Please stop murdering plants!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Colas D

Forum Novice
Joined
Nov 10, 2020
Reaction score
10
Age
44
Location
Downpatrick
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
  2. Other
From RESEARCHGATE

"Abstract

Many people are attracted to the idea that plants experience phenomenal conscious states like pain, sensory awareness, or emotions like fear. If true, this would have wide-ranging moral implications for human behavior, including land development, farming, vegetarianism, and more. Determining whether plants have minds relies on the work of both empirical disciplines and philosophy. Epistemology should settle the standards for evidence of other minds, and science should inform our judgment about whether any plants meet those standards. We argue that evidence for other minds comes either from testimony, behavior, anatomy/physiology, or phylogeny. However, none of these provide evidence that plants have conscious mental states. Therefore, we conclude that there is no evidence that plants have minds in the sense relevant for morality."
Yes Brian, there are many scientists around there that believe that. However, there are also many that would strongly disagree with this statement.

What some scientists believe about the mind is sometimes absurd. For example, the majority of scientists are staunch materialists: they believe that the mind is nothing but the brain. Some of them believe that consciousness is an epiphenomenon that does not play any active role (a passive witness as it were). Others believe that consciousness is an illusion. In any case, all materialists believe that as a result, free will is an illusion; They all believe that free will does not exist at all. If you want to embrace materialist neurology Brian, you will need to deny free will. Which is, to say the least, problematic.
 

Colas D

Forum Novice
Joined
Nov 10, 2020
Reaction score
10
Age
44
Location
Downpatrick
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
  2. Other
From Anesthetics And Plants

"The question therefore arises: do plants feel pain and have consciousness? In this review, we discuss what can be learned from the effects of anesthetics in plants. For this, we describe the mechanisms and structural prerequisites for pain sensations in animals and show that plants lack the neural anatomy and all behaviors that would indicate pain. By explaining the ubiquitous and diverse effects of anesthetics, we discuss whether these substances provide any empirical or logical evidence for “plant consciousness” and whether it makes sense to study the effects of anesthetics on plants for this purpose. In both cases, the answer is a resounding no."
Well, once again, this is the opinion of one school of thoughts within plant neurobiology. And once again, many plant neurobiologists would strongly disagree with this opinion. Plant neurobiology is a relatively new field so there is no established consensus.

Now, when it comes to anaesthetics, it's interesting to notice that when plants are given drugs, their metabolism is altered and they start acting weird. As you would expect from a conscious being flying high.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NYC Gardener

Colas D

Forum Novice
Joined
Nov 10, 2020
Reaction score
10
Age
44
Location
Downpatrick
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
  2. Other
If you are interested by ethical fruitarianism, I strongly recommend you watch the Pure Fruit documentary by Emile Bokaer available on YouTube. This is a fantastic film! 😍
 
  • Informative
Reactions: fakei

silva

Forum Legend
Supporter
Joined
Jun 3, 2012
Reaction score
12,316
Location
USA
@Colas D --I would imagine you would refer to yourself as a fruitarian or frugivore, but just please don't every just say vegan!
 

Danielle

forever seeking fire
Supporter
Joined
Jun 4, 2012
Reaction score
5,097
Age
30
Location
Mississippi
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
I do find it hard to believe a plant is sentient, like a human or an animal. Maybe it's because you can't see emotions in their eyes. You don't see them struggle for their lives like an animal would.
 

fakei

Forum Senior
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Reaction score
77
Location
Portugal
Lifestyle
  1. Strict vegetarian
Thanks for your input. I don't eat huge amounts. Chimps may eat the odd root or the odd insect larva but we can do better than them, can't we? Even though they are our closest relative, we are slightly different from them. So let's go fruitarian all the way!
If it works for you great. There are people who report curing serious illnesses on raw vegan diets although not so restrictive ones I believe.

Don't have any doubt that humans can live on veggies alone but the raw and restricted to fruits diet raises doubts and is not backed by any evidence, unless you can produce some, either related to humans or apes.

According to the info available chimps also eat leafs and seeds besides the 4% animal intake and primates have a digestive system that is more able to obtain nutrients from foods difficult or even impossible to break down properly by humans like raw leafs. Like said they also live in tropical climates and there are people who are not even inclined to eat raw fruit during winter in colder climates. Cooking helps nutrients from plant sources to be assimilated and like pointed out fruits can be relatively poor in nutrients.

While there is evidence throughout history of populations living almost exclusively on a plant based diet, with cooked grains and vegetables, in most latitudes, don't know of any evidence of humans or even apes like chimps and orangutans living exclusively on raw fruits.

There is also the question if it would be possible to feed an entire human population with fruits and tropical fruits on top of that since fruitarians seem to favor them.
 
Last edited:

fakei

Forum Senior
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Reaction score
77
Location
Portugal
Lifestyle
  1. Strict vegetarian
The couple on the documentary seems to be doing great though.

Another issue it is that is easy to eat plenty on a plant based diet below 1,5 euros a day, but eating fruits alone, even local grown, would greatly increase the costs. Also many fruits last considerably less stored than veggies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NYC Gardener

NYC Gardener

Forum Legend
Joined
May 3, 2020
Reaction score
2,110
Age
42
Location
New York
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
The couple on the documentary seems to be doing great though.

Another issue it is that is easy to eat plenty on a plant based diet below 1,5 euros a day, but eating fruits alone, even local grown, would greatly increase the costs. Also many fruits last considerably less stored than veggies.

I was thinking about the cost too. Fruit is expensive. I know there are ways to lower the cost such as buying in bulk or growing your own, but it is still costly compared to eating vegetables and legumes.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: fakei

Colas D

Forum Novice
Joined
Nov 10, 2020
Reaction score
10
Age
44
Location
Downpatrick
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
  2. Other
@Colas D --I would imagine you would refer to yourself as a fruitarian or frugivore, but just please don't every just say vegan!
Hi Silva, I consider myself a fruitarian and I consider fruitarianism as a moral extension of veganism. I have great respect for veganism as for me it is a fantastic first step towards fruitarianism. Of course, ultimately, the only way of life that is truly ethical and non violent is fruitarianism as it encompasses all beings. Veganism leaves most of the beings out and therefore falls short of the glory of God.
 

Colas D

Forum Novice
Joined
Nov 10, 2020
Reaction score
10
Age
44
Location
Downpatrick
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
  2. Other
I do find it hard to believe a plant is sentient, like a human or an animal. Maybe it's because you can't see emotions in their eyes. You don't see them struggle for their lives like an animal would.
Thanks Danielle. If you have the opportunity to watch the fast-motion footage of a bean plant trying to reach a pole for support, by all means do. You can really feel emotionally her struggle for life.
Also, it may be hard to have compassion for a spider, a scorpion or a mussel but we must love them nevertheless.
 

Colas D

Forum Novice
Joined
Nov 10, 2020
Reaction score
10
Age
44
Location
Downpatrick
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
  2. Other
If it works for you great. There are people who report curing serious illnesses on raw vegan diets although not so restrictive ones I believe.

Don't have any doubt that humans can live on veggies alone but the raw and restricted to fruits diet raises doubts and is not backed by any evidence, unless you can produce some, either related to humans or apes.

According to the info available chimps also eat leafs and seeds besides the 4% animal intake and primates have a digestive system that is more able to obtain nutrients from foods difficult or even impossible to break down properly by humans like raw leafs. Like said they also live in tropical climates and there are people who are not even inclined to eat raw fruit during winter in colder climates. Cooking helps nutrients from plant sources to be assimilated and like pointed out fruits can be relatively poor in nutrients.

While there is evidence throughout history of populations living almost exclusively on a plant based diet, with cooked grains and vegetables, in most latitudes, don't know of any evidence of humans or even apes like chimps and orangutans living exclusively on raw fruits.

There is also the question if it would be possible to feed an entire human population with fruits and tropical fruits on top of that since fruitarians seem to favor them.
Thanks Fakei, if as you said primates can digest foods that humans cannot digest, like raw leaves, well, it simply means that humans are not meant to eat raw leaves. So let's not eat them!

There are some fruitarians on this planet that are living evidence. Kveta Martinec and Anne Osborne have eaten only fruits for more than 30 years. Anne's son was fed a fruitarian diet until his teenage. Mango Wodzak has eaten a strictly fruitarian diet for 15 years (without supplements of course). And I'm sure there are many more living examples.

It is perfectly possible to be on a fruitarian diet in cold countries. Although I am French, I live in Northern Ireland! It's just a matter of motivation. Of course, it is easier if you live in a tropical paradise.

Environmentally speaking, the Fruitarian diet is the most sustainable and by far. When you pull up a carrot, you kill the plant. But when you pick up an apple, you benefit the plant. Plus, an orchard doesn't required the soil to be disfigured and scarred by the tractor blades.

Of course, we could feed all humanity on a fruitarian diet. The same surface area of land that produces 1 kg of cereals can produce 32 kgs of bananas. That 32 times more efficient!

Cooking enables us to digest nutrients... that we were not meant to eat! That's precisely the problem! Cooking allows us to digest potatoes, cereals, meat and fish, all sorts of foods that are highly poisonous for the human body.

Actually, cooking has 3 effects:
- It destroys vitamins
- it produces carcinogenic toxins
- it enables us to eat noxious foods such as potatoes, cereals, fish and meat. This last effect is probably the worst!
 
Last edited:

Colas D

Forum Novice
Joined
Nov 10, 2020
Reaction score
10
Age
44
Location
Downpatrick
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
  2. Other
I was thinking about the cost too. Fruit is expensive. I know there are ways to lower the cost such as buying in bulk or growing your own, but it is still costly compared to eating vegetables and legumes.
Yes that is correct, it is a more expensive in cold countries, especially when you buy organic, because many fruits are shipped from tropical places. This is why it is worth moving to a tropical area if you get the opportunity to do so. In tropical countries, fruits are very cheap and of better quality. However, it remains affordable in cold countries, especially if you buy in bulk or eat from your own orchard. Fruits that have lots of vitamin C in them can last much longer.
 

Colas D

Forum Novice
Joined
Nov 10, 2020
Reaction score
10
Age
44
Location
Downpatrick
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
  2. Other
The couple on the documentary seems to be doing great though.

Another issue it is that is easy to eat plenty on a plant based diet below 1,5 euros a day, but eating fruits alone, even local grown, would greatly increase the costs. Also many fruits last considerably less stored than veggies.
Thanks Fakei, I have answered this question just above (see reply to NYC gardener).
 

fakei

Forum Senior
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Reaction score
77
Location
Portugal
Lifestyle
  1. Strict vegetarian
Thanks Fakei, if as you said primates can digest foods that humans cannot digest, like raw leaves, well, it simply means that humans are not meant to eat raw leaves. So let's not eat them!

There are some fruitarians on this planet that are living evidence. Kveta Martinec and Anne Osborne have eaten only fruits for more than 30 years. Anne's son was fed a fruitarian diet until his teenage. Mango Wodzak has eaten a strictly fruitarian diet for 15 years (without supplements of course). And I'm sure there are many more living examples.

It is perfectly possible to be on a fruitarian diet in cold countries. Although I am French, I live in Northern Ireland! It's just a matter of motivation. Of course, it is easier if you live in a tropical paradise.

Environmentally speaking, the Fruitarian diet is the most sustainable and by far. When you pull up a carrot, you kill the plant. But when you pick up an apple, you benefit the plant. Plus, an orchard doesn't required the soil to be disfigured and scarred by the tractor blades.

Of course, we could feed all humanity on a fruitarian diet. The same surface area of land that produces 1 kg of cereals can produce 32 kgs of bananas. That 32 times more efficient!

Thanks Fakei, if as you said primates can digest foods that humans cannot digest, like raw leaves, well, it simply means that humans are not meant to eat raw leaves. So let's not eat them!

There are some fruitarians on this planet that are living evidence. Kveta Martinec and Anne Osborne have eaten only fruits for more than 30 years. Anne's son was fed a fruitarian diet until his teenage. Mango Wodzak has eaten a strictly fruitarian diet for 15 years (without supplements of course). And I'm sure there are many more living examples.

It is perfectly possible to be on a fruitarian diet in cold countries. Although I am French, I live in Northern Ireland! It's just a matter of motivation. Of course, it is easier if you live in a tropical paradise.

Environmentally speaking, the Fruitarian diet is the most sustainable and by far. When you pull up a carrot, you kill the plant. But when you pick up an apple, you benefit the plant. Plus, an orchard doesn't required the soil to be disfigured and scarred by the tractor blades.

Of course, we could feed all humanity on a fruitarian diet. The same surface area of land that produces 1 kg of cereals can produce 32 kgs of bananas. That 32 times more efficient!

Cooking enables us to digest nutrients... that we were not meant to eat! That's precisely the problem! Cooking allows us to digest potatoes, cereals, meat and fish, all sorts of foods that are highly poisonous for the human body.

Actually, cooking has 3 effects:
- It destroys vitamins
- it produces carcinogenic toxins
- it enables us to eat noxious foods such as potatoes, cereals, fish and meat. This last effect is probably the worst!
Actually growing grains and veggies is considerably more efficient than bananas or other fruits as you can see below.

1605216426103.png
Also growing fruits requires the use of pesticides and don't know enough about intensive farming of fruit to know if it would meet in practice your ethic criteria.

Since fruit requires considerably more land and many of the fruits sought would be tropical, not to mention waste would be much higher since conservation of fruit is much more difficult, it is not clear if the environmental impact would not be considerably worse if everyone turned to it.

Cooking does not destroy all vitamins at least not completely. Besides there are studies that show that cooking even if reducing the amount on one side increases the availability of the nutrients compensating for that loss. And the concentration of antioxidants increases with the cooking of some foods like tomatoes.

Besides if apes have not been eating only fruits and humans have not been eating only fruit why are we to assume that eating only fruit is enough for humans?

The examples you give are not enough evidence since we are talking of few cases and thus it is not enough to say such diet is adequate to all humans or even the majority. There are people who are able to live without eating at all. Would everyone be able to do the same?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lou

silva

Forum Legend
Supporter
Joined
Jun 3, 2012
Reaction score
12,316
Location
USA
Then of course there's the reality that not all people live in climates where they can be fruitarians. If this "god" you speak of "meant" for people to be fruitarian and all I'd expect it to be more widely available :dismay:
This thread belongs here as much as a breatharian one, cause I'm sure there's something about minerals ....:laughing:
 

David3

Forum Legend
Joined
May 19, 2016
Reaction score
1,849
Age
52
Location
California, USA
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
Genesis 1:29:

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."


It says, "I have given you every herb bearing seed". Doesn't say anything about not eating specific parts of a plant (leaves, roots, nuts etc.)
.
 

Danielle

forever seeking fire
Supporter
Joined
Jun 4, 2012
Reaction score
5,097
Age
30
Location
Mississippi
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
Thanks Danielle. If you have the opportunity to watch the fast-motion footage of a bean plant trying to reach a pole for support, by all means do. You can really feel emotionally her struggle for life.
Also, it may be hard to have compassion for a spider, a scorpion or a mussel but we must love them nevertheless.
I know that plants grow towards the sun, I have seen it in person.
I don’t consider not wanting to harm a sentient being as compassion, only because meat eaters would use that as an excuse. They don’t love animals so they don’t have to be vegan. You don’t need to love animals in order to not eat them. It’s more like animals are sentient beings who want to live too. Knowing that is enough, so I don’t have to feel love for each animal I don’t eat. The motivation I had for quitting animal products did come from an animal that is commonly disliked- pet rats.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: fakei

Removed

Mad Bard
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Reaction score
2,399
Location
.
Lifestyle
  1. Other
Genesis 1:29:

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."


It says, "I have given you every herb bearing seed". Doesn't say anything about not eating specific parts of a plant (leaves, roots, nuts etc.)
.
The thing that comes across strongly in Genesis is that God did not want his world to contain suffering, however creatures needed to eat and so he gave Humans every seed-bearing plant and Animals all other edible vegetation. Clearly, according to Genesis, plants do not suffer.
 

NYC Gardener

Forum Legend
Joined
May 3, 2020
Reaction score
2,110
Age
42
Location
New York
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
The thing that comes across strongly in Genesis is that God did not want his world to contain suffering, however creatures needed to eat and so he gave Humans every seed-bearing plant and Animals all other edible vegetation. Clearly, according to Genesis, plants do not suffer.

Here’s an interesting summary of the instructions to eat or abstain from meat in Genesis:

 
  • Like
Reactions: Removed

Removed

Mad Bard
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Reaction score
2,399
Location
.
Lifestyle
  1. Other
Here’s an interesting summary of the instructions to eat or abstain from meat in Genesis:

Absolutely. Before the fall and even afterwards up until the flood had wiped out all crops, it says very clearly that we were herbivores. I don't believe, from my reading of the Bible, that Christian salvation depends upon being vegan but I do believe very strongly that God would prefer it that way, and in the coming Kingdom, death will be eliminated and even "The lion will eat straw, like the Ox" (From Isaiah)
 
  • Like
Reactions: NYC Gardener
Status
Not open for further replies.