How can we struggle?

Alexnt

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In the cold countries of E Europe animal farming is everywhere; a lot of unemployed look at it as a way of escaping from poverty and hunger traps. This is how it works (i will simplify the model for clarity). There's one capitalist who produces grain using a machine with no labor input. A farmer with x $ of money buys y kg of grain; in 2 years he gets y/10 kg of meat which he sells for x $ again, where 0.5 x $ is labor contribution, so his profit is negative - 0.5 x $; in the best case he could sell it for 2 x $ so now he earned 0.5 x $. You can look at it as a process of conversion of grain into meat with very little or no profit. At the beginning a farmer needs money for animal food and here comes a capitalist offering him poor quality grain (unsuitable for human consumption) at a much lower price. One capitalist produces grain and he also produces meat on a large scale and feeds it to the populations of mega cities; the poor who cannot find jobs, housing in the mega cities go to the countryside and start animal farming on a small scale trying to compete with the giants and to make money; but in most cases they are able to earn very little to nothing in terms of money. These small scale farmers cannot grow grain on their small plots, they dont know how to grow vegetables and nuts either; but they use the fantastic survival abilities of animals in the harsh and poor conditions; if it hadnt been for them these people would have to eat grain and grass themselves. So in the struggle for veganism several things should be understood: first that the opponents are huge corporations; second is that a healthy, available product should be created as an alternative to their product and it should be producible in cold countries. How would it look like practically, small vegetable growing communities? Unfortunately today even asian countries where plant based diet had been prevalent for centuries are turning in the western direction under the pressure of the big money.
 

Mark Mywordz

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I find your analysis is very interesting and I can't fault it. But many east Europeans get on their (figurative) bikes and go where there is better paid work. England, Germany, Sweden etc. still have jobs that need workers. These countries also have shops where basic foods are affordable and a vegan diet can be cheap. There is an escape route for Europeans. I admit that Africans and Asians have a much greater problem and the West needs to act in a more responsible and helpful way. You are lucky to be living in Europe. You can get on a cheap flight west and be where the work is in a couple of hours. Lots of your countrymen have done that. If you try it and don't like it, get back on a plane to Poland. Good luck.
 
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Alexnt

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But many east Europeans get on their (figurative) bikes and go where there is better paid work.
First of all we need to separate food from all capitalist non food products and money. As I have shown in the example food (both plant and animal) is hardly convertible into money. People go to the old rich industrial capitalist countries because there are many commodities. There are lots of factory farms in W European countries and they are the biggest meat consumers in the world alongside with the US.
 

Mark Mywordz

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You are right, Alexn't, but I am sure that you realise that when you say "First of all we need to separate food from all capitalist non food products and money" that does not get us any closer to finding the "we" who want and are able to do that. I like a Marxist analysis and find it very useful in pinpointing the weaknesses in a Capitalist society. But I like democratic societies. Even Donald Trump knows that despite all his wealth, he can be voted out of office at any moment and that he is really subject to the rule of law like any other member of American society. President Nixon found that to his cost.
I have been in Spain for the last 6 months and will be returning to the UK for 6 months in 2 days. I will be living on a canal boat (a narrow boat) and will not have internet access half the time. You live in a beautiful country. Enjoy the summer wherever you are.
Mark
 
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Alexnt

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Marxist analysis is only concerned with how to stop people eating other people.
But I like democratic societies
Its a delusion, there is no such thing. (Ive shown how "democracy" comes at the cost of millions of factory farms). Meat industry is driven by the profit motive only; destroy this mechanism - there will be no meat industry.

I have a neighbor nearby who is going to grow sheep on a 10 hec land. He will feed them for 1-2 years on grass and then kill them. What should i say to him to stop doing this and grow oats? But oats is grown nearby on a piece of land 100 times bigger. The owner does it with expensive machinery.
 
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Jamie in Chile

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It's an interesting debate. These market forces, consumer desires and even government regulation/subsidies all have a part to play over the coming decades in working towards a more plant-based diet.
 

Mark Mywordz

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Marxist analysis is only concerned with how to stop people eating other people.
Its a delusion, there is no such thing. (Ive shown how "democracy" comes at the cost of millions of factory farms). Meat industry is driven by the profit motive only; destroy this mechanism - there will be no meat industry.

I have a neighbor nearby who is going to grow sheep on a 10 hec land. He will feed them for 1-2 years on grass and then kill them. What should i say to him to stop doing this and grow oats? But oats is grown nearby on a piece of land 100 times bigger. The owner does it with expensive machinery.
I understand your thinking but it's my delusion. It's good to keep arguing and certainly better than killing. I have 3 days driving and 24 hours in a boat (and crossing the Bay of Biscay!). I must read Voltaire again, to mention but one. I shall have time on the boat. Have a good summer. I'll be back in the early autumn (which is still very hot down here).
 

Sally

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If we want to change the world then it is up to each individual to play their part. It's no good saying this or that can't be done because of the structure of society. There will be people who will eat meat because it is what they know and they are okay with it. The people we need to reach are those who are unhappy about eating meat but don't know how to stop. When the majority of these people have learned how to live morally, then society will feel the shift and it will gain momentum. It is already happening in the Western world. Companies are realising there is money to be made in producing vegan foodstuffs. It will not change overnight, but it will change more quickly if we each do our part and spread the word until eating meat is the odd thing to do.