What's your take on insects?

chickenmammalove

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I'm just wondering how others approach insects. Obviously, vegans don't eat them or support silk or bee products, but there are other situations which, to me, are less straight forward.

If you have harmful insects in your home (cockroaches, for instance) or an insect infestation, what do you do? Especially for insects who tend to come in a group? Do you kill them? Release them? Set traps or poison? Exterminate them? Obviously, the best thing to do is to create an inhospitable environment by not leaving food or water out, but if that's not enough, what do you do?

How about insects who like to bite, such as mosquitoes? Do you kill them? Swat them away? Passively allow them to bite you? Again, if this is still an issue after spraying insect repellent on yourself?

When you're referring to an insect or other bug, do you say s/he or it? Do you believe bugs are sentient enough to be called who/s/he? Do you think of bugs as sentient? Is there evidence that they feel pain, fear, curiosity, joy, etc?

I'm genuinely curious about all of this and would love to know what you think.
 
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Those are good questions. Instead of worrying about the answers I pretty much fall back on the definition of veganism. It doesn't prohibit the killing of animals. Just their exploitation. So farming insects for food is not vegan. but there is no prohibition against killing insects (or mice) that are in your house.

Now personally, I try to avoid killing all animals. but that is just how I am. But my grocer wages a war on all kinds of vermin. So does my landlord. I don't judge them. Even buying organic does not eliminate incidental or unavoidable deaths of insects (and even animals) during the cultivation and harvesting of crops.

IMHO, I don't believe insects are sentient. but I don't think sentience is the right measuring stick for this. A bee's brain is smaller than the point of a pencil but they have some amazing abilities. I don't think lobster even have brains, but one species is able to navigate a migration of thousands of miles. (while if I don't see a road sign I can get lost 5 miles from my house).

There are vegans who think eating honey is ok. They call themselves Beegans. In one really good article I read about them they made some very strong points. (if you would like to read it let me know, I think I can find it). however the other side of the argument is if we don't use the biological definition of an animal to keep things off our plate, then where do we re-draw the line. If Bees are ok, what about bivalves. Or lobsters? I'm not a big fan of absolutes but I dislike the slippery slope even more. ( I also have articles defending lobsters and bivalves - if you're interested).
 
I don't believe in killing bugs, except when they come in my home. I tend to deal with spiders by just taking down their webs. Ants will be dealt with organically, and by making sure that they can't get to any of my food. And with most bugs, cleanliness will help to keep them out.

I've never had the really bad ones like cockroaches, bedbugs, or termites. But if they did show up; they would be met with lethal force.
 
I suffer from mild entomophobia, so I have to go to great lengths to have compassion towards those opportunistic little fellas. Sometimes I fail terribly.
Right now, I have divided them into categories: harmful insects that spread diseases, insects that are minor inconvenience and beneficial insects.

Last Summer and Autumn I had to work directly below a wasps nest. There was no way to relocate them and I had to get my work done somehow. I truly wanted to eliminate them, but instead I started learning about them. They get very active during Autumn because they try to keep their children alive. Wasps are beneficial. They help with pollination and eat pests.
Henry David Thoreau had a bees nest inside his cabin. He lived with them in peace. He wrote about this in his book. I think it's called Walden in English, but I'm not sure. It's one of the best books ever written.

When I started to sleep on the floor I began to notice that there is a whole interesting ecosystem inside my apartment walls and at night the critters crawl out of their holes. Some of them looked very scary, but fortunately in my country there aren't much poisonous insects. Lately, I haven't seen much bugs aside from larva of attagenus woodroffei. At first, I took one of them outside. But felt terrible afterwards. That larvae met their demise in the freezing cold and all because I thought that the bug was disgusting and scary. After that I have just let them be. There isn't that many that I have noticed anyway. Maybe they eat my woollen socks or something, but I try my best not to leave my things directly on the floor when that's possible. I have my couch cushions on the floor because I sit on them and my tatami and futon, but otherwise I keep everything neatly off the floor level.

I think that harmful bugs like cockroaches, ticks and fleas should be dealt with quickly because they spread diseases. Preventive actions would be best, but sometimes they infest a place or a person no matter what. But this is difficult and I don't know what my opinion is, to be honest. And I don't know what would be the best action to take.

After reading about bedbugs and understanding that they don't pose a real threat, I don't know what to think about them. They can make a mess and they are very opportunistic, spreading quickly all over the building, including neighbours apartments. But they don't spread diseases, they are minor inconvenience compared to fleas. Mosquitoes are also a mild inconvenience here where I live, they haven't yet started to spread diseases, but when they infest your home they can drive you crazy. With mosquitoes and bedbugs prevention is the key. I don't think killing them is the right thing to do, but sometimes there doesn't seem to be much better options.

And then there are the bugs that infest plants. Up until now, I have mostly managed with not killing them. Years ago, I was pressured into killing ants with boiling water at a garden. But that experience sealed my determination not to kill insects and I have been trying my best to keep at it even if people think that I'm crazy and stupid.
If the soil and ecosystem is healthy, the plants are healthy and then the "pests" (humans are the worst pests there is) can't do much damage. I do think that keeping goose and chickens is a good way to deal with slugs, even when that means that the sugs are going to die. At least this would be much better for the nature than using pesticide.

Those who have taken refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha have to refrain from killing, but how literally this should be taken is up to individual and I haven't yet made up my mind. I always try my best not no kill anything, but will I succeed? And I can't really tell other people how to live their lives.
The truth is that all living beings want to live and I should always stop myself from killing them. But even using the goose and chickens at the garden is indirectly killing slugs. Perhaps I'm trying to find a middle ground with this and find a solution with least amount of harm to nature and still preserve myself and fellow human beings?

But clearly I haven't made up my mind and find this subject very tricky and uncomfortable, but also interesting. No, killing isn't the right thing to do, ever. But... Yeah, I could go on and on forever. I still have to think about this. But as a rule, I would refrain from killing insects.
 
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I see no reason to assume that insects are not sentient, given that we don't know what causes sentience and given that they respond to stimuli in much the same way other creatures do. It seems arbitrary to make a distinction. Prevention is better than cure so cleanliness is a must, but if anything comes into our flat, I usually take it outside and let it go. In the case of an infestation though, as painful as I would find it, I would do whatever it takes to clean up. We should remind ourselves that nature isn't perfect and that creatures suffer and die for all sorts of reasons and that sometimes it is unavoidable. I think the rule of thumb is, if there is a better way, take it!
 
Mosquitoes are also a mild inconvenience here where I live, they haven't yet started to spread diseases, but when they infest your home they can drive you crazy.
This is a funny way to put it so I want to rephrase this:
Mosquitoes doesn't have any magical powers to make you crazy. You began to lose sleep because of how you react to their presence in your living quarters.
Nature does what it does. It's neither good or bad. It's about how you perceive it.

but there is no prohibition against killing insects (or mice) that are in your house.
About mice, this reminded me of Mark Boyle and his dilemma with a pesky little mice that decided to live with him in his campervan. Instead of killing the mice, he let it live with him. It was only one mice, if there would have been more, maybe he wouldn't have been so kind? But anyways, sometimes people are more like bonobos than chimpanzees (chimps hoard bananas whereas bonobos share their bananas). Walt Disney also shared some of his food with a mice, even though he was dirt poor and could only barely sustain himself.
 
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Just got this in my email today. And I thought of this thread.
Not sure if this helps to answer any questions but it does help recalibrate some of our ideas

Hey readers,

A year ago, I fell in love with a duck.

Molly the Mallard, as I dubbed her, decided to nest in a flowerbed on the sidewalk right outside the Vox office. She looked so vulnerable, laying eggs in the middle of the bustling city, that I couldn’t help getting emotionally invested. When the eggs hatched, would she manage to get her ducklings to water? How?

Soon, I found myself learning all about birds: how some use the sun and stars to navigate while others sense the Earth’s magnetic field; how individual birds — far from being driven by mere instinct — can make autonomous choices to split off from their migrating flock; how crows solve complex puzzles; and more.

I was wowed by avian intelligence. Books like Jennifer Ackerman’s The Genius of Birds urged me on in this direction. And the more impressed I grew with birds’ smarts, the more my empathy for them increased.

That’s pretty common. As a recent survey showed, people are more likely to want to help an animal when they believe that animal to be intelligent. It’s no accident that animal rights groups like the Nonhuman Rights Project try to win legal status for apes, elephants, dolphins, and whales by focusing on their intelligence.

But the more I think about it, the more it strikes me that intelligence is a terrible yardstick for determining how much care an animal deserves.

Why intelligence is a problematic criterion for moral value

Human beings are always underestimating the cognitive complexity of other species. The more scientific research we do, the more we learn that chickens, pigs, and other animals are smarter than we’d thought.

Part of the problem is that we suffer from an anthropocentric bias: We tend to think something counts as intelligence only when it looks like our (human) intelligence.

“There’s a risk that if we talk in terms of ‘these animals are really smart and therefore we should protect them,’ then we risk reinforcing the idea that you need a certain kind of intelligence in order to be worthy of protection,” Jeff Sebo, a professor of environmental studies and philosophy at New York University, told me. “That might work well for some animals but less well for animals who are intelligent in different ways that we might not notice or appreciate.”

Instead, some say sentience –– the ability to have conscious experiences like pleasure and pain –– might be a better yardstick. Many philosophers (most famously, Peter Singer) argue that sentience is what confers moral status, and this view is at the center of today’s animal welfare movement.

It makes some intuitive sense. If you can’t feel pleasure or pain, then it doesn’t matter to you what happens to you. So, if you’re a rock, I should be able to kick you down the street for fun without feeling bad. But if you’re a mouse, I have a moral obligation not to do that because being kicked will feel really bad to you.

There’s a problem, though. Just like with intelligence, humans constantly underestimate the sentience of other species. For example, many people think of fish as emotionally vacant, though recent studies challenge that view.

Sebo, who believes that sentience is the criterion for moral worth, nevertheless told me, “I am a little bit humble here because I recognize that sentience is the next on a list of features that we share with other animals.”

Here’s what that means. Historically, societies started by thinking that being a male human is what matters, and then that being a human is what matters, and then that being an intelligent animal is what matters, and now that being sentient is what matters. So, Sebo said, “In light of that history, we should be a little skeptical of our current impression that we happen to now be fully morally enlightened and are including everybody we should be including.”

We should also ask: If you think sentience confers moral worth, exactly how much sentience is required to make the cut? And how do you measure it? Do you start counting the number of neurons in each animal and use that as a proxy? Is that a bad proxy?

These are devilishly hard questions, which some researchers are trying hardto answer. But there’s an altogether different approach we can take.

What if anything that’s alive has moral worth?

In environmental ethics, some thinkers argue for biocentrism, the view that anything that’s alive (or that supports living things) has moral worth. Think plants and ecosystems.

Chris Cuomo, a philosopher at the University of Georgia, believes this is a much better view than the sentientist perspective. She told me a narrow focus on sentience “replicates a neoliberal tendency to focus our moral concern only on individual suffering and not on systems of oppression or systems of harm,” like environmental degradation. “It really leaves a lot out.”

By contrast, biocentrists are likely to concern themselves with climate change and bad environmental practices that make pandemics more likely, in addition to animal welfare.

It’s worth noting that contemporary environmentalists definitely didn’t invent the idea of biocentrism. Certain peoples, like the Jains in India, have lived by this view for millennia.

It’s also worth noting that these different criteria — life, sentience, intelligence — are not necessarily mutually exclusive. We can have a moral pluralismwhere we recognize that a being may be valuable in itself and as part of a larger ecosystem.

—Sigal Samuel, @SigalSamuel
 
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cockroaches, mosquitos, ants, flies, wasps, etc... get no mercy from me. :(
I won't mess with the ants outside, but if they're inside and raiding the cabinets.. gotta protect my food.
I was reaching for some taco shells once, and I felt ants biting me! There were so many, eating the taco shells. So whenever we get those hard shells, I store them in ziploc bags. No ants allowed.
 
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I was thinking about the same topic a while ago. I remember how just a few months before I went vegan there was a bedbug infestation, we had them exterminated by a professional in the end, but then I was thinking if it's really the right thing to do? Are there perhaps less painful methods? At the same time those bedbugs really only live to drink our blood and reproduce, so do they deserve any better treatment from us when they are the ones causing pain to us in the first place? If I somehow ended up with an infestation again I probably wouldn't feel too bad about exterminating them, but I still think about this topic from time to time.
 
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I wouldn't think so, they need to feed on blood.
So if you got rid of them without killing they'd maybe re infest, infest someone else, or die off.
No one wants bed bugs, they are expensive to get rid off.
Ever since my best friend got bed bugs she stopped letting me stay over for the weekends. It was after our Florida trip.
 
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At the same time those bedbugs really only live to drink our blood and reproduce, so do they deserve any better treatment from us when they are the ones causing pain to us in the first place?
I'm not sure that "deserve" is the right criteria. We don't "deserve" to live because we haven't earned the right to live, we were just lucky, but we consider it right to show compassion where possible to each other simply because we are aware of feelings and the ability to suffer. I agree with you that killing is sometimes necessary and I would have done the same with the bed bugs but it should never be something we are blase about or do in anger or malice. The bedbugs are not being malicious, they are just trying to survive.
 
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I'm not sure that "deserve" is the right criteria. We don't "deserve" to live because we haven't earned the right to live, we were just lucky, but we consider it right to show compassion where possible to each other simply because we are aware of feelings and the ability to suffer. I agree with you that killing is sometimes necessary and I would have done the same with the bed bugs but it should never be something we are blase about or do in anger or malice. The bedbugs are not being malicious, they are just trying to survive.
You are right about that. Bedbugs sucking our blood could be compared to humans stealing milk from animals and using animals for the good of humans in other ways. We have the intelligence and the option to choose the way of life that does not cause so much harm to other animals and living things, while bedbugs are just simple animals that don't think much and can't choose a different way of life. I guess this is just one of the many sad things about nature...
I just hope I won't have to deal with an infestation again, having to exterminate those bugs would still leave a small part of me feeling wrong about it.
 
Of course the best offense is a good defense!
I've always shopped thrift stores, and picked up non upholstered furnishings from tree lawns, knowing to do a thorough search for signs of bugs, and take clothes directly to the washer/dryer before bringing up into the house. My grandmother always salvaged what she could, so I grew up knowing this.
One day years back I bought some tops from a garage sale and didn't think, put them right on my bed and left the room. The next day I was itching so fiercely I bruised my skin. The next couple days my cats pointed out the teeny black spots - the bed bugs. I immediately called an exterminator. He only needed to spray my room.
If I had waited, those bugs would have multiplied like mad, leaving me in pain. I would have had no choice but to end up killing them, and would have had far far more to kill. Just those 2-3, maybe 4 days I had many many black spots, and only saw 2 larger ones.
My point is we all need to be proactive. Keep the bugs out of our homes as naturally as we can, but if push comes to shove, taking the steps to eradicate the ones that would invade can prevent the deaths of thousands more
I do feel fortunate to live in Ohio where we really don't have deadly bugs or animals to worry about. I sprinkle bay leaves in cabinets, spray mint around doors.
I do have some spindly spiders that come in, and they're always welcome! A few times I'll see centipedes in the basement.
 
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When I first move in this apartment, I had pretty much nothing and I wasn't aware that my old bed and mattress still existed. I got one mattress from my brother. I don't know where exactly he had found it, but I took it and was grateful. Up until I started having rashes on my wrists. I suppose that was caused by bedbugs. Fortunately, they didn't spread all over my apartment, they seemed to just infest the mattress and the problem was dealt with when I got rid of their main fortress. But now I know that you shouldn't just throw it away, because the problem could easily be spread if for example, your neighbours find the mattress or other furniture from the trash and take those items into their apartment.
I have read that Japanese tatami mats are often homes for fleas that are called dani and that's why Japanese people keep their houses so clean and vacuum almost every day.
 
I have a growing suspicion that the larva of attagenus woodroffei are eating my blanket. They have inhabited it and that's why I haven't seen them around lately.

My take on this is that I'll move to Antarctica to live in an underwater tank. But I don't know if that would help either.
The Earth is full of insects. They were here before us humans and they'll be here after we are gone.
 
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I don’t particularly like them but I try not to harm them unnecessarily. I catch and release any that get into my home when possible. The ones outside I leave alone.
 
I've been fascinated by insects since I was a child, even though I didn't have a "collection" of killed and mounted insects. I confess I did like to catch them with a net, look at them, and let them go right where I found them. I wasn't thinking about how this might have stressed them, or conceivably could have injured them if they had been struck by the metal hoop/rim instead of caught in the netting.

Nowadays, I'm mpre familiar with biology and natural history. Supposedly... supposedly... insects, as well as other invertebrates and neurologically-simpler vertebrates, can't feel pain (or pleasure)- in fact, aren't really aware of anything... because they don't have a cerebral cortex (or maybe it's called the "neocortex") as mammals and birds do. Some hold that organisms must have this developed structure/area of the brain in order for them to have that level of awareness. But here's the thing: after having observed insects and aquarium fish, I cannot accept this. I can't fathom how even the behaviorally-simpler insects could act the way they do and not have some capacity to be aware and have desires on some level.

Edited to add: I don't take as much care to avoid harming insects as I do mammals, for example. But I'm just not prepared to write them off completely. I haven't come to a decision as to precisely how much care I should try to give insects, compared to mammals... and maybe I never will.
 
Supposedly... supposedly... insects, as well as other invertebrates and neurologically-simpler vertebrates, can't feel pain (or pleasure)- in fact, aren't really aware of anything... because they don't have a cerebral cortex (or maybe it's called the "neocortex") as mammals and birds do. Some hold that organisms must have this developed structure/area of the brain in order for them to have that level of awareness.
I've read a few articles on this. so of course I'm now an expert. ;)
But just sort of applying common sense. Even the most rudimentary animals can be observed to react to stimuli. Of Course without a cerebral cortex they can't perceive pain like we do. but its evident that they sense something.

I don't think we really can know what they feel and what they are aware of. A bees brain (if you can call it that ) is just a tiny thing. but bees can do the most amazing things. Think about any insect that can walk or fly. Those abilities are pretty sophisticated.
 
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Insects definitely feel something and maybe they are much more complicated than anyone could think.
When the wings of the queen bee is clipped, her behaviour changes so much that the rest of the nest might abandon her. Why would the queens behaviour change if there is nothing happening inside her brains or if she isn't able to feel?
 
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