Is gender transition therapy acceptable?

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twitterbook

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Hormone replacement therapy (HRT) can involve substances derived from animals. And all options are surely tested on animals. And operations are surely tested on animals. Gender transition is not medically necessary, so it doesn't seem to me it could possibly be justified under vegan terms. What do you think?
 
Vegans can't say they are in favour of animal products or use, but they are probably mostly left wing and won't take any position that has any even slight whiff of transphobia so it kinds of makes this hard for them to respond to this.

It might work better if you state whether you are a vegan yourself or supportive of veganism generally? I think people will more likely engage with the topic if they see you are coming to the vegan forum as a vegan or person transitioning to veganism. And understand that you are supportive of the broad goals of veganism. First posts like this will make people wonder, even if unjustified in your case, just because in the past we had several people coming along with the type of posts where it isn't clear
---firstly what the intention is behind it
and
---secondly whether the benefit to the forum of interesting intellectual debate like this outweighs the disruption and risk of argument in potentially awkward cases and turning off new posters and creating the wrong environment for a happy forum.

Some vegans sometimes tend towards an absolutism in their beliefs, and are reluctant to want to address this kind of question or admit that veganism should be more balanced against other concerns in a way that might mean in some occasional cases the better solution involves a small amount of animal suffering. But not all think like that.

Personally I suspect that the animal suffering caused by animal products and testing (assuming there is any) is probably minimal compared to the suffering of a trans person that really wanted to go ahead with gender transition and might be denied. Therefore the decision whether to go ahead should be made mostly based on the person's happiness and understanding of their identity, with veganism being a minor or zero part of that decision. Once the decision to go ahead is made, it may be appropriate to consider veganism I think in terms of which of various different treatments to get, but only as one factor in the decision, and only if the person who is transitioning wants to. And they should feel no guilt about choosing not to even bother considering it, even if they are an outspoken hardcore vegan, given the other stresses and difficulties that they likely face at this time - or indeed at any time.

Your comment "gender transition is not medically necessary" seems correct from the point of view of physical health but if we consider mental health, and consider that mental health is often underrated and also connected to physical health, some people with gender dysphoria do feel that a transition is necessary; it is necessary to their core identity and happiness.
 
Personally I suspect that the animal suffering caused by animal products and testing (assuming there is any) is probably minimal compared to the suffering of a trans person that really wanted to go ahead with gender transition and might be denied. Therefore the decision whether to go ahead should be made mostly based on the person's happiness and understanding of their identity, with veganism being a minor or zero part of that decision. Once the decision to go ahead is made, it may be appropriate to consider veganism I think in terms of which of various different treatments to get, but only as one factor in the decision, and only if the person who is transitioning wants to. And they should feel no guilt about choosing not to even bother considering it, even if they are an outspoken hardcore vegan, given the other stresses and difficulties that they likely face at this time - or indeed at any time.
^THIS^

The foundations of all medicine, of pretty much everything--every item we touch (like the keyboard you're using), more than likely has been affected by the use of animals in testing or manufacturing processes or the item themselves. We cannot avoid everything. We can only go forward.
The same is true of the use of people against their will as it of animals.

As for "not medically necessary", that can be compared to most every operation someone can find ways to live without, how about having children? Comparatively I can't think of much else people do that would be have such impact--why pick on gender identity?

We can't change the past, we can change the future. If we were to never touch things that have been formulated by animal exploitation literally everything would cease to exist and that stance would be to kill off the human race. We can't even agree on human reparations for those that had been impacted by the slave trade here in America! or any human inequities!

As a vegan, I do judge according to peoples personal needs. I don't expect a person with a family, living pay to pay, to avoid as much as I would someone with higher income and more resources. I expect the same in all areas
 
Hormone replacement therapy (HRT) can involve substances derived from animals. And all options are surely tested on animals. And operations are surely tested on animals. Gender transition is not medically necessary, so it doesn't seem to me it could possibly be justified under vegan terms. What do you think?
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According to the University of Rochester Medical Center, United States:

"Bioidentical hormones are produced in the laboratory from plants (wild yams, cactus, or soy), but the structures and functions of these hormones are identical to that of the hormones made by the body. While wild yams had been used since the 18th century to treat menstrual cramps, in the 1950s scientists identified the phytoestrogen, diosgenin, in the plant roots, which could be chemically converted to such hormones as progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, DHEA, and cortisol.

The bioidentical hormone story, therefore, starts in the laboratory where the phytoestrogens are extracted from plants."


LInk: Clarifying The Terms
 
I'm quite curious why @twitterbook posted this example?
There are so many other procedures that could be questioned
How about the newly approved pig heart?
 
How about the newly approved pig heart?
The podcast RadioLab just did a thing on pig kidneys. they interviewed the woman who had that meat allergy from the Lone Star Tick. It seems like she has become vegan in the meantime and isn't so thrilled about pigs being raised for organ transplants.

One point made during the show is that killing an animal to save a person's life is way more ethically justifiable than killing an animal because you like they way they taste.

I guess it sort of depends on where you put gender transition on the medically necessary spectrum. Like many things in the vegan/non vegan discussion it's a personal decision.
 
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Interesting question, are there alternatives to using animal pharmaceuticals?.
However there are tons of products most humans who are vegan do not realize are not vegan.
Even healthy looking or organic maple syrup can contain animal fat and not say so on the label.
There has been a lot of stress around for two years because of the immense fear created around the
manipulated covid "flu". Billions of humans have made the choice to get an untested medical toxic liquid
injected into them, I call it the jab. Some have chosen to get two, as well as "boosters". The
ingredients in the jabs are not there to promote health. Doctors have not studied the ingredients or
the multiple side effects of them which have included seizures, paralysis, immune disorders, severe heart problems,
clotting, and death. The ingredients include graphene oxide (metallic), aluminum (linked to seizures, alzheimers,
and brain damage), formaldehyde, dna from animals such as dogs, pigs, chickens, horses, cows, and, dna
from aborted human fetuses. You need to understand that the pharmaceutical companies that make the jabs
are IMMUNE FROM PROSECUTION from any side effects or death. The Doctors who give the jabs are also immune
from prosecution for any side effects or deaths. Does this fact make you confident in the safety of the jabs?.
Detox using zinc, D3. wheatgrass juice, NAC, quercetin, and yes, ivermectin. Look up Dr. Sherry Tenpenny, (David
Wolfe (vegan), Dr. Mercola, and the frontline doctors).
 
Vegans can't say they are in favour......
First, sorry for the late reply. I didn't check back right away because it didn't look like there were frequent posts on this forum, and also I'd asked this question elsewhere recently and gotten such backlash I think I was afraid of seeing responses.

Anyway, thanks for your reply. It's very insightful.

I intentionally didn't reveal anything about myself because that would color the question, and then I would get responses based on me, rather than objective answers to the question. But also I do expect, from experience, that most people will read intent into it anyway, and responses will still be about me. That didn't happen this time, surprisingly, but that's usually how it goes. A question of ethics should stand on its own. If responses are based on who asked the question, that's not philosophy. So I tried my best to ask the question as plainly as possible.

I can understand people not wanting to disrupt the positive vibe of the forum by engaging the question. I respect that, but I'm a little disappointed because it is a question of vegan moral philosophy, and this is the "Philosophy" forum. To me, philosophy is not always a happy pursuit. In fact, the ethical topics that make us uncomfortable are possibly the ones we most need to discuss, because that's where people are averting their gaze and there is probably a lot to be learned there about the principles involved.

Also, reading your post does make me realize that people may think I'm trolling. I get that. I'm not, though. I'm just trying to learn what people think.

Thanks for your opinion on it. I see your point about which suffering is greater. I have to ask myself though to what extent would I subject another being to suffering to lessen my own greater suffering? How large may the former be and how small the latter before I say no it's not worth it? I don't know. Where to draw the line is probably where any question of ethics ultimately leads.

When I said it's "not medically necessary" I meant to say "it seems" not necessary. I meant to leave the door open that one may deem it necessary, as you suggested.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
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According to the University of Rochester Medical Center, United States:

"Bioidentical hormones are produced in the laboratory from plants (wild yams, cactus, or soy), but the structures and functions of these hormones are identical to that of the hormones made by the body. While wild yams had been used since the 18th century to treat menstrual cramps, in the 1950s scientists identified the phytoestrogen, diosgenin, in the plant roots, which could be chemically converted to such hormones as progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, DHEA, and cortisol.

The bioidentical hormone story, therefore, starts in the laboratory where the phytoestrogens are extracted from plants."


LInk: Clarifying The Terms
Thanks for the info, interesting to hear. I did see Peta's page on Premarin, which they condemn, because of the cruelty to horses, but I don't know how much that stuff is used vs what you're talking about. I did write them recently asking for their take on my question, but they haven't responded. Thanks for the reply!
 
Thanks for your opinion on it. I see your point about which suffering is greater. I have to ask myself though to what extent would I subject another being to suffering to lessen my own greater suffering? How large may the former be and how small the latter before I say no it's not worth it? I don't know. Where to draw the line is probably where any question of ethics ultimately leads.
There is a forum called the philosophical vegan forum where they are particularly open to intellectual discussion without emotional reaction. However, it can be pretty dead. You might get no replies at all.

The way I think about it is that if you are going to suffer pain for 10 minutes but you could stop that pain by making someone else suffer pain (of a similar intensity) for 5 minutes, that feels wrong to me, even though the total suffering is decreased by your action.

But if you were going to suffer pain for 10 hours and you could stop it by making an innocent person (or animal) suffer for 5 minutes, you should do it.

I can't really justify this with a clever argument, but that's what intuitively feels right.

If the case is that you yourself or someone you know is considering transitioning, I wouldn't as I say really factor this into the decision.

Once a medicine has been tested on 5 animals it can then probably be copied a thousand or a million times over without further testing, so the amount of suffering per unit medicine is probably small, unlike meat which is ongoing suffering every time.

If a medicine has animal ingredients in it then again hopefully the amount is small. Medicines are usually a few millilitres and so their actual amount of animal product ought to be quite small compared to things like meat, leather etc. And there might perhaps be some relation between the amount of product and the amount of suffering, so again the amount of suffering might be small?
 
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The way I think about it is that if you are going to suffer pain for 10 minutes but you could stop that pain by making someone else suffer pain (of a similar intensity) for 5 minutes, that feels wrong to me, even though the total suffering is decreased by your action.

But if you were going to suffer pain for 10 hours and you could stop it by making an innocent person (or animal) suffer for 5 minutes, you should do it.
I would say your scenario there certainly sounds reasonable, as a general rule.

The problem then is not really knowing the extent of suffering that went into something like a medicine. Maybe it could be that a medicine is only tested on five animals, but I tend to suspect it is far more. A proper scientific study of a substance that will be going into people's bodies needs a larger group of subjects than that, I would think, both for regulatory approval and also as legal protection in case of lawsuits. But I could be wrong.

Perhaps it is only a tiny amount that ends up in one person's medicine. I wonder though in particular how much suffering does on individual subject endure, because that's what really gets me. But there's no way to know, so I just hope you're right.

I really appreciate your input on all this.

And thanks for the info on the other forum, I just took a peak at it, I might give it a try.
 
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If men can do everything women can do, and women can do everything men can do, why do people want to change their gender?

What is the appeal? Do people really want to endure hormone treatments or genital mutilation?

 
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If men can do everything women can do, and women can do everything men can do, why do people want to change their gender?

What is the appeal? Do people really want to endure hormone treatments or genital mutilation?

.
There are plenty of textbooks about transgender people. You can find good answers there.

Your use of the term "genital mutilation", specifically applied to gender reassignment surgery, pretty much reveals your anti-transgender attitude. Don't play games by claiming that you're just curious about the topic. Go troll somewhere else.
 
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There are plenty of textbooks about transgender people. You can find good answers there.

Your use of the term "genital mutilation", specifically applied to gender reassignment surgery, pretty much reveals your anti-transgender attitude. Don't play games by claiming that you're just curious about the topic. Go troll somewhere else.
You can use an innocuous phrase like “gender reassignment surgery”, but genitals are still being cut up or cut off.

I’m not playing games I just don’t understand why anyone would subject themselves to these totally unnecessary and gruesome procedures.

I’m not a fan of transgender activists who seem bent on harming women’s sports.


Women are being treated unfairly and denied opportunities. Do you think women should lose scholarships?
 
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If men can do everything women can do, and women can do everything men can do, why do people want to change their gender?

What is the appeal? Do people really want to endure hormone treatments or genital mutilation?

You can use an innocuous phrase like “gender reassignment surgery”, but genitals are still being cut up or cut off.

I’m not playing games I just don’t understand why anyone would subject themselves to these totally unnecessary and gruesome procedures.

I’m not a fan of transgender activists who seem bent on harming women’s sports.


Women are being treated unfairly and denied opportunities. Do you think women should lose scholarships?
Don't know what planet you're on where sexual identity isn't a thing, but it is everywhere on this earth
Maybe you're not trolling, but you're certainly expressing your ignorance. That you felt compelled to argue makes trolling a reasonable assumption.
...and then you even reverse your first statement of equality 🙄

As to women being denied opportunities why look any farther than the oppression they already face, which has nothing to do with transgender persons.
Cisgendered woman have been denied their rights forever, and to this day, including sports participation

There are soooo many procedures to pick on for involving the use of animals to focus on. I find it reprehensible for this to be left a transphobic hate thread
 
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If men can do everything women can do, and women can do everything men can do, why do people want to change their gender?
This is not how many trans people feel about it, at least not some of the ones whose accounts I've read and listened to. They feel that they are a man trapped in a women's body (or vice versa) and so they feel that they want their body to match their mental identity.

Some of them feel uncomfortable in their clothes, or even their body.

So you could dispute the word "change" that you use.

Note: don't have any relevant personal experience or knowledge. This is just based on a book I read and some articles, including reading the perspectives of trans people.
 
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MOD POST
I've locked this thread. I should probably have locked it sooner.

I feel like the OP lacked evidence for the assertion about the treatments causing animal suffering. @David3 's post (#6) appears to say the treatments are plant-based, and no-one has attempted to refute this. The thread then went off-topic, with some posts seemingly critical of gender reassignment and transgender people. That sort of discussion has nothing to do with veganism. Also, transgender people are welcome here. Haters are not.
 
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