Are militant vegans good for the veg*n community?

[beancounter]

So, do you believe that a militant approach to outreach is a good thing or a bad thing?
For years, my inclination has been “the more flies with honey than vinegar” approach. I came to this conclusion after years on the Vegan Police force. I was the guy on the sidewalk passing out fliers and telling people they were going to die of a heart attack if they didn’t go vegan. (This was years before anyone had the convenience of Internet anonymity). How many of you are brave enough to do that?

Sounds great doesn’t it? But I came to realize I was acting too much like the other guy on the sidewalk telling people they were going to burn in Hell. How many of us appreciate that?...
Oh, I was a piece of work. I would regularly give waiters a hard time about what was in the food. I would loudly scoff and make my objection clear to half the restaurant if they had chicken stock in the vegetable soup.

I once expressed outrage to the program director when someone suggested curried meat at an Indian cooking class. (I assumed it would be vegan, but the course material never specified so)
I felt great about my righteous choice, keeping my nose high in the air and looking down on the ignorant masses. Part of the exclusive club...

Veg*ns represent about 3-5% of the U.S. population**. It’s been this way for decades, with no meaningful growth. We’re in a constant state of attrition. Why is that? Certainly much of of the general public is aware of veg*nism more than ever before, but the overall numbers remain flat.
Here’s my take on the anemic growth. When extremist recruiting tactics are used, all you end up doing is recruiting other extremist…which further alienates the general public that might otherwise be willing to consider veg*nism.

And extremist are a tiny percent of the population, so the "pool of available recruits" is very small to begin with.

**Any current percentage figure that can be found most likely includes fish and chicken "vegetarians" - so the number is probably overstated.

 

[Mischief]

No, they aren't good for the vegan community, and, more importantly, they aren't good for the cause of nonhuman animals.

 

[RascalsMom]

I think there's a difference between "militant" and "self righteous *******"

 

[beancounter]

I think there's a difference between "militant" and "self righteous *******"

It doesn't matter. Both are detrimental.

 

[Moll Flanders]

I think it's a phase vegans go through when they are first vegan. If someone is being really over the top I assume they haven't been vegan for very long. I know a couple of vegans who have been vegan for 25+ years and they are super cool about it and very laid back.

I think vegetarian and vegan people tend to be very judgmental as a group anyway, I know I am.

 

[flyingsnail]

We’re in a constant state of attrition. Why is that? Certainly much of of the general public is aware of veg*nism more than ever before, but the overall numbers remain flat.

My view, which isn't going to be popular here, is that at the end of the day veganism as currently understood doesn't make that much sense. There are inconsistencies, it lacks a foundation, its extreme and it is just hard to stick with. Though not all ex-vegans start eating bacon cheeseburgers again.

 

[Calliegirl]

Just living my life and showing people I'm a (relatively) normal person, occasionally slipping factory farm facts into conversation when a compatible subject comes up, and always sharing vegan food whenever possible has brought around more people than getting in their face, and judging them for eating meat. My sister and I would sometimes gang up against my dad and talk about the abuse of farm animals, but it had the wrong effect. He would usually go and make an egg and bacon sandwich.

I understand the feeling though, of watching those around you stuff their faces without a second thought as to the suffering behind it, and you want to scream out what a horrible, selfish person they are. But, that won't do anything except make you look like a crazy person and scare them away from veg*nism.

A non-veg*n meetup group I belonged to had a monthly meeting, as well as other events. At one of the meetings a girl who had been a member for years had just become a vegan. I was thrilled and spent some time talking to her. After the meeting there were snacks, mostly dessert type items and the only thing vegan was the fruit. She spent most of the time talking about factory farming and telling everyone how cruel they were to be eating things with egg and dairy in them. Needless to say, everyone avoided her after that, so she stopping going to the meetings. Being pushy just doesn't work.

 

[Clueless Git]

Militant vegans are like those dumb-*** make-you-suffer-agets that used to chain themselves to railings and stuff.

"Oh women's right this .. and "womens rights that .." getting right in blokes faces with all that "women aren't property" and "women are people too" stuff.

Probably if women had just stayed respectfully quiet for another millenia or so blokes would have given them the vote by now. Jobs even. Shoes of their own.

And don't get me started on those militant anti-slaving wallahs. If they'd just have stayed nice and quiet (peacefully picked their own cotton or something) well ... who knows ... we might even have had a black president of somewhere or another by now.

 

[Second Summer]

Veg*ns represent about 3-5% of the U.S. population**. It’s been this way for decades, with no meaningful growth. We’re in a constant state of attrition. Why is that? Certainly much of of the general public is aware of veg*nism more than ever before, but the overall numbers remain flat.

According to this article (quite interesting actually): Most Vegetarians & Vegans End Up Eating Meat Again

According to a large study of American dietary habits, 84% of vegetarians and vegans eventually go back to their carnivorous ways.

More than half of former vegetarians/vegans gave up the diet within their first year, and one-third went back to meat within three months.

Many people said that they didn't like how it made them stick out from the crowd, and that they didn't have supportive interactions with fellow vegans or vegetarians. In other words, they didn't feel enough a part of a community.

This is why we need communities such as VV! (Meeting up with fellow veg*ns in the real world is great too, of course.)

Here’s my take on the anemic growth. When extremist recruiting tactics are used, all you end up doing is recruiting other extremist…which further alienates the general public that might otherwise be willing to consider veg*nism.

I think you may have a point there.

 

[Moll Flanders]

84%. That seems very high.

It seems to me that in the UK vegetarianism and even veganism is more mainstream than in the US. I didn't find it that difficult to be vegetarian back in the early 90s and it's much easier now. It seems like the choices for vegans are improving all the time too.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I find, on forums anyway, that if you are calm and don't indulge in hyperbole, then people are more inclined to listen to you and take you seriously. Omnies will even come to your rescue if someone gets annoyed with you, for example a woman was getting a bit belligerent about the use of the word 'cheese', and then when I mentioned vegan pizzas she claimed that they couldn't be called pizzas if they didn't have dairy cheese on them, and someone came to the defence of the idea of vegan pizzas, citing links that showed that the first pizzas didn't even have cheese on them(I think they originated in Greece).
The belligerent woman, is a pedant about words, and is fairly knowledgeable about them, so she shut up about that afterwards.

 

[shyvas]

I find, on forums anyway, that if you are calm and don't indulge in hyperbole, then people are more inclined to listen to you and take you seriously. Omnies will even come to your rescue if someone gets annoyed with you, for example a woman was getting a bit belligerent about the use of the word 'cheese', and then when I mentioned vegan pizzas she claimed that they couldn't be called pizzas if they didn't have dairy cheese on them, and someone came to the defence of the idea of vegan pizzas, citing links that showed that the first pizzas didn't even have cheese on them(I think they originated in Greece).
The belligerent woman, is a pedant about words, and is fairly knowledgeable about them, so she shut up about that afterwards.

''The official definition of pizza then: a delicious meal made of flatbread, sauce, and toppings reflective of both its southern Italian origins, and the local culture that’s adopted it. When combined these elements save lives and create immeasurable happiness.''

The definition of pizza | Jam and Idleness

 

[Mischief]

Militant vegans are like those dumb-*** make-you-suffer-agets that used to chain themselves to railings and stuff.

"Oh women's right this .. and "womens rights that .." getting right in blokes faces with all that "women aren't property" and "women are people too" stuff.

Probably if women had just stayed respectfully quiet for another millenia or so blokes would have given them the vote by now. Jobs even. Shoes of their own.

And don't get me started on those militant anti-slaving wallahs. If they'd just have stayed nice and quiet (peacefully picked their own cotton or something) well ... who knows ... we might even have had a black president of somewhere or another by now.

I gather you have a stellar record of winning friends and influencing people with your ways.

 

[Dedalus]

This thread is similar to this one in that in each there are different, albeit astute perspectives on how best to approach what we are all fighting for. I find that while there are very convincing arguments towards maintaning a hard-line approach - it just doesn't translate towards winning people over - and in fact may result in turning people away. That being said - I don't blame or condemn individuals (I try not to anyway) for taking that stand. I think having that amount of passion is admirable, cause you know what? It is a position that is only popular within that circle - others are going to dislike them for having that stance. I know and respect people on both sides.

So in answer to the OP's question: like it or not 'militant' vegans exist as a part of the community. Just as vegetarians do and newer vegans who clearly have a lack of understanding of what it really means to be vegan, both groups which can be extremely irritating at times. But I think it is a mistake to ostracize any of them. Easier in theory than in practice admittedly.

I believe ultimately, if a person has it within them (and many simply do not) to reject the blissfull ignorance of animal suffering that we have all been brainwashed with - that they will eventually come to a point somewhere on their journey in life where it will all make sense, and they will wake up and go vegan. But it is a choice that that individual will make. Some may find that their exposure to militant vegan approach helped them to make that choice. Some may find that a gentle nudge in the right direction helped them see the light. Whatever the case, there is no wrong way to get to the right way.

 

[Moll Flanders]

One thing that bothers me (and bothered me a lot on VB) was people putting down people who struggle with being vegetarian or vegan. I remember also on Vegan Forum there was someone who said she was going to go back to being a vegetarian and she said that some vegans had sent her nasty private messages. I find that very obnoxious. I don't find that there is that mean spirited attitude on VV which I'm glad about.

I would rather people just tried again until they got it right. I don't understand why some people seem to want to push people away from a vegan lifestyle. It's obviously going to be harder for some people because of their home life (living with omni teenagers for example) or their financial situation or working life.

 

[Clueless Git]

I would rather people just tried again until they got it right.

I can't help noticing a greater sense of urgency when the victims of abuse (kids, women, minorities, etc) fall further into the category of "victims I actualy give a sh*t about" ...

It's a hypocrisy as there is no reason (outside the sphere of victim ranking) why Kentucky Fried Black Lesbian Baby should be any easier/harder than bacon to give up.

 

[Moll Flanders]

I can't help noticing a greater sense of urgency when the victims of abuse (kids, women, minorities, etc) fall further into the category of "victims I actualy give a sh*t about" ...

It's a hypocrisy as there is no reason (outside the sphere of victim ranking) why Kentucky Fried Black Lesbian Baby should be any easier/harder than bacon to give up.

Hmm, it's a head-scratcher alright. Maybe it's because killing and eating a human baby would actually be a crime where as killing and eating animals is a perfectly legal lifestyle choice.

I don't understand why some vegans want to keep their elite status so much that they actively discourage people to try it. I think with some vegans they have so little personality besides being vegan that it threatens their identity.

 

[Clueless Git]

Maybe it's because killing and eating a human baby would actually be a crime where as killing and eating animals is a perfectly legal lifestyle choice.

No victim ranking there.

 

[Moll Flanders]

According to PETA vegans save nearly 200 animal lives a year, Vegans Save 198 Animals a Year | PETA's Blog | PETA why would any vegan want to prevent another person from trying veganism or even vegetarianism? It's illogical. Even omni people trying Meatless Mondays should make an impact on the amount of animals killed for food.

No victim ranking there.

I was just explaining the law in the UK to you.

 

[Joe]

Militant vegans are like those dumb-*** make-you-suffer-agets that used to chain themselves to railings and stuff.

"Oh women's right this .. and "womens rights that .." getting right in blokes faces with all that "women aren't property" and "women are people too" stuff.

Probably if women had just stayed respectfully quiet for another millenia or so blokes would have given them the vote by now. Jobs even. Shoes of their own.

CG's comments inspired me to read the Wikipedia article on Emmeline Pankhurst, militant suffragette.

Emmeline Pankhurst - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During the twentieth century Emmeline Pankhurst's value to the movement for women's suffrage was debated passionately, and no consensus was achieved. Her daughters Sylvia and Christabel weighed in with books, scornful and laudatory respectively, about their time in the struggle. ... continued the polarised discussion; detached and objective assessment has rarely been a part of Pankhurst scholarship.[2]

Recent biographies show that historians differ about whether Emmeline Pankhurst's militancy helped or hurt the movement;[2][3] however, there is general agreement that the WSPU raised public awareness of the movement in ways that proved essential.

There seems to be no consensus about whether militancy "works."