Do you find it hard to get on with family who refuse to listen?

mlod54

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I am 26 and tried to go vegetarian when I was 12 and when I was 15. The first time, being only 12 I didn't know anything about the meat industry and my parents made it clear that it wasn't an option so I basically just accepted it. When I was 15, I did some research and became very upset and tried to go vegetarian, however my parents got very angry, said lots of horrible things and punished me. The main reason that they were desperate for me to eat meat is that they thought that it is essential for our health so I did some research and presented them sources from websites such as the NHS showing that we can live on a vegetarian diet but they refused to look at it and I felt forced to just bury my feelings and continue eating meat. I am really angry with myself and feel that this was very weak of me but I went on eating meat for over 10 years, subconciously knowing that it was wrong but unable to face another fight with my family.

Earlier this year I did lots of research and went vegan. The more research I do, the more terrible eating animal products seems and it is clear to me that immense suffering and environmental damage is being caused in order to produce products which are actually bad for our health compared to a good vegan diet. I can't stop thinking about the suffering so when I see my family (who I don't live with) all I can talk about is how awful the production of animal products is. But they think that I am intolerant and rude and shouldn't push my views on them, they refuse to watch any of the videos that I have sent them and my mum says that (non-human) animal suffering doesn't matter because they are stupid. I don't feel that I can enjoy spending time with them now and I feel morally obliged to do whatever I can to try to convert them and the upshot is that I am starting to wonder if I will have to just cut them off if they refuse to listen. This may sound cold but I'm sure that many would feel the same way if their family tortured or killed people. Has anyone else struggled to spend time with meat eaters who refuse to listen to the truth about how the meat is produced? I find it especially hard to understand how a dog lover could eat meat if they knew the truth.
 
Yes. Welcome to the forum. Your frustrations are nothing new or novel. I think everyone here has dealt with it. And in different ways so that should be interesting and educational for you. You might want to try using the search function and find some of the threads on this subject. For a lot of us its an old and tired subject (a lot of us are old and tired too) and we don't want to talk about it anymore. Try putting in "friends" or "family" or "non-vegan" in the search box. I just did and found a lot of threads.

The phenomena you are alluding to is called cognitive dissonance. Specifically vegans have dubbed it The Meat Paradox. You can google those phrases and find lots of good articles on the subject, too.

IMHO, the best resource for talking to non-vegans is Dr. Melanie Joy. she is a social psychologist. Her book, Why we love dogs, eat pigs, and wear cows, an introduction to carnism, is worth reading. She also has a bunch of YouTube videos. And a Ted Talk.

This video is a good place to start. And its really short

On a more personal level, I think your level of empathy must be in the top percentile of the GP and way high compared to most vegans I know. Getting it at 12 is not that unusual. Most 3rd graders stop eating bacon for a while after reading Charlotte's Web. but sticking with those values into adulthood is unusual. I didn't even start becoming vegan till I was 40. So for me its relatively easy for me to forgive my Carnist friends and family - I used to be just like them. So you will have a harder row to sow.
 
Yes. Welcome to the forum. Your frustrations are nothing new or novel. I think everyone here has dealt with it. And in different ways so that should be interesting and educational for you. You might want to try using the search function and find some of the threads on this subject. For a lot of us its an old and tired subject (a lot of us are old and tired too) and we don't want to talk about it anymore. Try putting in "friends" or "family" or "non-vegan" in the search box. I just did and found a lot of threads.

The phenomena you are alluding to is called cognitive dissonance. Specifically vegans have dubbed it The Meat Paradox. You can google those phrases and find lots of good articles on the subject, too.

IMHO, the best resource for talking to non-vegans is Dr. Melanie Joy. she is a social psychologist. Her book, Why we love dogs, eat pigs, and wear cows, an introduction to carnism, is worth reading. She also has a bunch of YouTube videos. And a Ted Talk.

This video is a good place to start. And its really short

On a more personal level, I think your level of empathy must be in the top percentile of the GP and way high compared to most vegans I know. Getting it at 12 is not that unusual. Most 3rd graders stop eating bacon for a while after reading Charlotte's Web. but sticking with those values into adulthood is unusual. I didn't even start becoming vegan till I was 40. So for me its relatively easy for me to forgive my Carnist friends and family - I used to be just like them. So you will have a harder row to sow.
Thanks for your response, that's very helpful. I do wonder how most teenagers imagine animals being slaughtered since it's never really talked about and I don't think many people look it up, it's hard for me to understand how people don't think about it but then I also got upset every time someone killed an insect from about the age of 12, I couldn't understand how everyone else just killed them without thinking twice but I suppose very few people feel that way too.

It's nice to hear you referring to it as empathy - my parents think empathy only applies to how we feel about humans and they think I'm intolerant and rude when I try to educate them on how meat is produced and why I think it's wrong to eat it. And when I talked about cows being raped, my dad just laughed and said they don't have a concept of rape because they're not human. 😠

I really respect you for being a vegan. 😊
 
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Hi mlod54. In my experience, the best way to inspire others is to lead by example. If you simply enjoy your delicious-looking food, without making accusations of animal murder or rape, then people will notice how good your food looks. They will even try vegan food themselves (although they likely won't share this fact with you, because people value their independence of power-of-choice). Don't push, don't try to control - it doesn't work.
 
Have you ever seen Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure?
There is a scene where someone says to bill or ted, "What are you ignorant or apathetic?"
and the answer was, "don't know, don't care."

Empathy is an interesting subject too. Although it appears to be a natural emotion, I think it can be developed (or cultivated?) Why do some people have so little while others have so much?

I know that scientists who study wild animals have detected what they think is empathy in all kinds of animals.
 
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Have you ever seen Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure?
There is a scene where someone says to bill or ted, "What are you ignorant or apathetic?"
and the answer was, "don't know, don't care."

Empathy is an interesting subject too. Although it appears to be a natural emotion, I think it can be developed (or cultivated?) Why do some people have so little while others have so much?

I know that scientists who study wild animals have detected what they think is empathy in all kinds of animals.
I haven't seen it but I'll look it up. 👍

Yeah I definitely think it's empathy. Frustratingly my parents think that empathy only applies to thinking about humans though so they think that my efforts to convert them show a lack of empathy. In fact, when I tried to go veggie at the age of 15 my mum said I was at an age where people lose their empathy and that's how she saw my decision as she felt that it was very rude to her. I understand that brain scans have shown that vegetarians and vegans tend to have more energy than meat eaters though.

I think it would be great if there were more vegan activists who were over 50. My dad thinks it's only young people who go vegan (other than for health reasons) and that he knows better as he's had more life experience. He can't see the problem with eating meat as he says that wild animals suffer much more when they're eaten and he sees cows and pigs in fields and concludes that all livestock have a nice life. It's so infuriating that nothing I say will make my family realise that consuming animal products causes unnecessary suffering and so can't be justified.
 
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Used to. I guess that's the result of going vegan, wondering why everyone else isn't. I kinda learned to block that feeling out so it doesn't drive me mad.
Yeah I suppose there's only so much we can do. I do wonder whether or not I'd still be a monster in the eyes of the animals if they saw me socialising with meat eaters. Maybe one of the reasons most people bury the head in the sand is that they worry that social interactions would be harder.
 
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Yes. Not just family, but many people. Like you, I did my research and armed myself with facts and then went out in the world to try to help others see what is to you and me, blatantly obvious. Though it is the right, good and honorable fight, I found that it left me a bitter, angry, exhausted and frustrated person at the end of the day. On top of the fact that I didn’t feel as though I changed anyone’s mind. Most people seemed to dig in and enjoy their attempts to trigger me into a spiral of unending arguments. Even friends of mine with whom I agree with on virtually every other social and political platform.

In order to keep my sanity, I have since tried to be a vegan warrior who leads by example. I try to be non-confrontational, provide facts and education but not judgement, and continuously remind myself that everyone has their own path. In my opinion, the best way to get people to adopt an ethical, empathetic, vegan lifestyle is to leave them wanting to emulate you. Understanding that I will not reach a large percentage of the people that surround me, I accept that the most I can do is plant a seed in the hearts and minds of those who may one day see the light and begin the journey on their own. Just as one of my friends did for me, long before I stopped eating animals. I too, was resistant at first. But the seed he planted grew, and here I am, 15 years vegan. But I had to come around on my own. It took me a very long time to get to this point, and I think of myself as quite open-minded. It really shouldn’t have taken me so long to see the light, but it did.

Accept the fact that there are some who will never change. That’s ok, because the world is changing with or without them. And it doesn’t matter - because you can still make an impression on them that will stick, just by virtue of being who you are.

I applaud your determination and passion. Your story is wonderful and reflects a mature, empathetic soul and character well beyond your years whose life will no doubt influence the lives of everyone who meets you. Stay strong, be proud. Carry the torch high and let the flames temper your spirit, not burn you.
 
Yes. Not just family, but many people. Like you, I did my research and armed myself with facts and then went out in the world to try to help others see what is to you and me, blatantly obvious. Though it is the right, good and honorable fight, I found that it left me a bitter, angry, exhausted and frustrated person at the end of the day. On top of the fact that I didn’t feel as though I changed anyone’s mind. Most people seemed to dig in and enjoy their attempts to trigger me into a spiral of unending arguments. Even friends of mine with whom I agree with on virtually every other social and political platform.

In order to keep my sanity, I have since tried to be a vegan warrior who leads by example. I try to be non-confrontational, provide facts and education but not judgement, and continuously remind myself that everyone has their own path. In my opinion, the best way to get people to adopt an ethical, empathetic, vegan lifestyle is to leave them wanting to emulate you. Understanding that I will not reach a large percentage of the people that surround me, I accept that the most I can do is plant a seed in the hearts and minds of those who may one day see the light and begin the journey on their own. Just as one of my friends did for me, long before I stopped eating animals. I too, was resistant at first. But the seed he planted grew, and here I am, 15 years vegan. But I had to come around on my own. It took me a very long time to get to this point, and I think of myself as quite open-minded. It really shouldn’t have taken me so long to see the light, but it did.

Accept the fact that there are some who will never change. That’s ok, because the world is changing with or without them. And it doesn’t matter - because you can still make an impression on them that will stick, just by virtue of being who you are.

I applaud your determination and passion. Your story is wonderful and reflects a mature, empathetic soul and character well beyond your years whose life will no doubt influence the lives of everyone who meets you. Stay strong, be proud. Carry the torch high and let the flames temper your spirit, not burn you.
You sound like an amazing person! :) Thanks so much for sharing your journey! Even if people disagree with us (which I can't understand), I can't see why they don't realise that it's a good thing to try to pursuade others to change their ways if it's for moral reasons.
 
I admire that you were so young and had such compassion for animals and wanted to make lifestyle changes to avoid being part of the problem.

I am in the same situation you are in. My entire family are omnivores and none of them lose sleep at night over the suffering of animals.
In my early twenties, I did what you did: provided videos and information. But it didn't change them. I decided the best thing, the wisest thing to do was to accept them for who they are and realize that one day, they will care. Maybe not in this lifetime, even, but one day, perhaps in their next life, they will.

I enjoy them for the good in them. I tell myself that they are just a little behind, spiritually, and that they are going at their own pace towards a higher vibrational way of being. Don't disown them over this. Veganism is based on compassion and in this situation, have compassion for their ignorance. d
 
I admire that you were so young and had such compassion for animals and wanted to make lifestyle changes to avoid being part of the problem.

I am in the same situation you are in. My entire family are omnivores and none of them lose sleep at night over the suffering of animals.
In my early twenties, I did what you did: provided videos and information. But it didn't change them. I decided the best thing, the wisest thing to do was to accept them for who they are and realize that one day, they will care. Maybe not in this lifetime, even, but one day, perhaps in their next life, they will.

I enjoy them for the good in them. I tell myself that they are just a little behind, spiritually, and that they are going at their own pace towards a higher vibrational way of being. Don't disown them over this. Veganism is based on compassion and in this situation, have compassion for their ignorance. d
That's amazing that you've realised why it's better to be vegan and good luck with your journey! Respect for that but if there was another holocaust and your family were the equivalent of nazis, would you not disown them over that either?
 
I get what you are saying. When I come across some footage of factory farm conditions, I get so angry that it is allowed to go on. It's horrific. But I can't turn my back on my family. I have seen their frailty, their vulnerabilities. They are not sociopaths. They are not monsters. I think, as ethical vegans, we need to see the good in people who are not vegan. It's incredibly important we do so because if we don't, not only are we doing a disservice to our own spiritual growth, but we are possibly making it harder for them to see the good in being vegan, and slowing down their pace to becoming vegan themselves.

If my family members were actively serving a nazi leader and assisting in the annihilation of a group of people, it would be a lot easier for me to distance myself. Why would that be easier for me than the annihilation of animals? I don't know.
 
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I get what you are saying. When I come across some footage of factory farm conditions, I get so angry that it is allowed to go on. It's horrific. But I can't turn my back on my family. I have seen their frailty, their vulnerabilities. They are not sociopaths. They are not monsters. I think, as ethical vegans, we need to see the good in people who are not vegan. It's incredibly important we do so because if we don't, not only are we doing a disservice to our own spiritual growth, but we are possibly making it harder for them to see the good in being vegan, and slowing down their pace to becoming vegan themselves.

If my family members were actively serving a nazi leader and assisting in the annihilation of a group of people, it would be a lot easier for me to distance myself. Why would that be easier for me than the annihilation of animals? I don't know.
I know how you feel. So for me I can't understand why my family don't feel the same way and also because my parents went as far as to punish me for trying to go veggie as a child, that makes them even more immoral in my eyes.

Maybe most people don't see it like this but I think that although it's somewhat understandable for others to eat meat blindly, if they have been made aware of what is going on then to me they are a bit like a Nazi and I feel that it would be an insult to the animals to have a nice time with such people. My parents are very unhappy about the situation but in my view they deserve to be punished!
 
I was brought up in a strict "born again" family where anyone who wasn't part of our church was an other "of this world/worldly" and therefore not fit to be associated with other than to try to save their soul. This is a horrible judgey way of life. It is harmful to them and also to the very people they are trying to "save".

Living by example and being loving and kind and non-judgemental is a much happier life, for me and for them. They have learned that they still love me despite my no longer following their beliefs and because I have walked in their shoes I still love them. This applies to veganism as well. When I get together with them, they have gone out of their way to accommodate my eating habits and I repay that by not judging them for their ways. If they change even a small amount everytime then that is good and I have to always remember that up until 6 years ago I was not so dissimilar to them and I was scarfing down the cheese and bacon and eggs too.

Would I prefer they were vegan? of course. Would be prefer I was still 'born again'? of course. Doesn't change that I love them.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com
 
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I was brought up in a strict "born again" family where anyone who wasn't part of our church was an other "of this world/worldly" and therefore not fit to be associated with other than to try to save their soul. This is a horrible judgey way of life. It is harmful to them and also to the very people they are trying to "save".

Living by example and being loving and kind and non-judgemental is a much happier life, for me and for them. They have learned that they still love me despite my no longer following their beliefs and because I have walked in their shoes I still love them. This applies to veganism as well. When I get together with them, they have gone out of their way to accommodate my eating habits and I repay that by not judging them for their ways. If they change even a small amount everytime then that is good and I have to always remember that up until 6 years ago I was not so dissimilar to them and I was scarfing down the cheese and bacon and eggs too.

Would I prefer they were vegan? of course. Would be prefer I was still 'born again'? of course. Doesn't change that I love them.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com
Respect for that but the thing is that for me, as I tried to go veggie at 12 and 15 and my parents stopped me, I feel that they are extra immoral for stopping me and I am so angry about this and also to be honest I can't really understand why anyone thinks it's ok to eat meat, I am really struggling to get my head around how people as old as my parents could get to that age and still think it's the right thing to do. Also as I have told them about lots of the cruel ways in which animals are treated, this makes them seem much worse to me than people who eat meat blindly. The same question to you that I asked someone else, if we had another holocaust and your family were the equivalent of nazis would you still love them and not judge them?
 
I would still love them, I would judge their actions and behaviours for sure. Therein lies the difference, imo. People/family/friends are human and as such we are all flawed in one way or another. There are some people that have mental illnesses and there are psychopaths and narcissists etc however most people are just a product of their upbringing, teachings, community etc and many behaviours are embedded so deeply that they do not even know why they do what they do. (as one famous 'teacher' said, while he was dying "forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do")

People are one thing and their behaviours are another. I am still the same kind sweet loving person I was before going vegan, I just have new behaviours and actions. I did not suddenly become who I am after becoming vegan. I think that is what you have to remember and internalize for yourself.

I was very upset with many of the restrictions that my family had when I was growing up. I was very upset with the way that they talked about and treated other people who were not "us". I am thankful that I was able to escape that system and be the person that I am and I am grateful for being brought up, as I was, because that helped to turn me into the person that I am today. In spite of some of their behaviours, much of our lives were happy and joyful and loving and we travelled and went to cottages etc etc. I choose to remember and embrace the good and show them by living my life in a loving way that there are other options and that has born fruit in that some of my siblings are much less "judgemental" and strict and so kind and loving in their own ways despite the fact that they are not vegan.

I look at what is happening in the US right now and some of behaviours there are not so different from the holocaust/Nazi era and the US is not the only place this is happening. Each of these persons is an individual who is worth loving despite their despicable behaviour.

I can only shine my own light and hope that it lights up a few lives along the way and that is enough to help the animals, the environment and their/my health.

This may sound condescending, I hope not... at 26 I was pretty sure I knew everything about a lot of things and was probably much more judgemental than I am now. I know a lot more now and also know that I am barely scratching the surface and so am much more tolerant of my own and other's flaws. I do hope, for your sake, that you can find it in yourself to forgive and love your family. That doesn't mean that you have to spend tons of time with them, I don't, it just means that you accept them for who they are and live an example for them, not only of being vegan but of being a kind and loving person in all aspects of your life.

Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth" helped me a lot when I was younger, along with many of Wayne Dyer and Deepak Chopra's books. Kind and loving humans all.

hugs for you and all the best in your journey to your best self

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com
 
Respect for that but the thing is that for me, as I tried to go veggie at 12 and 15 and my parents stopped me, I feel that they are extra immoral for stopping me and I am so angry about this and also to be honest I can't really understand why anyone thinks it's ok to eat meat, I am really struggling to get my head around how people as old as my parents could get to that age and still think it's the right thing to do. Also as I have told them about lots of the cruel ways in which animals are treated, this makes them seem much worse to me than people who eat meat blindly. The same question to you that I asked someone else, if we had another holocaust and your family were the equivalent of nazis would you still love them and not judge them?
Parents get all kinds of things wrong, so often attempting to do their best. As a parent, I'm very guilty!

If what we do to animals was an isolated horror I would totally agree with your stance, but there are so many atrocities the ordinary person overlooks.
The world is full of people who do so many charitable things, and yet don't think twice about eating or using animals.
 
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I went vegan 14 years ago, and my family and friends offered lots of resistance. I explained at the outset why I was doing it (for the animals), and pretty much left it at that. I gave them all the info I could and let them digest it. Over the years, I've watched them embrace nondairy milks, vegan baked goods I make and vegan foods I share with them. My mom has now given up beef, my sister doesn't drink dairy milk anymore, and my dad absolutely loves the vegan seitan sausages I make (he even asks for them now!). I figure I was once like them. It took me a while to get where I am, so I feel like I can't really judge them for not following my lead completely. But even these little changes make a difference. Every time they drink nondairy milk, it's one less glass of dairy milk being consumed. Small steps.
 
I went vegan 14 years ago, and my family and friends offered lots of resistance. I explained at the outset why I was doing it (for the animals), and pretty much left it at that. I gave them all the info I could and let them digest it. Over the years, I've watched them embrace nondairy milks, vegan baked goods I make and vegan foods I share with them. My mom has now given up beef, my sister doesn't drink dairy milk anymore, and my dad absolutely loves the vegan seitan sausages I make (he even asks for them now!). I figure I was once like them. It took me a while to get where I am, so I feel like I can't really judge them for not following my lead completely. But even these little changes make a difference. Every time they drink nondairy milk, it's one less glass of dairy milk being consumed. Small steps.
That's great and I'm really glad to hear that you've inspired them to at least reduce their consumption of animal products. Massive respect to you. I think for me it's a particular issue because my parents were so horrible and punished me for going veggie as a child; I know most vegans don't feel this way but I felt guilty about eating meat since I was about 12 and am so angry with my parents for shutting down the moral side of me and myself for being manipulated by them; they have a way of making it sound as though everything they're saying is right even if it's actually rubbish and it's taken a long time for me to see through that. On top of this, when I tried to go veggie as a child my parents pointed to cows in fields and said they have a lovely life and that an animals are slaughtered humanely but recently when I've tried to tell them about the reality, they say I haven't told them anything they don't already know. Which means first of all they lied to me and secondly I can't understand why they aren't vegans if they know the truth - in my view they are so much worse than people who eat meat blindly! And they say they respect my views and are happy to cook vegan food for me if I go to visit but I feel that's only because they want to see me and if they truly respected my views, why didn't they do so when I was a child? It just feels too late now! Sorry if I'm ranting.
 
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