What if Vegans have got it wrong?

bratvada

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What if we are supposed to eat meat, and just enjoy it and chill the hell out?

Why bother to put the effort it, and face possibly awkward situations in public and society. And don't give me that crap about being perfect, fact is any vegan will face these situations.

And if you are a professional you will no doubt encounter hard nosed types - who will tell you - just eat the bloody meat!!

I need convincing? Is veganism the right thing to do??

I actually like the taste of a kebab. Or scampi for example.
 

Sally

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I don't know why you are on this site, but just in case you are real, the reason a lot of people give up meat and dairy is that animals are treated appallingly. I believe that we are all the same and I am not into cannibalism or torture. If you don't care about animals then you are not going to be vegan. It is healthier, but then it becomes just a diet, not a way of life. Because I am aware of the suffering caused I no longer enjoy any animal product. So, I will not be eating the bloody meat, it is bloodier than you could imagine.
 
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bratvada

bratvada

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I am quite clear on my reason to be present on this site. The only reason I am attracted to the abstinence of veganism is to spite my meat loving brother who wishes me to die early so he can collect on my fathers estate.

Good day to you.
 

Damo

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I am quite clear on my reason to be present on this site. The only reason I am attracted to the abstinence of veganism is to spite my meat loving brother who wishes me to die early so he can collect on my fathers estate.

Good day to you.

As you can probably imagine most members here wont agree with your reasons for going vegan though you should use that for motivation to eat less or cut out the meat/dairy.

Choosing not to eat meat/dairy for whatever the reason is a win for veganism.
 
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bratvada

bratvada

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Luckily I have a few local vegan cafes, so I don't have to exist on a diet of steamed vegetable and cantaloupe.
 

b0d

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Hi

"Supposed to eat meat" yes you are. You are free to choose what you like, welcome to existence.

Here are the facts as I see them.

Humans are nomadic by nature. Today’s needs are different to our "nature". Modern culture encourages us to eat meat but not use the by-products ourselves. This has led to environmental destruction and over-eating meat causing health problems.

Meat is eaten as a survival food, as an alternative to starving. It tastes great but this does not mean it is healthy. From a survival part of view it is better to eat meat than to starve. How many people do you know have been made terribly sick by eating contaminated meat products compared to vegan ones?

Conclusion - meat is rarely selected for consumption exclusively for its nutritional content by indigenous tribes and that modern industrial meat-eating habits are woefully destructive on many levels.

Consider commercial culture promotes the nutritional benefit of meat necessary for the survival of the industry and not your health. The dairy industry is the most obvious example.

Consider animals are hunted and farmed not only for their meat but for teeth, bones, skin, fur, sinew, everything. This is partly why we eat meat. We inherited a culture of "disposing" of animals to obtain not only sustenance but also material critical to survival. This is no longer the case and we eat more meat than ever before simply for the sake of eating meat. This causes practical problems as discussed above.

Consider some environments do not practically support a vegan diet. Consider nomadic tribes that live on frozen waste lands sustained by reindeer products. They are still in existence today. They eat, sleep and poop reindeer. They are quite healthy but I don’t suppose they live for long.

Fish is meat. Inuit’s have a very long life span on average. Significantly longer than most westerners and one can argue their physical life is much more demanding. They are certainly not vegans. They do not contribute to environmental destruction to the same level westerners do as their survival depends on maintaining the eco-system. Western meat eaters are too stupid to admit their part in environmental destruction.

Biologically speaking most of the protein in meat (its most valued element touted by "nutritionists") is not available for digestion and becomes toxic (nitrogenous). Enzymes that digest meat are designed to work on raw meat. When you heat the protein being digested the key (enzyme) no longer fits the lock (protein) because the lock has been melted by heating. Try opening a door lock that has been melted. We cannot utilise protien on its own we must first dissasemble it. Try and find a mathmatical model for a basic animal protein. These are very difficult for us to illustrate, this is how complex animal proteins are.

There is some argument that by eating meat you are also absorbing hormones produced by the animal (bad). There is some argument that culture of indiscriminately eating meat disconnects us from our true inheritance (the planet).
 
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b0d

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I don't know why you are on this site, but just in case you are real, the reason a lot of people give up meat and dairy is that animals are treated appallingly. I believe that we are all the same and I am not into cannibalism or torture. If you don't care about animals then you are not going to be vegan. It is healthier, but then it becomes just a diet, not a way of life. Because I am aware of the suffering caused I no longer enjoy any animal product. So, I will not be eating the bloody meat, it is bloodier than you could imagine.
This is not entirely without bias. Many animals depend on the culling of other animals in order to survive. I am afraid your argument is not so clear cut. Everything is connected. The worlds balance is maintatined by the constant destruction and rebuilding of life on all levels.
If you are referring exclusivly to modern industrial culture then your argument is better. If you are referring to simply killing animals then you are making a purely emotional judgement.
 
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winter.frost

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In certain places of the world, particularly, our ancestors had cause to eat meat in order to survive. In harsh winters, particularly in North West Europe, it would have been almost impossible to survive without the wearing or furs and skins and the milk of a dairy animal. I have often wondered how I would react if all systems were to collapse leaving me to fend for myself in my native country - how efficient I'd be, whether I have the green skills, or whether I'd still starve in protest. I don't believe I would starve, but for now I'm not going to be ruled by a rhetorical scenario and live in the most ethical and responsible way I can whilst taking advantage of the infrastructures. If such a doomsday scenario were to befall us, it would certainly address the sustainability argument if we all went back to homesteads and created nothing beyond its use.

It is, however, very possible to be vegan today in almost all parts of the world. The only reason we keep eating meat is because we can, because it is status quo, and because we have disassociated the taste of it; because you can, you know you can, therefore you do. That is one of the awful human conditions. Whilst all other aspects of our culture appear to have evolved, and we embrace technologies and globalisation, we have left our diets behind - mostly because there any many who feel it is most convenient to do so, especially when wrapped up into an argument of 'culture'. However I do believe that very few societies have a right to this claim, and they are mostly the remaining indigenous cultures that we have - certainly not those that benefit from the fully-vamped system of contemporary Western life.

Besides that, I'd have to say that to recognise 'interconnectivity' does not mean that killing or not killing animals is primarily an emotional choice. Today it is just as pragmatic as it is ethically-driven. But to say 'emotional' is, again, very dissociative. To realise our common side-by-side existence as a community of living beings on this planet does not need to be emotional, spiritual etc. because it is simply fact as well. It can, therefore, be a matter of principle or a rationale which is not emotionally based. That is how the ancient Greeks established their own interpretation of pantheism, after all.

I have always enjoyed this little clip. It's a fun cartoon, and who doesn't love a fun cartoon - or maybe I'm just being lazy because right now I don't want to pull up all the various scientific references. :neutral:
 

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I think once you realise that everyone who consumes animal products has been heavily brainwashed into it, and that if you possess even a modicum of social responsibility for your actions in the world, then it's your duty to break away from the norm and, wherever possible, show that you can be healthy, happy, calm, well-balanced and enjoy life to the absolute fullest....without consuming animal products. It is also worth noting that ethical perfection could well be unattainable full stop, but that doing your best is worthwhile.
 
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bratvada

bratvada

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I think that vegans need to be more flexible if the movement is to succeed in a meaningful way.

Yes, I feel a plant based diet is healthier.
Yes, I believe that animals are treated very poorly.
Yes it does seem obvious that there are serious environmental issues.

I just feel that the vegans should be more relaxed and understand how much joy food is for so many people.
Some people - a lot of people absolutely love meat, dairy and so on. They cook beautiful dishes and it makes people happy.

One could argue that vegetarians are more balanced people. They have a long history of success - just look at the Hindus.

Even on this thread, I was attacked after my initial post. I believe we can talk about these things, and it is not the end of the world if you decide to have eggs, or have honey. It is not illegal! We are still free citizens, and we can do as we please.

It is one of the reasons I got sick of being vegan first time around. Sometimes you need to be realistic and do as the romans do.
 

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Call it transitioning, call it whatever you want! But please fly the flag once you have the power of knowledge to make a difference. It's so important after all, and all those things that were enjoyed as an animal product consumer can be enjoyed from cruelty-free sources once you know how to make/where to buy. Maybe not as conveniently just yet, but that will only improve if people continue to support the movement.

It is hugely frustrating at times to battle the weaknesses, but acknowledging them and not letting those moments overshadow all the good efforts you make is still a big improvement on pretending not to care about any of it.

I've been in your situation and the inner voice saying "you know better than this" always cuts deeper than the one saying "just fit in with the others and pretend it's fine". It's not fine. It's sh!t.

I've been reading recently about this trend among celebrities and bloggers to turn their back on the movement and every story I read I come away feeling embarrassed for them.

Once you know, you know. You can say you don't care and resign yourself to just being a weak-willed person with questionable morals but that sounds exhausting and depressing in itself. It's easier to just feel good about what you're doing and stand by the principals. Don't let anyone grind you down.
 
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bratvada

bratvada

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If I was to choose a side on the battlefield of war. I would wear vegan war paint. :)

I am just trying to say what I feel.

I am still vegan, and it is working well for me. Yes, one or two minor lapses, but so far so good.

Celebrities are a law upon themselves. Good ones are Joaquin Pheonix, Ellen, and Woody Harrleson. but there are others.
 

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Agreed there are still a lot of loud, true and clear voices out there in the public eye. Just not enough!

Maybe the way you bowled into this thread was a tad on the abrasive side but you seem like a sound person with a sense of humour about the whole thing which is always good and the best way to deal with naysayers, moving forward. ;):heart:
 
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winter.frost

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Even on this thread, I was attacked after my initial post. I believe we can talk about these things, and it is not the end of the world if you decide to have eggs, or have honey. It is not illegal! We are still free citizens, and we can do as we please.

Well, certainly we take accusations like 'attacking' very seriously here. I have looked over this thread and I do not think you were 'attacked'.

However there is also the issue of stereotyping. For instance I like to think that I have helped lots of people find more information about the vegan diet. But, like many other vegans trying to 'do their bit' I wouldn't call myself militant, or angry or in need of 'calming down'. The view that vegans are angry people is mostly fuelled by a very small minority within the community. Either by those that perform hostile protests (and I'm all for protests but I do think there are a few organisations who will just have their message fall on deaf or confounded ears via the method) or upload controversial YouTube videos. The irony is that most people who go to veganism are very balanced in themselves - their journey towards plant based food, and their satisfaction in practising it, contributes to this.

So we must be careful not to fuel this misconception. Vegans are not always angry or judgemental and I think this is why Damo kindly offered me the Moderator post here.

This aside, and jokes aside, there are actually a great deal many people who feel the world could end if we continue to eat honey and treat the bees the way we do. Vanishing of the Bees and More than Honey are two very informative documentaries. Or you could Google 'colony collapse disease', the facts of which are frightening. Actually I am sympathetic to those who eat honey provided that they use honey produced by Warre or Top Bar hives or natural methods. Some vegans here would find that controversial but, just as you say, I do try to be sympathetic where I can - but I never turn from educating others either.

There are many that would answer 'we can do as we please' with 'that's part of the problem'. Also, Hindus are typically lacto vegetarians and therefore do not eat eggs.
 

Kazie

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I just feel that the vegans should be more relaxed and understand how much joy food is for so many people.
Some people - a lot of people absolutely love meat, dairy and so on. They cook beautiful dishes and it makes people happy.

One could argue that vegetarians are more balanced people. They have a long history of success - just look at the Hindus.

I think this is a matter of how you go about veganism: you will oftentimes hear that people think of veganism as some sort of cult. Veganism is obviously not a cult, but some vegans have the tendency to go about their lifestyle as such. You can be an open-minded and accepting vegan, still cook beautiful dishes and make people happy, or you can be a vegan who resents people not adhering to their lifestyle. Your call.

I was raised as a vegetarian and as I took the step of being vegan, my parents turned to me and asked me whether I was doing it for some assimilation reason. Even now, they regularly try to challenge my lifestyle. I think what matters most is what you want for yourself and why you chose to be vegan.

Cultures deal differently about such matters and I find the Hindus more open-minded about these questions. But nowadays their heritage is also jeopardized by the globalisation. As a consequence going to have a meal at MacDonald's suddenly become a sign of social welfare. Things evolve, people too. ;)
 
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winter.frost

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I find the Hindus more open-minded about these questions. But nowadays their heritage is also jeopardized by the globalisation. As a consequence going to have a meal at MacDonald's suddenly become a sign of social welfare. Things evolve, people too. ;)

However MacDonald's is almost exclusively vegetarian in India. The first restaurant switched to veggie back in 2012 and they have been slowly converting their restaurants ever since. Mostly due to the sacred status of the cow and their predominantly lacto-vegetarian diet.
 

Sally

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I think veganism is a completely personal choice. Only you can decide what is right for you, I tell people that I became vegan because I became aware of the extreme suffering animals raised for food are put through. Then I went to a wildlife/cruel sports open day and found out about how badly we treat animals in sport and the wild, so now I do not think it is fair to use animals for pleasure or work, anymore than we would use small children. If you can take responsibility for your own actions and walk your own path, it does not matter how other people act. One should be able to look at the information, and there is enough out there, and make up ones own mind. I would never berate someone for their life choices, but I will share with them information so that they can understand mine. They might even agree with me.
 
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winter.frost

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...now I do not think it is fair to use animals for pleasure or work, anymore than we would use small children.

I don't think I'd thought to put it like that, which is something I will certainly 'memory bank' for the next time I'm asked. :)
 

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Well we are supposed to eat meat, but not on such a huge scale:confused:. To me going vegan is the only choice you have left knowing the situation. When you educate yourself, do some research you will see how bad it really is. Its really simple.
The meat and dairy industry is all about profits these days, they don't care about your health or the environment. Factory farms are a disaster for the environment and our health.

So there are two reasons why I wanted to become a vegan. One is compassion for animals - one of the best vegan lectures for me is;
His presentation has completely changed the way I see food & animals now.

Two- saving the planet and the real eye opener here for me was Cowspiracy The Sustainability Secret(you can watch on Netflix)


After watching these I just couldn't go back to what I was doing. "Cowspiracy" shows the viewer that you cannot eat meat and think you aren’t harming the earth. The choice is yours...