Baffled about this forum

[g0rph]

I did not write my entire post ( up the top) in bold - l have no idea why you are saying that . And I am not attacking you - I am defending myself , as far as I'm concerned . No I don't wish to discuss . I do appreciate the apology , but I'm done . Too old and too much body pain to discuss what , to me , is a very simple matter ..
Thank you and take care .

Weird. The whole post on my screen looks huge.



Oh well.No worries.
And yep, it's a simple matter, but there is a lot to discuss. Some here eat eggs they view as ethical, some have "pets", some are vegetarian and some are flex.
In the end, it is a discussion forum
And for people like me (who know exactly zero other vegans living near me) it's an outlet.
I'm not far behind you, age-wise and I live with my non-vegan family. The vystopia is a daily stress.
Take care.

 

[1956]

Hello @Ruthie
I hope that you continue to contribute to this Forum…
It seems that misunderstandings are common when it comes to communicating in text form…
As to how your original post appears - on my tablet it is not in Bold it is in Large dark letters - much different than Bold - which I found Easy to read!
I would Very much enjoy hearing more about your life in Tasmania!
If anyone disapproves of exclamation marks then they probably don’t Enjoy reading my posts!

 

[Jamie in Chile]

For me, the whole post is not in bold. The text is larger than average but no issue with that. I think criticizing for the use of the bold was unfair.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Lou - l am 65 years old and have been a vegan for 48 years .. I have had gazillions of conversations with non-vegans about veganism .. I have heard decades of other points of view , explored other ideas , been challenged , insulted , questioned , ridiculed etc... etc .. etc .. My ethical core values began when l was a child , and they have never wavered , even though it has been examined , thoroughly , by me and others .. To assume my life is "unexamined " ( Socrates) is unwise .. Assumptions in general are unwise , but this one's a beauty ..!

So - thank you , but l have already had " my wit sharpened , my knowledge base increased and my horizons expanded .."

You don't know me , so it would be best not to assume anything about me(except my veganism) - it would be better to ask me first .
Ruthie

Well you said you were baffled and asked a lot of questions so you are going to get some debate and opinions.

You seem to be taking Lou's comments as if were a personal attack on you but actually it can equally or more likely be read as a comment to the community at large, so it seems like your comments are a bit harsh here so I want to defend Lou for his quite reasonable contribution.

He referred to the need to examine "our" values, beliefs, ethics, morals, philosophy not yours specifically when referencing Socrates.

It does seem reasonable that you have made up your mind. But there will be plenty of route for debate for others still.

 

[Tom L.]

Hi everyone ,
I'm feeling a bit baffled by this forum . I joined because l wanted to connect to other vegans .
However , firstly it seems that animaI -eaters are members too ( flexitarian ? This is just a fancy word for omnivore , or the average meat-eater out there - so why are they wanting to be in this forum ?)

I have only partially quoted your post, both here and below. I was never flexitarian- but way back in the late 1960s, I was a pescatarian: I ate no flesh from mammals or birds, but everything else was an option. After a few years, I realized I had empathy for fishes and other cold-blooded creatures, and stopped eating them. It took FAR too long for me to grasp the suffering and death inherent in milk or egg production, but eventually I swore them off, too.

I think veganism seems extremely restrictive (at first) to most of us who grew up omnivore, depending on how many vegan foods we are already familiar with. "Flexitarianism" might be an alternative stepping-stone or waystation for some folks who are initially hesitant to take the plunge, and let them "ease into" a more complete avoidance of other products whose production involves cruelty to animals.

....Surely if you feel you have to eat pretend-meat , you must be feeling like you must fit in ? Surely this is a sign of not feeling confident in your difference ?

(your post only partially quoted) Not necessarily. I'm fortunate: there are plenty of vegan options for me other than pretend-meats, so I can manage quite well without them. But I always did enjoy non-vegan foods, and still would if I allowed myself to eat them. It's nice to have them as an option. (And it sometimes makes a favorable impression on non-vegan folks when they see that you still have appetizing foods that taste similar to what they're eating now. Okay- I haven't yet come across something that duplicates a rare burger- but I don't think I'd be able to tell much, if any, difference between a veggie burger and a well-done beef burger from McDonald's or Burger King.)

 

[silva]

Hi everyone ,
I'm feeling a bit baffled by this forum . I joined because l wanted to connect to other vegans .
However , firstly it seems that animaI -eaters are members too ( flexitarian ? This is just a fancy word for omnivore , or the average meat-eater out there - so why are they wanting to be in this forum ?)
Secondly , there seems to be debate about what actually is "vegan" .. Er ... come on - it's pretty simple . A vegan is someone who doesn't knowingly consume or use animal products .. There's no grey area there . It just is ..

So I'm baffled by the "can eggs be vegan ? " thread - of course they can't be ..
And if I delve further into other threads , similar things come up . Lots of people who think we need to have "pretend -meat" labels on food items .. Why do we have to go by the "standard" of meat-eating ? Why can't we just have our own food , labelled exactly as it is?

Surely if you feel you have to eat pretend-meat , you must be feeling like you must fit in ? Surely this is a sign of not feeling confident in your difference ?

Why are we bending ourselves into conforming ? Because to me , that is what pretend-meat labels are - they are conforming to the dead-animal labels that the average person uses .
I love people who are different from average and embrace that . People who don't wish to travel the same old worn road and who live by their own core-values and ethics . People who are okay with not conforming to what they don't agree with .

I love people who walk the path of their own hearts and don't bend themselves to fit in with what passes as "normal" ..

Can we just embrace our veganism without all of the doubts and conforming behaviour and attitudes ?

Thank you for the space to express this ,
Ruthie

Hi everyone ,
I'm feeling a bit baffled by this forum . I joined because l wanted to connect to other vegans .
However , firstly it seems that animaI -eaters are members too ( flexitarian ? This is just a fancy word for omnivore , or the average meat-eater out there - so why are they wanting to be in this forum ?)
Secondly , there seems to be debate about what actually is "vegan" .. Er ... come on - it's pretty simple . A vegan is someone who doesn't knowingly consume or use animal products .. There's no grey area there . It just is ..

So I'm baffled by the "can eggs be vegan ? " thread - of course they can't be ..
And if I delve further into other threads , similar things come up . Lots of people who think we need to have "pretend -meat" labels on food items .. Why do we have to go by the "standard" of meat-eating ? Why can't we just have our own food , labelled exactly as it is?

Surely if you feel you have to eat pretend-meat , you must be feeling like you must fit in ? Surely this is a sign of not feeling confident in your difference ?

Why are we bending ourselves into conforming ? Because to me , that is what pretend-meat labels are - they are conforming to the dead-animal labels that the average person uses .
I love people who are different from average and embrace that . People who don't wish to travel the same old worn road and who live by their own core-values and ethics . People who are okay with not conforming to what they don't agree with .

I love people who walk the path of their own hearts and don't bend themselves to fit in with what passes as "normal" ..

Can we just embrace our veganism without all of the doubts and conforming behaviour and attitudes ?

Thank you for the space to express this ,
Ruthie

I may be misunderstanding, but it seems contradictory to say a vegan doesn't use animal products, no grey area, then follow it with a condemnation of eating vegan foods that use words that describe animal products. It sounds as if you are the one asking for conforming behavior!

I make seitan, and all kinds of dairy substitutes. I have tried to just say either shreddy seitan, or deli seitan--but letting others taste it I get the response--'so it's like chick'n', or beef or whatever seasoned I've used. No ones ever been 'tricked', but they have liked it, and quite frankly, I'm okay with that. I'm also ok with people going plant based for any and all reasons. It's called cooking!
I enjoy discussions with omnivores, and miss some we've had here. Majorbloodnok in particular. There is so much misery, abuse, and hate in this world. I certainly could never be ok with someone who advocates misogyny, nationalism, racism or lgbtq discrimination yet calls themselves vegan

 

[silva]

I see many people who truly believe plant based diets are best but for various reasons, good and bad, are not willing to follow them. It's far easier when you're not responsible for others

 

[Ruthie]

I may be misunderstanding, but it seems contradictory to say a vegan doesn't use animal products, no grey area, then follow it with a condemnation of eating vegan foods that use words that describe animal products. It sounds as if you are the one asking for conforming behavior!

I make seitan, and all kinds of dairy substitutes. I have tried to just say either shreddy seitan, or deli seitan--but letting others taste it I get the response--'so it's like chick'n', or beef or whatever seasoned I've used. No ones ever been 'tricked', but they have liked it, and quite frankly, I'm okay with that. I'm also ok with people going plant based for any and all reasons. It's called cooking!
I enjoy discussions with omnivores, and miss some we've had here. Majorbloodnok in particular. There is so much misery, abuse, and hate in this world. I certainly could never be ok with someone who advocates misogyny, nationalism, racism or lgbtq discrimination yet calls themselves vegan

Excuse me ? Now l am confused - how and why am l being associated with someone who is a misogynist , racist etc ?

And l object to the exaggeration - "condemnation " Really ??? All l said was it seems like conforming to meat-eaters , to me ..

Weird. The whole post on my screen looks huge.
View attachment 34026


Oh well.No worries.
And yep, it's a simple matter, but there is a lot to discuss. Some here eat eggs they view as ethical, some have "pets", some are vegetarian and some are flex.
In the end, it is a discussion forum
And for people like me (who know exactly zero other vegans living near me) it's an outlet.
I'm not far behind you, age-wise and I live with my non-vegan family. The vystopia is a daily stress.
Take care.

Actually l want to reply to Gorph but l can't see how to do that .
Some of us are older and have eyesight issues - l have cataracts and recurrent corneal erosion , so a bigger font is better for me .. So l am so sorry Gorph , that you find my bigger font so offensive . This smaller font right now l am having trouble seeing .

And this may be a discussion forum but it doesn't mean that every detail has to be thrashed out ad infinitum .

 

[g0rph]

Excuse me ? Now l am confused - how and why am l being associated with someone who is a misogynist , racist etc ?

And l object to the exaggeration - "condemnation " Really ??? All l said was it seems like conforming to meat-eaters , to me ..

Actually l want to reply to Gorph but l can't see how to do that .
Some of us are older and have eyesight issues - l have cataracts and recurrent corneal erosion , so a bigger font is better for me .. So l am so sorry Gorph , that you find my bigger font so offensive . This smaller font right now l am having trouble seeing .

And this may be a discussion forum but it doesn't mean that every detail has to be thrashed out ad infinitum .

I agree. And I apologise unreservedly again
It's all too small for me too with astigmatism and long-sightedness (+2.5). I press CTRL and wheel the mouse up to make the screen bigger if needed (I'm on PC)

The problem with your solution is only your posts look bigger when really you need every post to be readable. What device do you read on? Maybe I can suggest something? (I'm in software development)

Anyhoo, back to the other discussion. Yeah, not sure what the "misogynist , racist" thing was about either.

But I have no issue with pretend meat.
In the end I love meat. I miss meat. I just don't eat it because it has a victim. And my enjoyment does not warrant what happens to the poor creatures humans eat and wear and slap on their faces or whatever.


If you don't like that, that's great. We are all different.

 

[silva]

Excuse me ? Now l am confused - how and why am l being associated with someone who is a misogynist , racist etc ?

And l object to the exaggeration - "condemnation " Really ??? All l said was it seems like conforming to meat-eaters , to me ..

Actually l want to reply to Gorph but l can't see how to do that .
Some of us are older and have eyesight issues - l have cataracts and recurrent corneal erosion , so a bigger font is better for me .. So l am so sorry Gorph , that you find my bigger font so offensive . This smaller font right now l am having trouble seeing .

And this may be a discussion forum but it doesn't mean that every detail has to be thrashed out ad infinitum .

My statement of not caring whether someone is vegan if they don't care about humans wasn't at all meant for you! I'm sorry I wasn't clear, it's just been on my mind

And if I delve further into other threads , similar things come up . Lots of people who think we need to have "pretend -meat" labels on food items .. Why do we have to go by the "standard" of meat-eating ? Why can't we just have our own food , labelled exactly as it is?

Surely if you feel you have to eat pretend-meat , you must be feeling like you must fit in ? Surely this is a sign of not feeling confident in your difference ?

Why are we bending ourselves into conforming ? Because to me , that is what pretend-meat labels are - they are conforming to the dead-animal labels that the average person uses .
I love people who are different from average and embrace that . People who don't wish to travel the same old worn road and who live by their own core-values and ethics . People who are okay with not conforming to what they don't agree with .

I love people who walk the path of their own hearts and don't bend themselves to fit in with what passes as "normal" ..

Can we just embrace our veganism without all of the doubts and conforming behaviour and attitudes ?

Just sounded judgmental to me. I am not troubled by anyone wanting to eat things that mimic meat, whether they're transitioning or long time vegan. Animals are food and the decision to not eat them doesn't always mean you didn't like to eat them. It's hard coming up with new names that people will accept. I admit, I do hate calling things by meat names when there are so many better names. Like calling chickpea spread 'tuna', or a sauce made of veggies cheese.

 

[Ruthie]

I agree. And I apologise unreservedly again
It's all too small for me too with astigmatism and long-sightedness (+2.5). I press CTRL and wheel the mouse up to make the screen bigger if needed (I'm on PC)

The problem with your solution is only your posts look bigger when really you need every post to be readable. What device do you read on? Maybe I can suggest something? (I'm in software development)

Anyhoo, back to the other discussion. Yeah, not sure what the "misogynist , racist" thing was about either.

But I have no issue with pretend meat.
In the end I love meat. I miss meat. I just don't eat it because it has a victim. And my enjoyment does not warrant what happens to the poor creatures humans eat and wear and slap on their faces or whatever.


If you don't like that, that's great. We are all different.

Thank you Gorph .

Yes we are different but that's fine ..
I also get brain fog from the same condition that gives me recurrent corneal erosion , and right now my brain feels too tired for this .

Thanks for the offer of technical assistance though .

Cheers .

 

[silva]

@Ruthie--I need to just retract my response--I've been on edge and may not come across how I'd like
I feel I agree with you about the naming of vegan foods, just in a different way

What does concern me is how vegan is used interchangeably with wfpb. Sure a vegan can eat wfbp, but, it isn't implied. WFPB eaters aren't necessarily vegan.

 

[Ruthie]

My statement of not caring whether someone is vegan if they don't care about humans wasn't at all meant for you! I'm sorry I wasn't clear, it's just been on my mind

Just sounded judgmental to me. I am not troubled by anyone wanting to eat things that mimic meat, whether they're transitioning or long time vegan. Animals are food and the decision to not eat them doesn't always mean you didn't like to eat them. It's hard coming up with new names that people will accept. I admit, I do hate calling things by meat names when there are so many better names. Like calling chickpea spread 'tuna', or a sauce made of veggies cheese.

No it wasn't being judgemental ..
And l can not agree that animals are food - we will certainly have to agree to disagree there . I see a beautiful sentient being when l look at animals - l don't see "food " . I admit l am a bit stunned at this - l did not realise that some vegans still see animals as food .. Not judging you , just expressing my feelings about it okay ? ( l feel like l have to tiptoe around eggshells in here now )
The very thought of any animal flesh in my mouth makes me want to throw up - it is disgusting to me .. I can't relate to the " animals are food " thought .

The points l was trying to make in my original post seem to have been misunderstood or mistaken for judgement ..

It is no longer enjoyable for me in here . It seems to have become a verbal exchange of accusations and reactions etc.. ( yes I include myself in this)

I am awaiting a response from someone in the private message area , and after that l will leave this forum .

Clearly l don't belong in here - l seem to be too different from most of you ..
Don't worry - l'll be gone very soon .

 

[Ruthie]

@Ruthie--I need to just retract my response--I've been on edge and may not come across how I'd like
I feel I agree with you about the naming of vegan foods, just in a different way

What does concern me is how vegan is used interchangeably with wfpb. Sure a vegan can eat wfbp, but, it isn't implied. WFPB eaters aren't necessarily vegan.

It's fine , Silva .
Let's just forget it okay ?

 

[silva]

@Ruthie--I don't want you gone, you seem to fit this forum very well, you are vegan. I don't naturally have 'empathy'. I do have an acute sense of justice, and recognition of right and wrong, and how that can change.
I don't see animals as food or commodities, I can't even imagine it, but I can understand situations where people would feel the need. I mean everything alive is food
Anyway, there are so many wrong in this world it's hard to be right on everything
Heck, we're all different here, I hate to see most people leave. I appreciate you

 

[Ruthie]

Thank you for this , Silva , but I think I have worked out the problem .

Being a vegan for as long as l have ( 48 years , since the age of 17) means I have debated , discussed , argued , compared , listened , been listened to , been insulted . and etc ., etc.. repeatedly over the decades - and l just don't feel the urge or need to do that any more . I joined this site to connect to other vegans - to possibly offer up some advice to the younger ones or newbies ... to empathise with those finding it tough going in the face of external disapproval - to offer friendship to those feeling lonely and alone in the world .. etc.. etc..

Someone in this thread said something like " Well it's a discussion forum so .... " but l beg to differ .. I can't find the heading "Discussion Forum" anywhere - surely this is just a forum .. yes ? So - there's no rule that says all posts have to be discussed ad infinitum and every detail someone says has to be scrutinised until it's completely torn apart ...

Some of you may wish to do this , but l don't .. I have made the mistake of making comments and expressing feelings about things - and obviously l regret that now ..
I should have just looked for the threads where l might be of some assistance or be able to offer some loving words ..

My mistake . Now can we all just leave it be now ?
I still feel like l don't belong in here - maybe l need a forum of oldie vegans like me , who are done with all of the debating and discussion and just wish to connect to other like-minded /hearted vegans .. ?

Ruthie

 

[g0rph]

Thank you for this , Silva , but I think I have worked out the problem .

Being a vegan for as long as l have ( 48 years , since the age of 17) means I have debated , discussed , argued , compared , listened , been listened to , been insulted . and etc ., etc.. repeatedly over the decades - and l just don't feel the urge or need to do that any more . I joined this site to connect to other vegans - to possibly offer up some advice to the younger ones or newbies ... to empathise with those finding it tough going in the face of external disapproval - to offer friendship to those feeling lonely and alone in the world .. etc.. etc..

Someone in this thread said something like " Well it's a discussion forum so .... " but l beg to differ .. I can't find the heading "Discussion Forum" anywhere - surely this is just a forum .. yes ? So - there's no rule that says all posts have to be discussed ad infinitum and every detail someone says has to be scrutinised until it's completely torn apart ...

Some of you may wish to do this , but l don't .. I have made the mistake of making comments and expressing feelings about things - and obviously l regret that now ..
I should have just looked for the threads where l might be of some assistance or be able to offer some loving words ..

My mistake . Now can we all just leave it be now ?
I still feel like l don't belong in here - maybe l need a forum of oldie vegans like me , who are done with all of the debating and discussion and just wish to connect to other like-minded /hearted vegans .. ?

Ruthie

You should definitely hang around. Maybe simply avoid discussions about ethics and interpretations of veganism. There are lots of cool pages in the forum...food, reading/watching, support etc.
I'm impressed at how long you've managed it, 48 years is a long time and I imagine their were no "fake meats" when you started.
I do use a lot of lentils and beans now, but soy based "minced meat" is my staple. And I always have plant-based burgers and sausages in the freezer for when I'm not up for cooking.

We all see the world through a unique lens. No two people are alike. Me, I tend to be a mix of emotional and very logical
In other words I do see all biological material as food, including animals. We humans are food, or will be eventually unless we're cremated.
Maybe a little dark and morbid, but I used to think that was the best way(cremation), but I've seen some places that allow for composting... seems to me the most eco-friendly way to say goodbye to the world.
No smoke from the body, and wasting valuable nutrients. No expensive lump of wood rotting in the ground, just adding ourselves back to where we came from...

And as far as I can see we are like-minded in the most important way...we don't want to add or contribute any more than we must, to suffering.

 

[silva]

@Ruthie
You make a very good point that has been neglected. A forum for vegans.
Seems many/most here either dint conform to vegan or used to assimilating/accommodating.
I strongly feel that the term vegan should apply to its strict definition, and I can see where that would cause them to feel excluded

@shyvas -
Why don't we have a thread for those who identify as vegan, without the debates?
I'd also a thread (do we already have one? ) for allies -omnis.

 

[shyvas]

@Ruthie
You make a very good point that has been neglected. A forum for vegans.
Seems many/most here either dint conform to vegan or used to assimilating/accommodating.
I strongly feel that the term vegan should apply to its strict definition, and I can see where that would cause them to feel excluded

@shyvas -
Why don't we have a thread for those who identify as vegan, without the debates?
I'd also a thread (do we already have one? ) for allies -omnis.

It was decided 6 years ago to open the forum to omnis as long as they agreed upon registering to the following term: * Animal lives have intrinsic value over and beyond mere objects and human utility.

The reason being that Veggie Views which is now Vegan Forum has an educational role to help omnis who were drawn towards a vegan lifestyle.
Second Summer was determined that our main role was to influence people towards veganism due to the drastic change of social media.

It was also decided that there are only three lifestyles; vegan, vegetarian and other. I would imagine that other means omni. You cannot be a part time vegan.

It would be against our principales to have an only omni section because the entire forum is vegan. If an omni has a question or a concern there is the Support section where they can post to ask for advice. We do not promote any other lifestyle except a vegan one.

There also used to be a Debate Section which was closed down. However, members are free to exchange their thoughts in all sections. I believe that the most heated and lengthy discussions are in the Philosophy section.

When VV merged with VF, we had a huge workload due to the multiple sections and threads. I personally have spent hours doing 'housework' to make sure that the forum would have a logical and attractive layout without duplicate sections and threads. Believe me, too many sections and threads kill a forum. Our main traffic is in the Food, General and the Coffee House threads.

If a member creates a thread, it's obvious that there will be multiple responses with different points of view. Any discussion further to a topic is simply an exchange of thoughts and ideas. Nobody has to win anyone over.

I would simply suggest to anyone, who posts their thoughts but doesn't wish to get sucked up into a hearty discussion, to mention it at the bottom of their post. Moreover, if anyone has a concern that someone is promoting or discussing a lifestyle that promotes animal cruelty, please report it. At times, we are busy irl and don't necessarily read each and every post.

We also cannot stop people voicing their opinions (it's a choice to not over moderate VF) of what they consider to be acceptable to be labelled vegan. I think that most of us would adhere to the Vegan Society definition:

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Ruthie,
There aren't that many good forums.

Can you just stick around in certain threads on this forum.

I think if you can ignore certain threads and view others (like favourite books and recipes/foods), you can fit in.

There does seem to be some difference between some people who are just here to share recipes and embrace veganism and others that want to dissect veganism or even challenge other aspects of it. It might be helpful to have an entire sub-forum where certain types of discussions are off limits. Or have only one sub-forum where certain types of debates are permitted. On the other hand, this creates more hassle for the moderators and in a sense we already have something close to that. That are plenty of threads that are just loving and compassionate and positive and calm.