How to appeal to conservative Christians?

[Vegan Dogs]

The sect is "Nazarite" - Samson was one. After Jesus' parents fled to Egypt to keep him safe from Herod, they were going back home after Herod's death but they discovered that his son was ruling so they settled in the town of Nazareth for safety hence fulfilling the scripture that said "He shall be called a Nazarene"

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 2:19-23 - New International Version


Did Nazareth Exist? | The Bart Ehrman Blog

"I should also point out that these kokh tombs from later times were discovered on the hillside of the traditional site of Nazareth. Salm, however, claims that the hillside would have been uninhabitable in Jesus’ day, so that, in his opinion, the village that eventually came into existence (in the years after 70 CE) would have been located on the valley floor, less than a kilometer away. He also points out that archaeologists have never dug at that site.

This view creates insurmountable problems for his thesis. For one thing there is the simple question of logic. If archaeologists have not dug where Salm thinks the village was located, what is his basis for saying that it did not exist in the days of Jesus? This is a major flaw: using forceful rhetoric, almost to the point of indiscretion, Salm insists that anyone who thinks that Nazareth exists has to argue “against the available material evidence.” But what material evidence can there be, if the site where the evidence would exist has never been excavated? And what evidence, exactly, is being argued against, if none has been turned up?

There is an even bigger problem however. There are numerous compelling pieces of archaeological evidence that in fact Nazareth did exist in Jesus’ day, and that like other villages and towns in that part of Galilee, it was built on the hillside, near where the later rock-cut kokh tombs were built. For one thing, archaeologists have excavated a farm connected with the village, and it dates to the time of Jesus."

Thx for that....I read Nazareth didn't exist....probably by an atheist lol

 

[fakei]

Isn't a Nazarite someone who takes the nazarite vow.

 

[Brian W]

Thx for that....I read Nazareth didn't exist....probably by an atheist lol

Yes it's so common for "alternative researchers" to come up with anti-mainstream views because they appeal to so many people. It's how conspiracy theories happen. It's the kind of thing I might have believed myself once upon a time. I have certainly heard it a few times so you are not alone.

Isn't a Nazarite someone who takes the nazarite vow.

Yes. Samson's strength wasn't in his hair it was from God as part of a particular agreement wherein Samson would never let his hair be cut or his beard shaved. Whether this could be considered an organized sect or just a belief that some had I don't know. I ought to do more research on this.

 

[Brian W]

My apologies, I was wrong about something. Nazarene is the sect that existed in the first century but quite a while after Jesus' death. Prior to this, the term had two meanings - 1. Somebody from Nazareth, 2. At the time of Acts Of The Apostles (after Jesus' death) it was commonly used of all Christians. What we think of as the Nazarene sect came about sometime later.

Nazarene (sect) - Wikipedia

 

[Zardyplants]

While this might not work on mainline Christians, you might be able to gain traction within the Jehovah's Witnesses because of their insistence that they keep their souls and bodies "clean". Now this usually entails avoiding blood transfusions and separating themselves from friends and family who would lead them away from "the truth", but I could see this being used to an advantage. A campaign showing the terrible and unclean conditions of slaughter houses might work.

Admittedly, I am bias against them, due to a family member converting to them and then cutting themselves off. But it also means I've heard their rhetoric and veganism could craft an argument from it.

 

[Brian W]

While this might not work on mainline Christians, you might be able to gain traction within the Jehovah's Witnesses because of their insistence that they keep their souls and bodies "clean". Now this usually entails avoiding blood transfusions and separating themselves from friends and family who would lead them away from "the truth", but I could see this being used to an advantage. A campaign showing the terrible and unclean conditions of slaughter houses might work.

Admittedly, I am bias against them, due to a family member converting to them and then cutting themselves off. But it also means I've heard their rhetoric and veganism could craft an argument from it.

Maybe, but I wouldn't mind betting they immediately start searching "Reasoning from the scriptures" and then being doubtful when they can't find an answer ready made for them by Watchtower authorities.

 

[JacobEdward]

I know conservative Christians who have been going to the same nondenominational church since the 1970s, who believe that if they get led astray by a false doctrine they will wind up in hell, so they are apprehensive about believing anything that is different from what they are taught in church. And one thing they are taught is that Jesus ate fish and passover lambs and that he never did anything wrong his whole life, so it is difficult to convince them there is any moral problem with animal exploitation. There may be passages in the Bible that support veganism, say in Genesis, Daniel or Revelation, but what ultimately matters to them is the diet and actions of Jesus.

Given that with someone like this you cannot try to argue Jesus was a vegan or vegetarian or that their pastor is incorrect about anything in his interpretation of the Bible, or that the King James Bible is errant in any way, how can you veganize them?

I am not a christian, I am not deliberately trying to destroy that religion, I am trying to turn the world vegan but I do acknowledge that it might genuinely be the only way... how can you believe jesus was GOD but also cared for animals but then fucked up so royally that for thousands of years that everybody didn't realize it was immoral (or that their faith told them that it was moral) to eat chopped up body parts of precious baby animals? That said, if this woman can get christians to go vegan then all the powers to her ----
our hen house podcast

btw, my post got censored so you should feel lucky... still reading your response but I wanted to copy/paste what I wrote in the other thing
"most people will hear a vegans arguments, give some neutral agreement thing in the moment and then later that night think what does it matter, jesus isn't vegan... That's a real problem that needs to be solved if we're going to overthrow the paradigm... "

it seems like a lot of vegans aren't willing to be honest about that ^^

 

[JacobEdward]

It's the same in Catholicism. They see the strict vegetarian diet in monasteries as a form of renunciation but can react badly to it if they see it in a different context. It's their problem anyway.

that is truly horrifying ...

 

[nobody]

I am not a christian, I am not deliberately trying to destroy that religion, I am trying to turn the world vegan but I do acknowledge that it might genuinely be the only way...

Okay, going with that premise, let's say that Christianity is destroyed and then all the Christians don't have anything to do so they become Satanists and not only continue to eat animals but also start sacrificing them to the devil in black masses? Or, they become Buddhists. The current Dalai Lama eats meat so why shouldn't they? Or they become aetheist, skeptic naturalist types, where they will get a little bit of pressure from people in the community, such as Peter Singer, but not much. Most of those kinds of people eat meat. I am personally a new ager and see very little veganism in this community - maybe only slightly more than is found in the Christian community, which is not enough to matter. So this "Jesus was morally perfect and he ate lamb and fish" belief is one hard nut to crack but we certainly wouldn't be out of the woods if it were, because there are many more justifications in use out there.

 

[MorellaRat]

For encouraging Christians towards veganism, how about this quote from Matthew 25:40: 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

[Brian W]

For encouraging Christians towards veganism, how about this quote from Matthew 25:40: 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Unfortunately, that verse refers to Christians, not to animals. The church is much the same as everybody else and will make the same excuses as everybody else. If they try to say that God made animals to be eaten though, there is a good defence in Genesis 1 and 2. God gave us "every herb that bears seed" for food and he made animals to be our companions. "It is not good that man should be alone. I will make him a helpmeet"

 

[JacobEdward]

Okay, going with that premise, let's say that Christianity is destroyed and then all the Christians don't have anything to do so they become Satanists

why do they always turn into nihilists? why?

and not only continue to eat animals but also start sacrificing them to the devil in black masses?

I thought the devil wanted you to be vegan?

Or, they become Buddhists. The current Dalai Lama eats meat so why shouldn't they?

Those people are indeed crazy too if they believe they dont have to be Vegan to be in alignment

Or they become aetheist, skeptic naturalist types, where they will get a little bit of pressure from people in the community, such as Peter Singer, but not much. Most of those kinds of people eat meat.

There are 2 billion christians in the world, half of them are still catholic

I am personally a new ager and see very little veganism in this community - maybe only slightly more than is found in the Christian community

you have got to be joking... the % of the 2 billion who are vegan? you dont think this through before you type do you

, which is not enough to matter. So this "Jesus was morally perfect and he ate lamb and fish" belief is one hard nut to crack

really? a peasant carpenter from bronze age palestine who did nothing with his life other than get himself killed was GOD of existence... he could have built a floatwheel, that would have made a HUGE dent in the poverty of the world and all the other things he says he's about... your god didn't know... it is undeniable, if he knew he would have... imagine with that concentrated amount of power jesus started the industrial revolution with assembly line mechanizations built with carpentry tools thousands of years before henry ford...

but we certainly wouldn't be out of the woods if it were, because there are many more justifications in use out there.

no I believe there would be a large enough swell to start pushing political institutions to make larger changes, like every school meal is vegan, every prison meal is vegan, every administrative cafeteria is vegan... etc.

 

[nobody]

no I believe there would be a large enough swell to start pushing political institutions to make larger changes, like every school meal is vegan, every prison meal is vegan, every administrative cafeteria is vegan... etc.

If non-Christian nations such as China were institutionally vegan, I would be able to see how what you are saying could be true.

Edit: In all of your other comments in your post, you seem to be attributing Christian beliefs to myself and then giving your counter arguments. And I say "seem" because I flat out don't understand what you are saying in several comments, but that is my best interpretation. I'm a "new ager". That does not mean Christian. You seem to think it does. I'm into non-duality and stuff like that.

 

[nobody]

There are 2 billion christians in the world, half of them are still catholic

I don't understand this as a reply to me saying most materialist aetheists are not vegan.

you have got to be joking... the % of the 2 billion who are vegan? you dont think this through before you type do you

My impression is the new age community has slightly more veganism than the Christian community, but not much. That's my impression.

really? a peasant carpenter from bronze age palestine who did nothing with his life other than get himself killed was GOD of existence... he could have built a floatwheel, that would have made a HUGE dent in the poverty of the world and all the other things he says he's about... your god didn't know... it is undeniable, if he knew he would have... imagine with that concentrated amount of power jesus started the industrial revolution with assembly line mechanizations built with carpentry tools thousands of years before henry ford..

Yes really. All that you say, no matter how logical, will fall on deaf ears, which makes the belief in morally perfect, fish/lamb eating Jesus a hard nut to crack.

 

[nobody]

Actually JacobEdward, you (or it) may be correct that the belief in a morally perfect, meat eating Jesus must end before there is worldwide veganism. So in that sense mainstream Christianity as we know it would need to be destroyed as you put before there was worldwide veganism. But if that is so then morally perfect meat/fish eating Jesus is only one of hundreds of individual beliefs that would need to end. The majority of the world's population is not Christian and not vegan. Some believe that courage/longevity/beauty or various other traits are gained by eating certain animals, due to various folk religion beliefs, for example. Animals are in fact still sacrificed to various deities around the world today, due to various beliefs, etc.

 

[JacobEdward]

Actually JacobEdward, you (or it) may be correct that the belief in a morally perfect, meat eating Jesus must end before there is worldwide veganism. So in that sense mainstream Christianity as we know it would need to be destroyed as you put before there was worldwide veganism. But if that is so then morally perfect meat/fish eating Jesus is only one of hundreds of individual beliefs that would need to end.

Its not that it needs to be destroyed or ended, it would just turn into something like harry potter, jesus was this very powerful wizard that stained all of reality with his death, not god

The majority of the world's population is not Christian and not vegan.

Do you understand how its difficult to talk to someone like you when you make those sorts of asymmetrical statements... 2/7 people are christian... vegetarianism is somewhere around 1/1000 ... whatever that would mean for 100% vegan is obviously too depressing to contemplate

Some believe that courage/longevity/beauty or various other traits are gained by eating certain animals, due to various folk religion beliefs, for example. Animals are in fact still sacrificed to various deities around the world today, due to various beliefs, etc.

It is genuinely possible to get those things wrong, dont let the sophists redefine truth

 

[JacobEdward]

If non-Christian nations such as China were institutionally vegan, I would be able to see how what you are saying could be true.

Edit: In all of your other comments in your post, you seem to be attributing Christian beliefs to myself and then giving your counter arguments. And I say "seem" because I flat out don't understand what you are saying in several comments, but that is my best interpretation. I'm a "new ager". That does not mean Christian. You seem to think it does. I'm into non-duality and stuff like that.

You suggested we wouldn't be out of the woods if Jesus had been a vegan... I very much disagree, maybe you were saying something else

 

[JacobEdward]

I don't understand this as a reply to me saying most materialist aetheists are not vegan.

Yes I was hurried in the moment, sorry... I do have this sense that I was trying to shoot for something but then moved to the next line before I completed it and now I cant remember what it was lol... In terms of numbers there being more christians than athiests would imply the problem we should try to focus on would be the christians first then the athiests...

My impression is the new age community has slightly more veganism than the Christian community, but not much. That's my impression.

My impression is the Christian community has isolated vegans that almost always never say anything about it and are often cheating or primed for going back to not being vegan... There is no vegan community, only a vegan population... If we wanted to change the world we should emulate the catholic church, they do have this outreach program but they spend a lot on their internal community whereas the vegan world is almost entirely outreach...

Yes really. All that you say, no matter how logical, will fall on deaf ears, which makes the belief in morally perfect, fish/lamb eating Jesus a hard nut to crack.

Then its deaf ears that is the problem, but that's not it... there is something that is holding them, black magic or people in their environment etc. Having an actual competing community people could switch to would be way better but everybody still has this confusion about christianity being compatible with veganism and so do this forever walking on egg shells thing instead of being honest about the situation

 

[nobody]

It is genuinely possible to get those things wrong, dont let the sophists redefine truth

If you don't believe it here is some documentation for it..

Certain animals eaten for believed benefits:

List of traditional Chinese medicines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Google image search: Animal sacrifice

 

[nobody]

My impression is the Christian community has isolated vegans that almost always never say anything about it and are often cheating or primed for going back to not being vegan... There is no vegan community, only a vegan population... If we wanted to change the world we should emulate the catholic church, they do have this outreach program but they spend a lot on their internal community whereas the vegan world is almost entirely outreach...

This may not be a community, or it may be one, I'm not sure. But I know it's a website with tons of Christian vegan content that has been around forever...

Welcome to All-Creatures.org

All-Creatures.org - Working for a peaceful world for humans, animals, and the environment

www.all-creatures.org

Here is my current strategy for dealing with conservative Christians. When I say that I mean ones who will not hear of a vegan Jesus. I am simply going to rejoice in their presence that I am lucky enough to follow a vegan diet due to me living in a society where it is possible, rather than in say some subarctic society, or similar, where it is not possible to survive on a vegan diet due to the unavailability of plant foods. Then they will say "Well, I'm not going to take advantage of my opportunity to live a more compassionate life, because Jesus didn't." And then I'll say "Okay, to each their own." And then after I leave they'll be thinking about it, and it will gnaw at them.