Feeding animal products to dogs

[Graeme M]

Yesterday I saw a doco about a business here in Australia which makes dog food out of the waste from commercial fishing. That is, fish caught by commercial fishermen are sent for processing and only the choicest parts are then sold on to consumers. The rest is waste which may be used in a variety of lower value product (such as fertiliser or animal feed) or perhaps discarded.

This business buys some of that waste and converts it into a range of bespoke pet foods and treats. The question is, would it be seen as acceptable for vegans to buy this food for their pet cat or dog? As I see it, the primary cause of the fishing is human consumption. If it IS the case that waste accruing from this is used to make food for pets (who do not need to be vegan), it doesn't seem objectionable to buy these products for one's pet. It is possible the business owner is lying and that some proportion of catch is attributable to the business demand for this product, but let's assume this isn't so and the owner is genuine.

 

[vegan89]

If it is animal by-products from fish consumption, then it is probably like buying a car made with animal-derived steel or rubber. It's a bad thing and it contributes to the financial profitability of industries that exploit animals and cause animal suffering, which creates the incentive for more fishing and animal abuse. Unlike animal-derived steel in cars, this is a problem that is easily solved because vegan dog food options exist:

https://www.amazon.com/V-Dog-Vegan-Kibble-Dry-Food/dp/B0083AE08W/ref=sxts_rp_s_1_0?content-id=amzn1.sym.bf03c8c5-442d-4e66-a4e5-38dc35df3a45%3Aamzn1.sym.bf03c8c5-442d-4e66-a4e5-38dc35df3a45&crid=1EBLFSST0S8YL&cv_ct_cx=v-dog+dog+food&keywords=v-dog+dog+food&pd_rd_i=B0083AE08W&pd_rd_r=b4a14da6-235a-4eba-95c1-b2c2242de218&pd_rd_w=q2GtQ&pd_rd_wg=gAy70&pf_rd_p=bf03c8c5-442d-4e66-a4e5-38dc35df3a45&pf_rd_r=WZEXXTBYQ8DZ3W5ZRYPV&psc=1&qid=1658755176&rdc=1&sprefix=v-dog+dog+food%2Caps%2C70&sr=1-1-5e1b2986-06e6-4004-a85e-73bfa3ee44fe

Benevo Puppy Vegan Vegetarian Original Kibble

Benevo Vegan Puppy Kibble – Vegan Essentials Online Store

store.veganessentials.com

There is also some research indicating vegan diets can be beneficial for dogs:

Vegan dog diet could save you massive vet bills: study

 

[David3]

If it is animal by-products from fish consumption, then it is probably like buying a car made with animal-derived glue. It's a bad thing and it contributes to the financial profitability of industries that exploit animals and cause animal suffering, which creates the incentive for more fishing and animal abuse. Unlike animal-derived glue in cars, this is a problem that is easily solved because vegan dog food options exist:

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I've been a mechanical engineer for 25+ years, and I can tell you that no animal-derived glues are used in cars. Animal-derived glues have grossly inferior strength, durability, moisture-resistance, heat- and cold-resistance, and cure time, compared to the affordable, modern, synthetic adhesives: epoxy, polyurethane, acrylic, polyvinyl acetate, cyanoacrylate, silicone, etc etc etc (!)

 

[vegan89]

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I've been a mechanical engineer for 25+ years, and I can tell you that no animal-derived glues are used in cars. Animal-derived glues have grossly inferior strength, durability, moisture-resistance, and cure time, compared to the affordable modern adhesives: epoxy, polyurethane, cyanoacrylate, silicone, etc etc etc

Okay. I mentioned it because in some other thread on these forums someone claimed there was animal-derived glues used in common consumer products (I think including stuff like cars and smartphones). I don't really think it matters for purposes of this discussion though, because there are other non-vegan components in automobiles that could be used for purposes of my argument:

Can Vegans Drive Cars? - Choose Veganism

www.chooseveganism.org

I will edit the original comment to put in animal-derived steel/rubber instead of glue.

 

[David3]

Okay. I mentioned it because in some other thread on these forums someone claimed there was animal-derived glues used in common consumer products (I think including stuff like cars and smartphones). I don't really think it matters for purposes of this discussion though, because there are other non-vegan components in automobiles that could be used for purposes of my argument:

Can Vegans Drive Cars? - Choose Veganism

www.chooseveganism.org

I will edit the original comment to put in animal-derived steel/rubber instead of glue.

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Please understand that online blogs, such as chooseveganism.org, are not reliable sources of information.

Neither steel nor rubber is animal-derived. Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon, with the addition of other mined elements (such as vanadium and others). Modern rubber is made from polymers derived from petroleum.

It is true that tiny amounts of animal material (such as lubricants) may be used in the equipment that is used to make steel and rubber.
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[David3]

Per the University of Florida Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, here are the end-uses of fish meal ("waste" fish material) in the United States, year 2010:

Aquaculture (feeding farmed fish): 56%
Pigs: 20%
Poultry: 12%
Ruminants (feeding cows): <1%
Other: 12%

Link: FA122/FA122: The Benefits of Fish Meal in Aquaculture Diets

 

[Lou]

@David,
I think you are missing the point of the question and answer. Getting too caught up in the example instead of the issue. or worrying about the details and not the sentiment. The letters instead of the spirit.

We all know about how hard it is to be 100% vegan.

The question was it it ethical to give dogs foods derived from fish waste.

@vegan89 gave a good answer except for the example.

I'm happy to see you correct misinformation whenever you see it but don't let that get in the way of everything else. Sure if the conclusion was based on an incoorect premise - that DOES need correction. I don't think this wa the case tho. Vegan89 could have chosen a different example to illustrate the point.

 

[vegan89]

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Please understand that online blogs, such as chooseveganism.org, are not reliable sources of information.

Neither steel nor rubber is animal-derived. Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon, with the addition of other mined elements (such as vanadium and others). Modern rubber is made from polymers derived from petroleum.

It is true that tiny amounts of animal material (such as lubricants) may be used in the equipment that is used to make steel and rubber.
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Even if the amount is small, it's still not vegan. I was aware metals themselves are not animal-derived (I took a few chemistry courses in college), but that doesn't mean they are vegan if animal products are used to manufacture the metal product produced from the metals. Not having worked in the steel industry myself, if there are a number of sources that are claiming animal products are used to produce steel products, I'm inclined to believe it. Similar claims are made from several other websites:

The Complete Vegan Guide to Buying a Car

www.livekindly.com

Can you own a car and be a vegan?

www.arnoldclark.com

Here's a USA Today article on MSN News that also says animal products are used to produce the steel & rubber products in cars:

"Indeed, you can buy vehicles without leather, but animal products are likely being used to manufacture certain components on your vehicle, such as rubber tires and steel that use animal fats in production."

Electric vehicles go vegan? Volvo is ditching leather, but vegan cars aren't here yet

 

[Graeme M]

I am aware of the problem of economic signals. I am not sure this applies as strongly in this case. For example, buying a steak directly signals a consumption demand and hence a supply demand. Buying pet food can often do the same as some, perhaps many, petfoods are made from animals such as bobby calves. Probably, at the scale of pet foods globally, the price of pet foods is a part of the economic viability of animal farming.

But in this case, I am led to believe that there is waste which is not commercially viable. This company buys this waste and converts it to pet food at a local scale. The commercial fishing industry is not relying on this business to be viable. Hence it seems unlikely that me buying one of these items is signalling a demand to the commercial fishing industry. If it really is the case that the waste is simply dumped or converted into this niche market item, it seems more ethical to use it. To not do so means that not only is some portion of a catch wasted, but some other food must be produced to be used instead.

Is there a parallel to soy? When we buy vegetable oils or baked goods, we are often buying a product from the soy industry. This price signal is a critical part of the economic case for growing soy, the vast majority of which is also used to produce animal feed. Vegans buying any product containing soy oil are effectively underwriting the profitability of the animal feed industry.

 

[permabulk]

The question is, would it be seen as acceptable for vegans to buy this food for their pet cat or dog?

It's not acceptable for (ethical) vegans to have pets at all, if by "pet" you mean an animal that is kept primarily for the owner's enjoyment, in other words, an animal kept as property.

Totally fine for vegans to keep rescue animals, however, but I can't make a case one way or the other: the animals in one's care have to eat something, but one doesn't want to support the fishing industry. I guess the best answer depends on alternative options for pet food, which I don't know much about. The decision would probably come down to personal preference beyond that.

 

[vegan89]

But in this case, I am led to believe that there is waste which is not commercially viable. This company buys this waste and converts it to pet food at a local scale. The commercial fishing industry is not relying on this business to be viable. Hence it seems unlikely that me buying one of these items is signalling a demand to the commercial fishing industry. If it really is the case that the waste is simply dumped or converted into this niche market item, it seems more ethical to use it.

If the company buys animal products of any type and converts it into pet food, then you are financially supporting businesses that produce animal products. There is no question this is unethical from a vegan standpoint.

Is there a parallel to soy? When we buy vegetable oils or baked goods, we are often buying a product from the soy industry. This price signal is a critical part of the economic case for growing soy, the vast majority of which is also used to produce animal feed. Vegans buying any product containing soy oil are effectively underwriting the profitability of the animal feed industry.

That seems like it might be a compelling argument. So soy oils only are the problem (and not tofu, soymilk, etc)? For a major claim like that though, you need a good quality citation to convince me.

 

[Graeme M]

If the company buys animal products of any type and converts it into pet food, then you are financially supporting businesses that produce animal products. There is no question this is unethical from a vegan standpoint.

OK. I disagree with you on this but I understand your point of view. I think our ethical decisions need to be a bit more multi-dimensional.

So soy oils only are the problem (and not tofu, soymilk, etc)? For a major claim like that though, you need a good quality citation to convince me.

Yes. Food grade soy is different from oil grade soy and is grown specifically to produce the various foods. Typically as far as I know the whole seed is used. Oil grade seed though is crushed to extract the oil. The crush residue is what is used to feed animals and is known as soy meal or meal cake. The oil is used in a range of human applications, typically from vegetable oil to baked goods to industrial uses including biofuels. However, I don't think soy oil has any particular advantage over other oil crops. For example, palm is higher yield per hectare and is a perennial while soy is an annual so it's probably more profitable. Where soy wins out as a crop is that the grower can maximise profitability given the price reflects two viable usage streams. Because of this, soy has become greatly favoured as an oil crop with strong growth in the past three decades in particular, coincidentally the same period over which intensive indoor systems for animal production has become more popular.

Now, does that mean vegans should avoid any products with soy oil in them? I don't know, I was just suggesting a possible parallel. The purchasing signal contributes to profitability for the soy meal sector which contributes to profitability in the intensive animal production sector. I'm not sure how we should look at that. As I see it, I'm not sure there is a big difference between the fish pet food case and the soy oil case, in fact I kind of think the fish pet food case is more ethical because not only is it not causing growth in the fishing industry but it is also maximising use of a resource whereas soy oil both contributes to animal farming and land clearing etc. Interestingly, about 93% of all soy grown is used for human applications, so it's a bit hard to claim vegans don't contribute to the problems of soy cropping.

Here is a reference:

Is our appetite for soy driving deforestation in the Amazon? - Our World in Data

ourworldindata.org

 

[vegan89]

Now, does that mean vegans should avoid any products with soy oil in them? [...] The purchasing signal contributes to profitability for the soy meal sector which contributes to profitability in the intensive animal production sector. I'm not sure how we should look at that.

Assuming it's true that buying soybean oil produces cheap animal livestock feed for factory farms, then I think vegans absolutely should try to avoid buying soy oil.

But to be clear, a person who is buying soy oil and doesn't consume animal products themselves is still "vegan." It's just that they are doing something contrary to the spirit of veganism and maybe aren't aware of it.

On a related note: what about other oil types? Olive oil? Corn oil? Vegetable oil? Peanut oil? Coconut oil? Palm oil? Canola oil?

Also, you mentioned baked goods earlier. Assuming there is no soy oil in them, how is that relevant to this discussion at all assuming the baked goods are vegan?

 

[Graeme M]

Assuming it's true that buying soybean oil produces cheap animal livestock feed for factory farms, then I think vegans absolutely should try to avoid buying soy oil.

But to be clear, a person who is buying soy oil and doesn't consume animal products themselves is still "vegan." It's just that they are doing something contrary to the spirit of veganism and maybe aren't aware of it.

On a related note: what about other oil types? Olive oil? Corn oil? Vegetable oil? Peanut oil? Coconut oil? Palm oil? Canola oil?

Also, you mentioned baked goods earlier. Assuming there is no soy oil in them, how is that relevant to this discussion at all assuming the baked goods are vegan?

Again, I am not saying any particular thing IS the case, I don't really know how to unpack this situation. But given that soy oil prices help reduce soy meal prices and thereby enhances the profitability of intensive animal industries, it does look like there is a case to make.

I do kind of disagree with your suggestion that someone is still vegan who does things contrary to the spirit of veganism for reasons I have explored here before. Veganism is an idea about how to make ethical choices. So whether or not one consumes things with soy oil in them has no bearing on whether one is a "vegan", as I look at it. Rather, like with everything else, all you can do is weigh up what you do know in the context of your desire to behave ethically and decide from there. Wearing a vegan armband means zilch as far as I am concerned. But that's just me.

I'm not sure what you mean about other oils. The vegetable oil industry is enjoying significant growth just now - I read an article the other day that year on year growth is very strong. So demand is high. Now, what the various oils get used for I don't know. Some for cooking (I think soy is more and more prevalent in the restaurant industry), some for dressings, some for foods not requiring heating, industrial uses etc including cosmetics, soaps, candles and so on. Soy oil has some advantages as the link I shared explain but I think without animal feed as a market, we'd see less soy grown in favour of crops like palm and canola.

The baked goods thing is because vegetable oils, particularly soy, are used in the baking process to act as a shortening. I believe it is one of the most commonly used oils in commercial baking. So, baked goods are neither vegan nor non-vegan because objects cannot be vegan; as I look at it, this is an irrelevant distinction. However, your choice to buy them may or may not be consistent with the underlying philosophy of veganism. If on balance you think vegetable oil contributes to animal harms and other environmental harms, you might think it best to avoid products containing that substance as much as you can. It's up to you (as in, it's up to any one of us to make our own choices).

Bakingbusiness.com Article: Soybean Oil - Dough Ingredients - Pizza Making Forum

Bakingbusiness.com Article: Soybean Oil - Dough Ingredients - Pizza Making Forum

www.pizzamaking.com

 

[vegan89]

When I was asking you about the other oil types (olive oil, corn oil, vegetable oil, peanut oil, coconut oil, palm oil, canola oil, sunflower oil, etc) I was wondering if they also produce cheap animal feed for factory farms as a by-product of their production, or if it was only soy oil alone that is the problem for vegans.

On the topic of soy though, I notice soybean meal can also be purchased for use as a nitrogen-rich fertilizer for your garden. So if buys soy oil, maybe they could offset the purchase by also buying some soybean meal for garden veggies.

 

[Graeme M]

When I was asking you about the other oil types (olive oil, corn oil, vegetable oil, peanut oil, coconut oil, palm oil, canola oil, sunflower oil, etc) I was wondering if they also produce cheap animal feed for factory farms as a by-product of their production, or if it was only soy oil alone that is the problem for vegans.

I'm not sure about that. A lot of animal feed does come from crop residue and other by-product, for example Brewers Spent Grain (BSG) which is a waste residue from brewing processes. It's a difficult call to decide on whether contributing to the primary product consumption leads to indirect support for animal farming. In the case of BSG, for example, the waste grains from brewing processes costs the brewer money because it has to be disposed of. Brewers can sell the waste to farmers, saving both money in the process and improving profitability for each:

"Spent grains are a major source of brewing waste. About 85% of the solid waste a brewery produces is spent grains. At the same time, animal feed is a major cost for farmers who raise cattle or other livestock. And brewery spent grain (BSG) can be used to supplement animal feed, especially for cattle. Across North America, breweries are pairing with farmers to help each other out. In a typical craft brewery arrangement, the brewery gives the BSG to the farmer as long as he or she is willing to pick it up and cart it away promptly. In some agricultural areas, the brewery may charge a small fee. This saves the brewery money it would have had to spend on grain disposal. The farmer uses the BSG to supplement his or her feed and this saves money. And for brewpubs that buy or barter some beef from the farmer it supplies, it allows them to tell their customers a Brewery-to-Farm-to-Brewpub-Table story that may resonate with those who enjoy local goods or support better ecological practices."

All of that said, as far as oil crops go, I think soy is the main offender given its maximal protein profile. But I have definitely heard of palm cake being used too.

Utilization of Palm Kernel Cake as a Ruminant Feed for Animal: A Review

Utilization of Palm Kernel Cake as a Ruminant Feed for Animal: A Review

scialert.net

A quick Google suggests a lot of oil crop residue is used for animal feed:

Rapeseed meal | Feedipedia

www.feedipedia.org

 

[vegan89]

I did some searching just typing stuff like peanut/corn/coconut/canola/etc in there and animal feed, and the word oil.. and yeah it looks like ALL of those oil types may be problematic for vegans due to their production of plant by-products to feed farm animals in the process of extracting the plant oils for human use.

There is one way a vegan could perhaps use them ethically though I think: if the vegan ALSO buys the plant meal when they buy the plant oil. As I'm reading about it, I'm finding many of these plant meals that are sometimes used in animal feeds are also sold to gardeners or to the public for lawn care because of their agricultural utility in growing new plants. Corn meal byproduct from oil production for example is apparently a natural weed control option for lawn & garden use, and soybean meal is apparently also sold as a nitrogen rich fertilizer for garden use.

So if you buy one of those plant oils for cooking and then also buy some of the associated plant cake/meal byproduct from oil production to use in your garden, perhaps you could arguably say you haven't supplied livestock operations with cheap animal feed because you also purchased some of that animal feed to use in your garden?

 

[David3]

I did some searching just typing stuff like peanut/corn/coconut/canola/etc in there and animal feed, and the word oil.. and yeah it looks like ALL of those oil types may be problematic for vegans due to their production of plant by-products to feed farm animals in the process of extracting the plant oils for human use.

There is one way a vegan could perhaps use them ethically though I think: if the vegan ALSO buys the plant meal when they buy the plant oil. As I'm reading about it, I'm finding many of these plant meals that are sometimes used in animal feeds are also sold to gardeners or to the public for lawn care because of their agricultural utility in growing new plants. Corn meal byproduct from oil production for example is apparently a natural weed control option for lawn & garden use, and soybean meal is apparently also sold as a nitrogen rich fertilizer for garden use.

So if you buy one of those plant oils for cooking and then also buy some of the associated plant cake/meal byproduct from oil production to use in your garden, perhaps you could arguably say you haven't supplied livestock operations with cheap animal feed because you also purchased some of that animal feed to use in your garden?

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These types of actions require great effort, but produce little benefit. And, unfortunately, this topic serves to spread the myth that veganism is difficult and impractical. You're not helping the cause.
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