US 1.4% of white Americans owned slaves

[SummerRain]

For the reasons others have stated, I don't think it is that relevant that only 1.4% of white Americans owned slaves, since the majority of the rest of society supported it, thought it was the right thing to do and wanted it to continue.

My personal feeling is that there is little use in feeling guilty generally (at least on it's own), let alone feeling guilty for things in the past that happened generations ago, that we weren't a part of, and can't change. I don't see what it serves.

I think it's important to recognise and remember what has happened in the past, and particularly to recognise how it shapes and impacts society today. I think what is important is the actions and attitudes that we have today, how we try to right the wrongs of the past, and being mature enough to recognise how the past disadvantages/advantages different groups of people. I think if there is anything to feel guilty about, it is that we don't do enough today to address that disadvantage/advantage balance.

 

[Clueless Git]

Hmmmm ...

Chinese grass has a lot to answer for.

 

[rainforests1]

While we're on the subject, if the United States starts a nuclear war that wipes out much of the world(both parties are more than capable of it), who does the collective guilt apply to?

Also, Roosevelt's creations the World Bank and International Monetary Fund have done policies that have caused horrible suffering to the people of Africa among other places. Where does the collective guilt go for that?

You might want to be a little more informed about differentiating between racial/ethnic/national groups. Genghis Khan and Mao come from the same racial/ethnic/national groups as much as Mao and the Emperor of Japan do, or as a Sioux and an Englishman do.

Your premise is flawed in other ways too. For example, a lot of collective guilt is imposed on the Japanese for what they did in China. And rightfully so, IMO

I said they were both Asian. I never said they're related. We read much different sources. I've never read of collective guilt being imposed on the Japanese.

 

[rainforests1]

And I think we are interested more in slavery more than, say, Genghis Kahn, because slavery is part of our own personal, relatively recent, history.

Yet Mao(estimates generally say 60 million deaths) is ignored. He's more recent. Timing has nothing to do with it.

 

[Clueless Git]

Yet Mao(estimates generally say 60 million deaths) is ignored. He's more recent. Timing has nothing to do with it.

The focus on sufficiently aged wrongs may indicate that timing has an awfull lot to do with it.

Not been a word about reperation to Vietnam, Korea, Afganistan, Iraq or any other very recent wrongs done, has there?

 

[Mischief]

I said they were both Asian. I never said they're related. We read much different sources. I've never read of collective guilt being imposed on the Japanese.

You say "they were both Asian" as though that makes them belong to the same ethnic/racial group. I don't think you have any understanding of how many very disparate ethnic, racial, religious, etc. groups there are that just happen to all be located on one huge continent. You're not alone in that, of course; many Americans can't distinguish between a Sikh and an Arab.

Yet Mao(estimates generally say 60 million deaths) is ignored. He's more recent. Timing has nothing to do with it.

Yes, we do read much different sources if you are ignorant about collective guilt being imposed on the Japanese and think that Mao is ignored. I'm not quite sure how you could have missed all that.

 

[Mischief]

Not been a word about reperation to Vietnam, Korea, Afganistan, Iraq or any other very recent wrongs done, has there?

That could quite possibly be because the subject of this thread is people who are our fellow citizens who have been terribly disadvantaged by what we as a society did/continue to do to those in our midst.

If you want to discuss the issue of one country's obligations of reparation to another country, maybe you could start a thread about that.

 

[Clueless Git]

If you want to discuss the issue of one country's obligations of reparation to another country, maybe you could start a thread about that.

I don't understand how the principle(s) of right, or wrong, on the two issues could possibly differ.

 

[Mischief]

I don't understand how the principle(s) of right, or wrong, on the two issues could possibly differ.

Then maybe you should start the thread.

 

[rainforests1]

For the reasons others have stated, I don't think it is that relevant that only 1.4% of white Americans owned slaves, since the majority of the rest of society supported it, thought it was the right thing to do and wanted it to continue.

My understanding about the 1800's(Howard Zinn's book A People's History of the United States goes into this) is most white Americans were poor and were not treated well. Many worked 16 hour days. They probably didn't think much about slavery considering they had their own problems to worry about. You obviously weren't alive during this time period, so we probably shouldn't be commenting about this era much since we're all ignorant.

 

[Mischief]

You obviously weren't alive during this time period, so we probably shouldn't be commenting about this era much since we're all ignorant.

And yet you started this thread. Ah, the irony.

 

[rainforests1]

You say "they were both Asian" as though that makes them belong to the same ethnic/racial group. I don't think you have any understanding of how many very disparate ethnic, racial, religious, etc. groups there are that just happen to all be located on one huge continent. You're not alone in that, of course; many Americans can't distinguish between a Sikh and an Arab.




Yes, we do read much different sources if you are ignorant about collective guilt being imposed on the Japanese and think that Mao is ignored. I'm not quite sure how you could have missed all that.

You love arguing about the same subject over and over again, almost repeating what you had previously said. I'd say Hitler is mentioned 200 times more than Mao is, despite Mao being a far bigger murderer. That's all I have to say about this.

 

[rainforests1]

And yet you started this thread. Ah, the irony.

The thread is in regards to collective guilt, which any person can comment on regardless of their knowledge of 1800's. No irony involved at all.

 

[FortyTwo]

My understanding about the 1800's(Howard Zinn's book A People's History of the United States goes into this) is most white Americans were poor and were not treated well. Many worked 16 hour days. They probably didn't think much about slavery considering they had their own problems to worry about. You obviously weren't alive during this time period, so we probably shouldn't be commenting about this era much since we're all ignorant.

Sorry, but there's no way to justify the idea that somehow white Americans were subject to just as cruel treatment as blacks during this time period.

I mean, it sucked for everyone, but you can't try to diminish slavery, in either a past or present context, simply by pointing out the terrible things that happened to white people as well. That's a red herring. It'd be like saying white privilege doesn't apply in our modern times simply because some white people are homeless or unemployed.

Take a look at what was actually going on and not just the minute details that support a single argument.

Also, I'd suggest against trying to cite A People's History of the United States for this argument, which, from what I can find on it, actually sounds like it tells a pretty fair story of what was going on.

 

[Blobbenstein]

If I feel guilty about something, if I make 20 other people feel guilty about it, have I done my bit, and need not feel guilty any more?

 

[kibbleforlola]

My understanding about the 1800's(Howard Zinn's book A People's History of the United States goes into this) is most white Americans were poor and were not treated well. Many worked 16 hour days. They probably didn't think much about slavery considering they had their own problems to worry about. You obviously weren't alive during this time period, so we probably shouldn't be commenting about this era much since we're all ignorant.

Most white Americans, where? South, North, West? These were distinct regions at the time with distinct cultural biases. Treated poorly by whom? The answer to that would be other white Americans, and still not as badly as slaves. And yes, they did think about slavery, as the abolishment of slavery meant that they no longer held authority over a minority group. There was a lot of race panic at the time - this is clearly documented. Even emancipationists employed racist dialogue at times.

 

[Mischief]

You love arguing about the same subject over and over again, almost repeating what you had previously said. I'd say Hitler is mentioned 200 times more than Mao is, despite Mao being a far bigger murderer. That's all I have to say about this.

That's funny, since I think most of us could predict that any thread you start or contribute to will eventually turn into a discussion of one of your handful of pet subjects.

The majority of Americans are still European or of European descent, so in the U.S. topics involving Europe or North America will take precedence over topics concerning the *less important* parts of the world. We're pretty insular that way.

 

[FortyTwo]

You love arguing about the same subject over and over again, almost repeating what you had previously said. I'd say Hitler is mentioned 200 times more than Mao is, despite Mao being a far bigger murderer. That's all I have to say about this.

In America, or the Western world actually (I'd even go as far as to say this applies to much of the East as well) people probably aren't going to understand collective guilt in regards to Mao considering he was a very distant and irrelevant figure as far as those societies go.

In fact, I doubt China even feels too much collective guilt over Mao, considering his regime is more or less still intact, if toned down somewhat.

On the other hand, slavery in America is something very recent that had long-term effects which are still with us today in a tangible and overwhelmingly negative way. The same goes for Hitler. I don't think it's hypocritical as an American to make a bigger deal out of Hitler or slavery than Mao or Genghis Khan.

 

[Mischief]

The thread is in regards to collective guilt, which any person can comment on regardless of their knowledge of 1800's. No irony involved at all.

Of course there is - you are claiming there's no need to feel badly because it was just great to be a slave.

 

[kibbleforlola]

The thread is in regards to collective guilt, which any person can comment on regardless of their knowledge of 1800's. No irony involved at all.

Actually, I'd argue that you can't talk about collective guilt felt over an event without actually knowing about the event.