Will capitalism ever end?

[Hashtag_Eevee]

Will capitalism ever end? Do we need to abuse bees in order to create enough food for humanity, even in a vegan world?

We abuse bees to grow lots of our food, like almonds. It can cause colony collapse disorder. Just questions on my mind. Also, how would we accommodate bees like honeybees in a theoretical vegan world, without causing environmental problems? Honeybees can escape into natural environment, causing problems bc we've bred then to overproduction honey and other things.

 

[Hashtag_Eevee]

Sorry this is sorta random

 

[Brian W]

We abuse bees to grow lots of our food, like almonds. It can cause colony collapse disorder. Just questions on my mind. Also, how would we accommodate bees like honeybees in a theoretical vegan world, without causing environmental problems? Honeybees can escape into natural environment, causing problems bc we've bred then to overproduction honey and other things.

In a vegan world we wouldn't be exploiting bees at all and in the present capitalist world, bees are endangered, not overpopulated.

 

[Brian W]

In a vegan world we wouldn't be exploiting bees at all and presently, bees are endangered, not overpopulated.

 

[Lou]

Do we need to abuse bees in order to create enough food for humanity, even in a vegan world?

probably not. but it would require a huge shift in our agricultural practices.

But we don't have to make that huge shift all at once. and its my understanding that our agricultural practices really do need reform - like in a huge way.

And it wouldn't have to be without the help of captialism. Land use reforms, taxation policy, subsidies, Zoning, and other laws/policies could shift things. There might even be just as much money to be made and food costs might even remain stable. For instance if small farms made more money at the expense of the big corporations.

I'd love to see subsidies for meat and dairy to end. Sure meat and dairy prices would go up but then only meat and dairy eaters would be supporting those industries.

The reason we have to truck honeybees to the almond trees is because monoculture is what everyone thinks is the most cost effective technique. And since almonds are only fertile for a period of weeks, a native bee population can't service the huge number of trees that are grown in one place.

And although there are lots of benefits to monoculture there are also lots of problems and even costs. Fuel costs are the most obvious. when all your almonds are grown in California, almost everyone else has to pay for the shipping.

A lot of this requires government action. The ag industry has many politicians in their pockets - and they like the status quo. But people are waking up. and in many cases reforms like the ones needed for climate change will also help animals

 

[ewomack]

"It's easier to imagine the end of the world than it is to imagine the end of capitalism," attributed to either Jameson or Žižek. I'm not sure that I agree, but I think many might not, given everything, see feasible alternatives at this point. I myself don't know at all, but it's an interesting question to ask.

 

[Lou]

Capitalism in and of itself is not bad. its just the humans that are bad.

I read a book years ago that said that Capitalism and almost everything else we deem as "bad"* all arose about 10000 years ago with the advent of wheat cultivation. Was that Sapiens?

*war, poverty, menial labor, jobs, taxes, disease....

 

[ewomack]

Humans aren't all bad, they are various shades of bad and good with a lot of obliviousness, willed ignorance, and confirmation bias melded together. They can also be philanthropic, understanding, and compassionate. They can also, of course, also be downright nasty. Sometimes all at once simultaneously. We're bizarre creatures brimming with contradictions.

One could make an argument that capitalism itself isn't bad, and I would largely agree, but perhaps the current, arguably vehement form, of capitalism may be stretching the bounds, in certain cases, of what is good for us as a species. Mixed capitalism, which mashes elements of free market economics, libertarianism, socialism, and private property together in a political moosh seems more humane and sustainable than subverting everything into endless growth and profit without a lot of regard for the consequences. Capitalism has a bad habit of ignoring or subverting spillover costs and that can reach a state that one could call "bad."

 

[beancounter]

Bees are exploited under socialism and communism too...

 

[Lou]

Elizabeth Warren (my favorite senator) often discusses capitalism.

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Markets without rules is about the rich take it all, it’s about the powerful get all of it. And that’s what’s gone wrong in America.​

 

[Hashtag_Eevee]

Will capitalism ever end? Do we need to abuse bees in order to create enough food for humanity, even in a vegan world?

We abuse bees to grow lots of our food, like almonds. It can cause colony collapse disorder. Just questions on my mind. Also, how would we accommodate bees like honeybees in a theoretical vegan world, without causing environmental problems? Honeybees can escape into natural environment, causing problems bc we've bred then to overproduction honey and other things.

Just to specify these are two different questions

 

[500channelsurfer]

Here's that recurring bee video that I found so insightful

For Hashtag_Eevee's bigger questions: Don't the other bee species besides honey bees also fertilize pants? Lots of insects including butterflies do.

The biggest problem is monoculture. Polyculture can exist under capitalism or any other system. It is often said that capitalism is the worst economic system, except for all the others. Sustainable agricultural systems are the ultimate answer. Agricultura is most fundamentally what defines the human being as a species, as we made that change 10000 years ago.

 

[Lou]

It is often said that capitalism is the worst economic system, except for all the others.

That is the first time I've heard that said. What is often repeated is paraphrase of a line attributed to Winston Churchilll, “democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”

Sustainable agricultural systems are the ultimate answer.

One of the solutions. There are a lot of things that fall under that heading. Many have not even been tried yet

Agricultura is most fundamentally what defines the human being as a species, as we made that change 10000 years ago.

Not so sure about that. I'd argue for walking upright which occurred more than 3 million years ago. Although there are a few other species that walk upright. Or maybe tool use. but that is not something totally unique to humans. Fire? Maybe fire. There is evidence of hominids using fire as far back as 2 million years ago.

Agriculture is an interesting invention. It enabled the creation of civilization. and with civilization we get everything else: capitalism, war, Slavery, livestock production, Pollution, medicine ....

 

[majorbloodnok]

Agricultura is most fundamentally what defines the human being as a species, as we made that change 10000 years ago.

Not so sure about that. I'd argue for walking upright which occurred more than 3 million years ago. Although there are a few other species that walk upright. Or maybe tool use. but that is not something totally unique to humans. Fire? Maybe fire. There is evidence of hominids using fire as far back as 2 million years ago.

Agriculture is an interesting invention. It enabled the creation of civilization. and with civilization we get everything else: capitalism, war, Slavery, livestock production, Pollution, medicine ....

Not sure I'd agree either. Agriculture is strictly an innovation rather than an invention, but there are other species that "farm" - ants farming aphids being the most easily recognisable example. It certainly enabled the evolution of civilisation, but it certainly wasn't the cause.

I would suggest the one thing that fundamentally sets humans apart from all other species is the storing of information for the benefit of subsequent generations. Whilst that is most obvious with the advent of writing, it can be seen much further back than that in the form of drawings. That particular skill allows individuals to pool their collective knowledge, meaning no-one has to know everything and that knowledge can be advanced in multiple directions at once by the use of experts.

That's definitely a bit of a sidestep from the thread's title, but I'd suggest if collective working is part of the human modus operandi and if a better alternative form of collective working to capitalism can be laid out in such a way that it's accepted by society in general then yes, I can see an end to capitalism. That's a big "if", though.

 

[Lou]

Not sure I'd agree either. Agriculture is strictly an innovation rather than an invention, but there are other species that "farm" - ants farming aphids being the most easily recognisable example. It certainly enabled the evolution of civilisation, but it certainly wasn't the cause.

This actually isn't my idea. Many historians conclude that is was the advent of agriculture that allowed the formation of civilization. I've even read at least two books that is wasn't even agriculture in general but specially grain production.

I would suggest the one thing that fundamentally sets humans apart from all other species is the storing of information for the benefit of subsequent generations. Whilst that is most obvious with the advent of writing, it can be seen much further back than that in the form of drawings. That particular skill allows individuals to pool their collective knowledge, meaning no-one has to know everything and that knowledge can be advanced in multiple directions at once by the use of experts.

And back to my point. Some of the earliest examples of writing were used to record transactions of wheat and sheep.

That's definitely a bit of a sidestep from the thread's title, but I'd suggest if collective working is part of the human modus operandi and if a better alternative form of collective working to capitalism can be laid out in such a way that it's accepted by society in general then yes, I can see an end to capitalism. That's a big "if", though.

The OP posed the question: When will Capitalism end.? Perhaps a better question is, when will civilization end?

 

[500channelsurfer]

This actually isn't my idea. Many historians conclude that is was the advent of agriculture that allowed the formation of civilization. I've even read at least two books that is wasn't even agriculture in general but specially grain production.

Agreed; the advent of mass agriculture and more specifically grain production more accurately describes the beginning of civilization than the human species.

 

[majorbloodnok]

This actually isn't my idea. Many historians conclude that is was the advent of agriculture that allowed the formation of civilization. I've even read at least two books that is wasn't even agriculture in general but specially grain production.



And back to my point. Some of the earliest examples of writing were used to record transactions of wheat and sheep.


The OP posed the question: When will Capitalism end.? Perhaps a better question is, when will civilization end?

I can live with that line of reasoning. I might have been tempted to explore the subject a bit more fully but I’ve already sent us veering a bit too far off the original subject so perhaps a discussion best left for another day.

 

[g0rph]

Slightly random here, but yes, capitalism will end. Maybe sooner than we all think. Maybe not.

My gut feeling is that A.I. will end it.
Or more specifically the technological singularity.
Once an A.I. is created that can 1. Rewrite its own code 2. Improve itself, and 3) Reaches roughly human level awareness, then all bets are off.
Hopefully we will have steered it in the right direction.
But imagine this.
Maybe you use Photoshop?
People work on improving the code for Photoshop all the time. It takes 10s of thousands of man-hours and a new version is released.
But imagine if an A.I. could do that coding. Each iteration could take minutes, or even seconds.
So once an A.I. reaches human level intelligence, it wouldn't be long before it reached an intelligence that would equate it to a human and humans to ants...
Your guess is as good as mine as to what happens next, but I'm not sure capitalism will play much of a role...or I could be completely wrong.

If you're interested in this stuff, I suggest looking up Nick Bostrom's "Superintelligence"

It's interesting stuff.

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