Switching back-Animal products & veganism

[fakei]

You are joking?

Why?

 

[g0rph]

Why the need to see things so black and white?

If everything else is equal it may rank closer to the ideal than other lifestyles but veganism doesn't end all animal suffering and killing or environmental impact of humans, not even from diet.

It's not like piscitarianism, flexitarianism or vegetarianism are deprived of meaning and effort.

Vegetarianism, at least in theory, does not require the killing of animals and keeping well treated farm animals is not different from having pets.

You have an odd understanding of "black and white".

I have never said that cutting out, by going pescatarian or vegetarian or even flexitarian is not meaningful.

But they do mean that there isn't the same drive to reduce animal suffering.
And as such are more likely to be given up.

The moment I understood, I went vegan (pretty much). It's a red pill. An epiphany.
Shoving a fist up a cows bottom, taking her child to slaughter, enslaving her...is not a choice someone who has had that epiphany takes. Nor is taking 0-day old baby chickens and throwing them on a conveyor belt to be crushed alive...sometimes getting thrown out half dead.
And fish feel pain. No, I am also not "quite" as bothered by fish suffering as I am mammal suffering, but it is suffering nonetheless. And sure, I do think pescatarianism is a good start!
And even if going flexitarian helps...but if something is "morally wrong", then surely I avoid doing it altogether...not just 6 days a week??

The choice to give it all up as far is practicable is a life-changing moment of clarity.

 

[g0rph]

Vegetarianism like veganism does not require death of the animal for nutrition, deaths are in both case indirect consequence.

Dairy industry is cruel but it could be made acceptable if calves, male chicks and retired hens were not killed and hens lived in a decent place. And one way to solve this would be to employ these animals, like in a project I posted in another thread, in converting food waste into fertilizer.

You realise how unlikely this is?

Where on earth would all the bulls and roosters go? It's not like they can live in large groups together.

But it's besides the point. We don't need to exploit them in that way at all.
And to be honest...drinking baby milk from another species, once it hits you...is fecking weird!

 

[fakei]

You have an odd understanding of "black and white".

I have never said that cutting out, by going pescatarian or vegetarian or even flexitarian is not meaningful.

But they do mean that there isn't the same drive to reduce animal suffering.
And as such are more likely to be given up.

The moment I understood, I went vegan (pretty much). It's a red pill. An epiphany.
Shoving a fist up a cows bottom, taking her child to slaughter, enslaving her...is not a choice someone who has had that epiphany takes. Nor is taking 0-day old baby chickens and throwing them on a conveyor belt to be crushed alive...sometimes getting thrown out half dead.
And fish feel pain. No, I am also not "quite" as bothered by fish suffering as I am mammal suffering, but it is suffering nonetheless. And sure, I do think pescatarianism is a good start!
And even if going flexitarian helps...but if something is "morally wrong", then surely I avoid doing it altogether...not just 6 days a week??

The choice to give it all up as far is practicable is a life-changing moment of clarity.

One moment you say veganism is not natural and you don't know if you'll be able to keep it, the other you say anyone who is not a vegan doesn't have drive enough. You like to shoot in every direction?

 

[fakei]

You realise how unlikely this is?

Where on earth would all the bulls and roosters go? It's not like they can live in large groups together.

But it's besides the point. We don't need to exploit them in that way at all.
And to be honest...drinking baby milk from another species, once it hits you...is fecking weird!

A video in another thread shows part of it is possible. It's better than nothing. And looks less unlikely than mankind going vegan overnight.

Some years ago an article said the decline in meat consumption in the US was being driven by flexitarians, not vegans.

 

[g0rph]

One moment you say veganism is not natural and you don't know if you'll be able to keep it, the other you say anyone who is not a vegan doesn't have drive enough. You like to shoot in every direction?

Strawman.

Yes.
And if you bother to really read and understand, you'll know why I say those things.
Just remember what this post is about.

 

[g0rph]

A video in another thread shows part of it is possible. It's better than nothing. And looks less unlikely than mankind going vegan overnight.

Really.
It is literally impossible. And also not relevant.
And I have NEVER said it is realistic that mankind will go vegan overnight.

Some years ago an article said the decline in meat consumption in the US was being driven by flexitarians, not vegans.

And?
As I have repeatedly said...It is a good thing that people even cut down.
However, if you care to understand the point of "this" discussion, you might realise why I have said the things I have.

Goodbye.

 

[fakei]

Really.
It is literally impossible. And also not relevant.
And I have NEVER said it is realistic that mankind will go vegan overnight.

If it's being implemented successfully, like the video shows, it is possible. Also, besides constantly saying veganism is unnatural and even making it look difficult to bear, you also wrote in another thread that you don't believe people will give up slaughtering animals unless some new technology like lab meat will make it possible, plus you also said you don't find most people open to become vegan, something I also noticed to be honest. But then you bluntly reject an alternative to mitigate the issue in a way that has actually partially been implemented with success the same way you bluntly reject evidence that the negative things you write about vegan diet may not be right.

At some point someone may be tempted to think that you either suffer from Groucho's "I'm against it" syndrome, or all you really care is about this big sacrifice you are making and all the rest is irrelevant.

 

[jalan]

Was told that those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan

So I was on Reddit and I shared in a vegan subreddit about how I was transitioning back to veganism. One user commented that they thought I was confusing a plant-based diet with veganism, and that in their opinion, those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan. I feel very discouraged. I know this is a sentiment that some vegans hold. I just really care and want to be successful in living a plant-based, vegan lifestyle. What are your thoughts?

Hi wild0se2, my thought is that everyone has an opinion and while that's fine, be true to yourself. You know what you're striving for, so don't be discouraged by another opinion. Look at what you know, what you've experienced and what you ultimately want to achieve and continue that journey...

jalan

 

[Tom L.]

Dairy industry is cruel but it could be made acceptable if calves, male chicks and retired hens were not killed and hens lived in a decent place. And one way to solve this would be to employ these animals, like in a project I posted in another thread, in converting food waste into fertilizer.

(I've only quoted part of your original post) I agree: it is theoretically possible to produce milk and eggs without the suffering and premature death of animals. But of course, the cost of supporting these animals for their full natural lifespan would have to be passed on to consumers of the milk and eggs. I'm thinking very few people would be willing to pay that much. And not only that: there would be an ever-present risk that a milk or egg producer would be tempted to falsely market their milk or eggs as "humanely produced" in order to get top dollar for them, while giving their animals only conventional care. Even with the modest legal protections farm animals have now, there are incidents of inadequate care.

@gorph

And to be honest...drinking baby milk from another species, once it hits you...is fecking weird!

Yep! But a child probably won't think about that; I certainly didn't, even though hunting bothered me from a very early age... long before I went pescetarian. Conditioning from your earliest years to accept something can be hard to throw off.

 

[fakei]

(I've only quoted part of your original post) I agree: it is theoretically possible to produce milk and eggs without the suffering and premature death of animals. But of course, the cost of supporting these animals for their full natural lifespan would have to be passed on to consumers of the milk and eggs. I'm thinking very few people would be willing to pay that much. And not only that: there would be an ever-present risk that a milk or egg producer would be tempted to falsely market their milk or eggs as "humanely produced" in order to get top dollar for them, while giving their animals only conventional care. Even with the modest legal protections farm animals have now, there are incidents of inadequate care.

Not necessarily, the project from the video below employs retired hens, saving them from culling, maybe a similar thing could be made with the males. Of course genders had to be separated to avoid reproduction and severe fighting among males, although I don't know how it is with roosters. I was suggesting a similar thing for milk production.

In biology there is a thing called mutualism, when two organisms benefit each other, right now human relations with animals are in general of exploitation, that doesn't mean a mutualist one may not be possible.

Obviously the safest way of avoiding moral dilemas and entanglements is not to consume animal products or have pets. The problem is that this is not easy for the majority, even for people who feel strongly about animals. Things may change with time but it is unrealistic that things will change completely in a few generations.

 

[shyvas]

Why?

You are promoting vegetarianism on a vegan forum.

 

[Tom L.]

@fakei Interesting! I knew the droppings from hens is good fertilizer for plants.

 

[fakei]

You are promoting vegetarianism on a vegan forum.

It took you all that time to explain ?

Don't worry, I'm going to find another forum to discuss.

 

[g0rph]

@gorph Yep! But a child probably won't think about that; I certainly didn't, even though hunting bothered me from a very early age... long before I went pescetarian. Conditioning from your earliest years to accept something can be hard to throw off.

No a child is easily indoctrinated into thinking it's normal, and okay.

But even just before I transitioned I realised it was neither of those things.

I of course dislike hunting, but it is at least a reasonably understandable thing to do considering human history.
Using cow, goat or sheep milk may have been an aid to survival way back when, but it is completely unnecessary and a weird thing to do.

Adults don't need baby milk. Especially not cross-species. There is a reason why lactose intolerance is a normal state for adults...
Once weened, we do not need it.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Vegetarianism like veganism does not require death of the animal for nutrition, deaths are in both case indirect consequence.

Dairy industry is cruel but it could be made acceptable if calves, male chicks and retired hens were not killed and hens lived in a decent place. And one way to solve this would be to employ these animals, like in a project I posted in another thread, in converting food waste into fertilizer.

I just want to say that it seems a bit harsh that this post get 3 of the red crosses. I suppose the red crosses just mean you disagree but it always looks a bit harsh.

I suppose what do you expect maybe for posting a not vegan statement on vegan forum dot org but it looks like a harmless post.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

You are promoting vegetarianism on a vegan forum.

There was an active vegetarian forum (possibly called Veggie Views or something like that) that was acquired by and incorporated this forum I think about 5 - 9 years ago. Given that that acquisition killed off one of the very few vegetarian forums, it was discussed at the time I believe that vegetarian posts would be allowed to continue to allow the vegetarians on that other forum to post here as their posting space has been acquired. I am not sure if that still holds. I can't remember what was really discussed there.

You've been around on these forums for some years I believe, so perhaps you remember something.

To be fair there are a few other options, there is Veggie Boards and maybe 1 or 2 others, but perhaps nothing as good as this in amount of replies etc.

Of course, you do have reddit and social media but those have algorithms forcing clickbait videos, adverts and outrage down your throat while supporting the big tech companies that range from mediocre to downright evil so quite understandable if people want to avoid a support instead a small or medium sized organization like this one.

The membership rules say

MEMBERSHIP RULES

1. Being vegan is not a requirement for membership, but VeganForum is a vegan lifestyle community where a vegan lifestyle is promoted. Therefore, we will not allow promotion of incompatible practices.

It also says "Violators of 1 - 5 will be banned".

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I watched the video and this may be a rare example of something that possibly isn't vegan - because the animal is being used for a (possibly commercial) purpose - but that is actually ethical and making the world a better place.

In theory, it would make sense if these animals were only cared after until they died, but that's not an option here, so it's either this or killing the animals.

Saying this is ethical (just a personal opinion of mine) is assuming that the animals really are being saved from culling and that the owners really do look after them when they are old which may or may not be true, as no-one is really watching what quality they have towards the end of their life and how they die, someone that is often missing from these type of reports and yet seems critical to me.

Also, this type of thing - if it is necessary - is only necessary because of the existence of factory farming. In a vegan world, with not a single person eating meat or eggs, this type of thing probably wouldn't exist. Wouldn't need to exist.

 

[Lou]

Some years ago an article said the decline in meat consumption in the US was being driven by flexitarians, not vegans.

meat consumption is not declining. Well to be fair beef consumption is declining but chicken consumption is increasing.

 

[Tom L.]

There was an active vegetarian forum (possibly called Veggie Views or something like that) that was acquired by and incorporated this forum I think about 5 - 9 years ago. Given that that acquisition killed off one of the very few vegetarian forums, it was discussed at the time I believe that vegetarian posts would be allowed to continue to allow the vegetarians on that other forum to post here as their posting space has been acquired. I am not sure if that still holds. I can't remember what was really discussed there.

You've been around on these forums for some years I believe, so perhaps you remember something.

To be fair there are a few other options, there is Veggie Boards and maybe 1 or 2 others, but perhaps nothing as good as this in amount of replies etc.....

(bold/italic emphasis mine) Yep. Veggieboards.com predated both VeggieViews and this forum, and is still around. I think I've been a member there since 2002. But ever since it changed ownership, it hasn't been nearly as active, and almost all of the old-timers have apparently left (or at least aren't posting anymore).