing their products is supporting what they do. You can't just pick and choose what you want to support, when it's all connected.

The only reason male chicks are grind up alive, is that they don't lay eggs. And as long as they can't only produce female chicks, those deaths are a part of the egg industry. Hens are also killed when they can't produce enough eggs anymore, the count of hens dying from you insert them to a egg laying farm to slaughter is high (depend a bit on the breed and how the farm is build up). Free ranged hens aren't always that much better than caged hens, as most of them don't see the sunlight or anything... Also the hens lays way too many eggs during a year for what their body is made for. So it deprevate their body for nutrions too. Canibalism is alo high, they kill eachother etc.

Milk industry is a bit different from country to country, depending on the breed they use for milk. In Norway, we have the NRF breed (traslated to "Norwegian Red Cattle"), that is know to be a breed for both for milk and meat. It means that male calfs aren't slaughtered as once they are born, but will be rasied for meat. In several countries, they kill the baby male calfs quite fast since they don't produce milk. When the cow can't produce enough milk, she's killed.

 

[Andy_T]

As Maya Angelou said « Do your best until you know better. Than do better. »

Vegetarians nowadays clearly know that there is a « better », but many of them steadfastly refuse to do better, and instead spend their energy on inventing excuses.

I really don’t get it. When I first heard what was wrong with dairy and eggs about 10 years ago, after 15 years of not having eaten meat », I could not do anything else than stop consuming them that very week. I could not unsee what I had seen and unlearn what I had learned. I have a very hard time following the logic of a vegetarian saying « Ah well, that is all very bad for those chickens and calves, but we have to draw the line somewhere », so to me that is a source of constant disappointment with hard-core « vegetarians »...

 

[silva]

So this person just came to basically troll--because?

 

[Danielle]

You’ll still cause less crop deaths as a vegan, yet it seems like every meat eater uses this argument. Like they’re saying since you can’t avoid causing death completely, then you shouldn’t even try.

 

[PTree15]

You’ll still cause less crop deaths as a vegan, yet it seems like every meat eater uses this argument. Like they’re saying since you can’t avoid causing death completely, then you shouldn’t even try.

Exactly. It's like, well, I can't be perfect, so the heck with it. I've never understood that logic.

 

[ApologeticallyGenuine]

To say the male chicks that are ground alive is inadvertent is beyond ignorant. That is a DIRECT result of the egg industry--that would not, could not, happen if it weren't for the production of eggs! Consumers are the REASON they're killed

Of course they wouldn't be killed if it weren't for the industry. Consumers are not paying for them to be killed. They're paying for them to be exploited, yes, but they're not paying for the chicks to be killed. Just like with plants, we pay for the product, not the unnecessary death. Yet those deaths are part and parcel with the industry. If it weren't for crop farming, millions of small animals and the larger animals like deer who like to eat the crops would not, could not be killed. They're both inadvertent as far as the consumer is concerned, especially when compared to the meat industry in which the consumer is directly paying for an animal to be slaughtered.
My friend pointed out a double standard in my argument. As deaths in the egg, dairy, and crop industries are all inadvertent, either we're responsible for all of them or none of them. According to the people in this thread, we're responsible for all of the deaths, but veganism is about reducing the harm we cause- which I think is very reasonable.

So this person just came to basically troll--because?

If you were talking about me trolling, I'm not trying to. I'm a bit of a new vegan (7 mos) after being an uninformed ethical vegetarian for 3 years. I'm still trying to learn and maneuver the arguments.

 

[silva]

Of course they wouldn't be killed if it weren't for the industry. Consumers are not paying for them to be killed. They're paying for them to be exploited, yes, but they're not paying for the chicks to be killed. Just like with plants, we pay for the product, not the unnecessary death. Yet those deaths are part and parcel with the industry. If it weren't for crop farming, millions of small animals and the larger animals like deer who like to eat the crops would not, could not be killed. They're both inadvertent as far as the consumer is concerned, especially when compared to the meat industry in which the consumer is directly paying for an animal to be slaughtered.
My friend pointed out a double standard in my argument. As deaths in the egg, dairy, and crop industries are all inadvertent, either we're responsible for all of them or none of them. According to the people in this thread, we're responsible for all of the deaths, but veganism is about reducing the harm we cause- which I think is very reasonable.

If you were talking about me trolling, I'm not trying to. I'm a bit of a new vegan (7 mos) after being an uninformed ethical vegetarian for 3 years. I'm still trying to learn and maneuver the arguments.

I apologize, I've heard these questions come up to just stir the pot and wondered when you didn't come back
Everyone has to eat, and more crops are grown for animals that then get killed as food--that is by far the most killing. Chicks are treated as waste product, as well as the chickens.
There are ways to grow crops without the use of land and that would increase if people cared enough to be vegan

 

[silva]

@MeatIsMurder59 --and

 

[Andy_T]

Another thing - I do not doubt that animals get killed during crops, however, the amount of such deaths is a topic of discussion.

https://www.theflamingvegan.com/vie...als-killed-when-grain-is-harvested-for-vegans

And indeed, we should not be claiming that plant food is completely cruelty free - both animals are killed and humans are exploited to grow and harvest it ... but there is much less cruelty associated with it than with eating animal foods.

 

[Danielle]

theres no way around it without drastically changing your life, veganism is already such a huge change. I don’t think many would consider it if they had to grow all their food, for example