Switching back-Animal products & veganism

[wildr0se2]

Was told that those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan

So I was on Reddit and I shared in a vegan subreddit about how I was transitioning back to veganism. One user commented that they thought I was confusing a plant-based diet with veganism, and that in their opinion, those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan. I feel very discouraged. I know this is a sentiment that some vegans hold. I just really care and want to be successful in living a plant-based, vegan lifestyle. What are your thoughts?

 

[Lou]

I think it's mostly a matter of semantics. I always fall back on the definition of vegan from the Vegan Society. There are other definitions but I think the vegan society is IMHO the clearest, I think they are the most qualified to write a definition. Anyway their definition does not includes anything about time or timelines.

There are no vegan police, or vegan superpowers. No refs, and no rule books.

There is room for personal interpretations. But I don't think it's fair for people to project their ideals on others.

I don't think if a vegan backslides for a day he has to stop calling himself a vegan forever. I don't think a catholic who skips mass one day stops being a catholic. I don't think a football fan who misses a game is no longer a football fan.

I believe for vegans, football fans, and Catholics it's a matter of intention. this is even in the definition of veganism when they include the words "strive" and "possible and practical".

I know this isn't a popular sentiment but I really do believe that the main thing is your (honest) intentions.

So.... for as long as you " really care and want to be successful in living a plant-based, vegan lifestyle", then you are a vegan. until you don't feel that way.

Y'know some things are process based and some things are product based. I don't think vegans are a product - I think it's a process.
it's been put this way: veganism is not a destination. it's a journey. Compassion is the destination.

 

[Second Summer]

One user commented that they thought I was confusing a plant-based diet with veganism, and that in their opinion, those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan.

Haha, I'm sorry, but this is just unintentional comedy And it demonstrates yet again the zealot character of Reddit vegans. Saying someone "were never vegan" is an unintelligent response, akin to something a classic sect leader would say about a member who's left the faith. It's said probably because they think veganism is such a perfect philosophy that ex-vegans can't even exist. Ridiculous.

 

[shyvas]

Was told that those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan

So I was on Reddit and I shared in a vegan subreddit about how I was transitioning back to veganism. One user commented that they thought I was confusing a plant-based diet with veganism, and that in their opinion, those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan. I feel very discouraged. I know this is a sentiment that some vegans hold. I just really care and want to be successful in living a plant-based, vegan lifestyle. What are your thoughts?

The following article that relates to various studies about vegans who have switched back to an omni style diet. There are various opinions and views. At the end of the day, it's only your opinion or experience that counts.

Do 84% Of Vegans And Vegetarians Really Go Back To Eating Meat?

A popular 2014 study found that most vegans and vegetarians "quit" their plant-based diets and go back to eating meat. But how accurate is it?

plantbasednews.org

 

[Tom L.]

Was told that those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan

So I was on Reddit and I shared in a vegan subreddit about how I was transitioning back to veganism. One user commented that they thought I was confusing a plant-based diet with veganism, and that in their opinion, those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan. I feel very discouraged. I know this is a sentiment that some vegans hold. I just really care and want to be successful in living a plant-based, vegan lifestyle. What are your thoughts?

Hmmm. It is true that veganism incorporates more than diet: vegans seek to avoid other things whose production exploits animals- such as some kinds of clothing and cosmetics. But I think all vegans agree that if someone fails to resist temptation sometimes, that doesn't mean they're no longer vegan.

 

[silva]

There are people that go vegan with good intent and for a variety of reasons feel they can't keep it up. Some feel so torn about failing their guilt causes them to shut down the idea completely.
Then there are those who go so strongly 'vegan' and it's just mostly a show---like the attention ***** Russel Brand

People are like that, it doesn't really have to do with veganism itself.
There are also different levels of commitment.
I'd personally rather have people go 'almost vegan' than obsess so much they quit thinking about it altogether

 

[Graeme M]

I suppose this is why I object to the idea there even ARE vegans. It's an ethics, consequent to a moral attitude, not a cult. All that matters is what you want to do and how you can live best aligned with the principles. And let's be honest, how that goes is no-one else's business.

I kinda think the term "vegan" should be used to describe people who advocate for veganism, rather than as a blanket term to describe people who adopt the ethics. Rather like the abolitionists and suffragists, whose aim was to change a social moral conscience and create a different social arrangement, not create more abolitionists and suffragists. Once they achieved their aims, both disappeared. In fact, suffrage had some notable similarities to veganism and animal rights activism - suffragists wanted to achieve suffrage peacefully whereas the suffragettes did so with direct action and violence.

 

[silva]

I suppose this is why I object to the idea there even ARE vegans. It's an ethics, consequent to a moral attitude, not a cult. All that matters is what you want to do and how you can live best aligned with the principles. And let's be honest, how that goes is no-one else's business.

I kinda think the term "vegan" should be used to describe people who advocate for veganism, rather than as a blanket term to describe people who adopt the ethics. Rather like the abolitionists and suffragists, whose aim was to change a social moral conscience and create a different social arrangement, not create more abolitionists and suffragists. Once they achieved their aims, both disappeared. In fact, suffrage had some notable similarities to veganism and animal rights activism - suffragists wanted to achieve suffrage peacefully whereas the suffragettes did so with direct action and violence.

While I don't have a blog, or protest at meat producers.... I, by the very nature of being vegan, advocates for veganism. What the heck do you even mean by 'people who adopt the ethics'? Like those who completely internalize it and never have any interactions with others?
Whether peaceful or direct action, both are striving to achieve the same results.

 

[Graeme M]

While I don't have a blog, or protest at meat producers.... I, by the very nature of being vegan, advocates for veganism. What the heck do you even mean by 'people who adopt the ethics'? Like those who completely internalize it and never have any interactions with others?

Early adopters, such as vegans doing advocacy, are indeed doing both. But equally, as more people are convinced to adopt vegan ethics and change their behaviours, it's unlikely all of those people become advocates. Why would they? The ultimate goal is for everyone to be "vegan" (ie living consistently with the ethics), just as we do with human rights. But most everyday folk who live consistently with human rights do so because they either are expected to or it's the law. They aren't out there protesting/advocating etc. It's a status quo needing no further advocacy.

In other words, the ultimate goal is for everyone just to go about their lives not as vegans, but everyday folk whose behaviours reflect the ethical principles. It's only when we have a failure of the principles of an ethics to achieve some good that some people become advocates/activists - the rest of society don't do that. Eventually when the new moral attitude is achieved society wide, the need for advocacy diminishes.

I'm proposing the same for veganism. "Vegans" are people who both are vegan and advocate for veganism. Everyone else can just choose to adopt the principles and act accordingly. And whether they do or the extent to which they do that is their business, no-one else's. Until such time as the principles (and consequent behaviours) gain legal force, of course.

 

[g0rph]

Was told that those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan

So I was on Reddit and I shared in a vegan subreddit about how I was transitioning back to veganism. One user commented that they thought I was confusing a plant-based diet with veganism, and that in their opinion, those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan. I feel very discouraged. I know this is a sentiment that some vegans hold. I just really care and want to be successful in living a plant-based, vegan lifestyle. What are your thoughts?

I see it myself all the time on Reddit.
It's ********. But at the same time I know where it comes from (or at least I think so).
Influencer vegans and vegans who take it up for the trendy factor, or for other reasons

I always say that the ONLY reason to go vegan is because of one's feelings toward non-human animals.
Not health (leather is not unhealthy). Not environment (Hunting is not hurting the environment). And not fashion (for obvious reasons).
Oh and not religion (If your reason for doing something is NOT because you feel it's the right thing to do, but that it is written down as dogma, then you are not doing it for the right reasons).

But back to the point. Yes, it is totally possible to be a totally committed vegan and give it up. The main reason would be social pressure...family, friends. We need these people in our lives more than we need not to eat non-vegan food or buy non-vegan goods.

I have no idea if I will be vegan in 10 years. It's already having a massive strain on relationships. I hope I am. I want my actions to align with my morals. But I can't see the future.
The brain is a complicated thing. Small changes in brain chemistry can change people. Too much stress and not enough happiness can lead a person to do things they wouldn't normally do.
And as considering that the world is at least 95% non-vegan, it's easy to see someone, stressed, losing friends, losing a job even, just saying "**** it, I can't carry on like this" and reverting back to the cognitive dissonance...
It's easy to convince yourself that doing something you know you shouldn't...is okay...especially if everyone else is.

I was vegetarian for 14 years many years ago. And it all collapsed in one day. Partly because, if we are honest...vegetarian for the animals is like being against alcohol and drugs except at weekends.
And then I hunted for reasons to stay carnist...and did. Until a few years ago when I decided to think more deeply about the whole animal welfare thing.

And you know what...it was easy (staying carnist for many years).
The nature fallacy. Deep down it's a fallacy for sure. But yes, we are omnivores, have eaten animal protein for 2 or 3 hundred thousand years and until very recently would have found it almost impossible to give up animal products.
It's natural to hunt and scavenge for food, whether it be fruit, vegetables or animals. It's natural to use their by-products for clothing etc.
The reason we ought to go vegan is that even if that is natural, it is no longer necessary.
And paraphrasing a quote I heard years ago...

"When a necessary evil is no longer necessary...what is left?"

 

[Tom L.]

.....
I always say that the ONLY reason to go vegan is because of one's feelings toward non-human animals.
Not health (leather is not unhealthy). Not environment (Hunting is not hurting the environment). And not fashion (for obvious reasons).
Oh and not religion (If your reason for doing something is NOT because you feel it's the right thing to do, but that it is written down as dogma, then you are not doing it for the right reasons).

About the last point: I'm currently agnostic, and pray to any Creator who may exist fairly regularly- but I've often observed that many, if not most, people are fundamentally motivated to do good by their religion. You can still argue that this isn't a good reason, but there it is.

.....But back to the point. Yes, it is totally possible to be a totally committed vegan and give it up. The main reason would be social pressure...family, friends. We need these people in our lives more than we need not to eat non-vegan food or buy non-vegan goods.

I have no idea if I will be vegan in 10 years. It's already having a massive strain on relationships. I hope I am. I want my actions to align with my morals. But I can't see the future.
The brain is a complicated thing. Small changes in brain chemistry can change people. Too much stress and not enough happiness can lead a person to do things they wouldn't normally do.
And as considering that the world is at least 95% non-vegan, it's easy to see someone, stressed, losing friends, losing a job even, just saying "**** it, I can't carry on like this" and reverting back to the cognitive dissonance...
It's easy to convince yourself that doing something you know you shouldn't...is okay...especially if everyone else is.

I wish my relatives, friends, and (former) co-workers were vegan or vegetarian... or maybe even pescatarian. But I've still kept my relationships with them because they haven't given me any difficulty about my caring to an unusual degree about animals. If they had, I would have been okay about writing them off. (I haven't harangued them either, although I'm up-front about why I do or don't do certain generally-accepted things).

I don't think your veganism should be causing any sort of strain on your relationships. If it is, maybe the problem is with them- not with you.

I was vegetarian for 14 years many years ago. And it all collapsed in one day. Partly because, if we are honest...vegetarian for the animals is like being against alcohol and drugs except at weekends.

Well... yes. But limiting one's alcohol/drug use to 2 days a week is still somewhat less harmful to oneself than a 24/7 substance abuse problem. As I understand it, someone must still eventually get on the wagon and stay on it.

 

[g0rph]

About the last point: I'm currently agnostic, and pray to any Creator who may exist fairly regularly- but I've often observed that many, if not most, people are fundamentally motivated to do good by their religion. You can still argue that this isn't a good reason, but there it is.

Good for you.
The problem, as I see it.
Yes, I think most people are inherently good.
But as a famous person once said. "There are good people and evil people, but to make a good person do evil, takes religion".
I tend to agree.
And again. It's great that anyone is motivated to do good. But if it isn't what they want to do and motivated by dogma, then that could easily change.

I wish my relatives, friends, and (former) co-workers were vegan or vegetarian... or maybe even pescatarian. But I've still kept my relationships with them because they haven't given me any difficulty about my caring to an unusual degree about animals. If they had, I would have been okay about writing them off. (I haven't harangued them either, although I'm up-front about why I do or don't do certain generally-accepted things).

I don't think your veganism should be causing any sort of strain on your relationships. If it is, maybe the problem is with them- not with you.

The strain is going out. To friends, to restaurants... I no longer take part in the hands on BBQ experience at friends, and of course restaurants either have a vegan option or I am essentially sitting there with a beer. It's fine for me, but others get unsettled.
And of course now I only cook or buy vegan food... so "Can you get me some milk" is "Not really"...etc.

Well... yes. But limiting one's alcohol/drug use to 2 days a week is still somewhat less harmful to oneself than a 24/7 substance abuse problem. As I understand it, someone must still eventually get on the wagon and stay on it.

It's the point of the matter. A vegetarian who is not ignorant of the fact that the dairy industry and egg industry basically ARE the meat industry cannot have the same mindset as someone who has, essentially had the red-pill moment...the epiphany.
Yes, it's better than eating steak every week.

But here's a thing from my own mind...
I would be more disappointed in myself if I drank cows milk, than if I ate a rib-eye.

If I had to choose 1 or the other as to which was more inhumane...it's dairy or eggs.

 

[Lou]

If I had to choose 1 or the other as to which was more inhumane...it's dairy or eggs.

My first step on my vegan journey was to stop buying milk.

the cruelty in the dairy industry was the issue. And as a Californian I had driven past large dairy facilities.
it wasn't for a while before I realized that the cows that I drove by on rangeland would be shipped to stockyards and CFOs

 

[Jamie in Chile]

those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan.

This is basically false according to definition or common sense.

I do think there are some people who are less committed to in the first place, and therefore don't succeed, and that those with a deeper ethical conviction are more likely to succeed, so that is where this false comment might be coming from.

But basically you were vegan and can be again if you would like to.

 

[ewomack]

Was told that those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan

So I was on Reddit and I shared in a vegan subreddit about how I was transitioning back to veganism. One user commented that they thought I was confusing a plant-based diet with veganism, and that in their opinion, those who go back to eating animal products were never vegan. I feel very discouraged. I know this is a sentiment that some vegans hold. I just really care and want to be successful in living a plant-based, vegan lifestyle. What are your thoughts?

Take anything you read on forums with a grain, or maybe a large chunk, of salt. No one is an "expert" on these matters. No one holds the authoritative key to who really qualifies as "vegan" and who doesn't. Nonetheless, I understand why you feel discouraged. You reached out to people with a simple question and some of them lashed back with platitudes. Some "vegans" have sadly taken this dogmatic route and it has really done the word an enormous disservice. I don't bother with the word anymore. I honestly don't care whether anyone considers me "vegan" or not. I eat a diet that appears healthy and I try to cut down as much as possible on cruel food (I don't know the story behind everything I eat, unfortunately). Whether it ends up being "vegan" or not I no longer care. When eating at a restaurant with people I don't know very well, after ordering tofu or something vegan, I get asked the inevitable question: "so are you vegetarian?" These days, I simply say "I don't eat a lot of meat," which is true and usually ends the conversation quickly. I rarely use the words "vegetarian" or "vegan" anymore. They have mostly lost their meaning. You seem to be on the right path. Follow it if it feels right to you. Don't worry about what others think.

 

[Lou]

I rarely use the words "vegetarian" or "vegan" anymore. T

I understand where you are coming from.
For me, I'm proud to call myself vegan. and sometimes it prompts a discussion. And I welcome it. For me, it's a form of advocacy. there are plenty of bad examples of vegans - I want to be the good example. Answer legitimate questions. Be nice and friendly and not appear nutty.

I have been told I'm not vegan enough or not a real vegan. The first hundred times it happened it hurt my feelings. but I got used to it. and no longer try to defend myself. in my heart I'm vegan enough

 

[fakei]

I see it myself all the time on Reddit.
It's ********. But at the same time I know where it comes from (or at least I think so).
Influencer vegans and vegans who take it up for the trendy factor, or for other reasons

I always say that the ONLY reason to go vegan is because of one's feelings toward non-human animals.
Not health (leather is not unhealthy). Not environment (Hunting is not hurting the environment). And not fashion (for obvious reasons).
Oh and not religion (If your reason for doing something is NOT because you feel it's the right thing to do, but that it is written down as dogma, then you are not doing it for the right reasons).

But back to the point. Yes, it is totally possible to be a totally committed vegan and give it up. The main reason would be social pressure...family, friends. We need these people in our lives more than we need not to eat non-vegan food or buy non-vegan goods.

I have no idea if I will be vegan in 10 years. It's already having a massive strain on relationships. I hope I am. I want my actions to align with my morals. But I can't see the future.
The brain is a complicated thing. Small changes in brain chemistry can change people. Too much stress and not enough happiness can lead a person to do things they wouldn't normally do.
And as considering that the world is at least 95% non-vegan, it's easy to see someone, stressed, losing friends, losing a job even, just saying "**** it, I can't carry on like this" and reverting back to the cognitive dissonance...
It's easy to convince yourself that doing something you know you shouldn't...is okay...especially if everyone else is.

I was vegetarian for 14 years many years ago. And it all collapsed in one day. Partly because, if we are honest...vegetarian for the animals is like being against alcohol and drugs except at weekends.
And then I hunted for reasons to stay carnist...and did. Until a few years ago when I decided to think more deeply about the whole animal welfare thing.

And you know what...it was easy (staying carnist for many years).
The nature fallacy. Deep down it's a fallacy for sure. But yes, we are omnivores, have eaten animal protein for 2 or 3 hundred thousand years and until very recently would have found it almost impossible to give up animal products.
It's natural to hunt and scavenge for food, whether it be fruit, vegetables or animals. It's natural to use their by-products for clothing etc.
The reason we ought to go vegan is that even if that is natural, it is no longer necessary.
And paraphrasing a quote I heard years ago...

"When a necessary evil is no longer necessary...what is left?"

Why the need to see things so black and white?

If everything else is equal it may rank closer to the ideal than other lifestyles but veganism doesn't end all animal suffering and killing or environmental impact of humans, not even from diet.

It's not like piscitarianism, flexitarianism or vegetarianism are deprived of meaning and effort.

Vegetarianism, at least in theory, does not require the killing of animals and keeping well treated farm animals is not different from having pets.

 

[shyvas]

Vegetarianism, at least in theory, does not require the killing of animals and keeping well treated farm animals is not different from having pets.

Dairy is one of the most cruel industries.

 

[fakei]

Dairy is one of the most cruel industries.

Vegetarianism like veganism does not require death of the animal for nutrition, deaths are in both case indirect consequence.

Dairy industry is cruel but it could be made acceptable if calves, male chicks and retired hens were not killed and hens lived in a decent place. And one way to solve this would be to employ these animals, like in a project I posted in another thread, in converting food waste into fertilizer.

 

[shyvas]

Vegetarianism like veganism does not require death of the animal for nutrition, deaths are in both case indirect consequence.

Dairy industry is cruel but it could be made acceptable if calves, male chicks and retired hens were not killed and hens lived in a decent place. And one way to solve this would be to employ these animals, like in a project I posted in another thread, in converting food waste into fertilizer.

You are joking?