Veganism is not inherently the most ethical life style.

[anarchist100]

Many crops crown to make vegan food use pesticides that kill way more animal than would die in the production of a steak, also poor people in other countries suffer too, Women in India pay the price for cashew nut demand as vegan diets rise | Metro News, many of the vegan food we buy is made by a company that also makes meat products, so we are funding that mass execution and torture of animals by buying from them! Without knowing!

 

[David3]

Many crops crown to make vegan food use pesticides that kill way more animal than would die in the production of a steak, also poor people in other countries suffer too, Women in India pay the price for cashew nut demand as vegan diets rise | Metro News, many of the vegan food we buy is made by a company that also makes meat products, so we are funding that mass execution and torture of animals by buying from them! Without knowing!

.
This is an interesting area of study.

There are at least 2 peer-reviewed studies that quantify the animal deaths resulting from a vegan diet, vs. the animal deaths resulting from a meat-centered diet. Here are the studies that I'm aware of (please see links below). Both of these studies are detailed, and yet they arrive at opposite conclusions! I think you will find the reports informative and thought-provoking.

https://fewd.univie.ac.at/fileadmin/user_upload/inst_ethik_wiss_dialog/Davis__S._2003_The_least_Harm_-_Anti_Veg_in_J._Agric._Ethics.pdf

https://fewd.univie.ac.at/fileadmin/user_upload/inst_ethik_wiss_dialog/Matheny__G._2003_Defense_of_Veg__in_J._Agric_Ethics.pdf

Per the International Nut and Dried Fruit Council, India by far is the largest consumer of cashews (see link and chart below). As far as I know, cashews are not essential to a vegan diet.
Link: Cashew prices are about to go nuts | Bloomberg Professional Services



Agreed - some veg foods are made by companies that also sell slaughter foods. Even when we buy vegan food from an organic market, it's likely that the market also sells meat. Unless there is a vegan-only market near you, this is a very difficult situation to avoid.

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[Lou]

Many crops crown to make vegan food use pesticides that kill way more animal than would die in the production of a steak, also poor people in other countries suffer too, Women in India pay the price for cashew nut demand as vegan diets rise | Metro News, many of the vegan food we buy is made by a company that also makes meat products, so we are funding that mass execution and torture of animals by buying from them! Without knowing!

Those of us who have been vegan for a while have heard variations of this for ... well for a long time. The people who say this are anti-vegans. Maybe they are shills for the livestock industry. Or maybe they dislike vegans because we are different and that scares them. Or the existence of vegans makes them fell guilty.

The best way to contradict this argument is to simply point out that livestock eat crops. and since livestock is inherently inefficient, more crops are indirectly consumed by meat eaters than if the meat eaters were vegan.

Vegans are not the only consumers of cashews. Or almonds. or just about anything. So the blame for the inequities must be borne by society as a whole not just a small segment of t he population.

the companies that provide vegans with food may not be as ethical or free from blame as we wish. However, I think vegans are way more concerned with ethically sourced food than the average consumer. For instance, I know that there are sources of Cashew that are ethically processed.

Plus it says right in the definition "as far as practicable and possible".

And the "without knowing" stuff is wrong. I for one am fully aware.

 

[Danielle]

Compared to the alternative, it is.

 

[VeganAnon]

Vegan is ideal since it doesn't kill or hurt anything as a principle. Reality, the world is not set up for that yet. It would take time to adjust and change.

 

[anarchist100]

Those of us who have been vegan for a while have heard variations of this for ... well for a long time. The people who say this are anti-vegans. Maybe they are shills for the livestock industry. Or maybe they dislike vegans because we are different and that scares them. Or the existence of vegans makes them fell guilty.

The best way to contradict this argument is to simply point out that livestock eat crops. and since livestock is inherently inefficient, more crops are indirectly consumed by meat eaters than if the meat eaters were vegan.

Vegans are not the only consumers of cashews. Or almonds. or just about anything. So the blame for the inequities must be borne by society as a whole not just a small segment of t he population.

the companies that provide vegans with food may not be as ethical or free from blame as we wish. However, I think vegans are way more concerned with ethically sourced food than the average consumer. For instance, I know that there are sources of Cashew that are ethically processed.

Plus it says right in the definition "as far as practicable and possible".

And the "without knowing" stuff is wrong. I for one am fully aware.

I'm not anti-vegan for pointing out the unethical companies that are using us to make money, I am fully in support of animal rights, and would like to shut down the meat industry, but there is such a thing as unethical vegan products.

 

[Lou]

I'm not anti-vegan for pointing out the unethical companies that are using us to make money, I am fully in support of animal rights, and would like to shut down the meat industry, but there is such a thing as unethical vegan products.

Is there an alternative? is there a solution?
How about this? buy the products that are the least un-ethical.

A lot of good products are made by companies that are then owned or are divisions of corporations that make non-vegan products. I see it as sort of the same thing as buying tofu at the same grocery store the has a meat, dairy, and seafood department.

 

[anarchist100]

Is there an alternative? is there a solution?
How about this? buy the products that are the least un-ethical.

A lot of good products are made by companies that are then owned or are divisions of corporations that make non-vegan products. I see it as sort of the same thing as buying tofu at the same grocery store the has a meat, dairy, and seafood department.

Personally I think we shouldn't buy anything, although some people live in cities and have to buy stuff, so I would suggest buying from your local mom and pop shop.

 

[silva]

I've come across so many vegans opposed to companies owned by meat or dairy based conglomerates.
Silk in particular comes to mind. Their idea was to only support the small business. Well ya know what? SILK and all it's advertising power money is probably the NUMBER ONE reason for the non dairy milks takeover of the dairy aisle. Responsible for parents buying soy and almond milk for their kids, for all the non dairy creamers, yogurts, and ice creams.

Mom and pop industries don't affect, can't affect, more than the buyers who've already turned vegan.

Big business got big for a reason, and if it finds the demand changing it will be forced to change--as it is changing

 

[Danielle]

That's not an easy thing to ask of people, to give up shopping at big stores. If you wanted a specific thing, it wouldn't be easy to find in a mom and pop store. They likely won't have it, or it will cost more. I prefer to have as much stuff delivered if possible, to save me the trouble of having to go to the store in person. Even before the pandemic, I preferred that. Mom and pop stores won't deliver, and are probably very far from me.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Excellent post Lou.

 

[Lou]

I've come across so many vegans opposed to companies owned by meat or dairy based conglomerates.
Silk in particular comes to mind. Their idea was to only support the small business. Well ya know what? SILK and all it's advertising power money is probably the NUMBER ONE reason for the non dairy milks takeover of the dairy aisle. Responsible for parents buying soy and almond milk for their kids, for all the non dairy creamers, yogurts, and ice creams.

Mom and pop industries don't affect, can't affect, more than the buyers who've already turned vegan.

Big business got big for a reason, and if it finds the demand changing it will be forced to change--as it is changing

Silk is an interesting case history and perhaps a good analogy for this issue.

I remember being a baby vegan and a big consumer of Silk products. at the time silk was the largest purchaser of organic, Non-GMO, North American soybeans. Definitely one of the good guys. but then they got bought up by Dean foods. one of if not the largest producers and distributers of dairy products. some vegan organizations called for a boycott of Silk. Then a few years later there was a big brouhaha about whether the soybeans in silk were still organic. and there was another boycott. I think I participated in both boycotts. Then Silk became independent again and became one of the good guys- even winning the Green Power award 5 times in a row.

then Danone bought up Silk. Danone is a Huge multinational dairy company.

This kind of stuff is SOP in the food industry. Some of the Democrats in congress are already drafting laws to limit the power and monopolistic activities by Big Food. But until then, buying Soymilk is still better ethically than buying cow's milk. even if the soy milk maker is owned and operated by big dairy.

 

[Urban Gardener]

As Lou already mentioned:

When you consume meat, you are also consuming (indirectly) all of the food that the animal ate during its lifetime. That’s a lot of plants.

Because of this, the majority of crops grown in the US are grown to feed livestock.

Crops grown to feed livestock don’t have to meet the same standards as those grown for human consumption. So they may be exposed to more pesticides, or more toxic ones.

Yes, not all plant foods are produced ethically. This is a great reason to be selective about what you eat, to support local farms and local producers, to grow as much of your own food as you can.

If you’re concerned about cashews, don’t buy them, or seek out ethically produced ones. Look for local small farms that grow nuts, or gather your own. Pecans are abundant and easy to find in parts of the US, for example.

The points raised here come up again and again. They’re based on scientific ignorance - ignorance of the concept of the food chain. Plants get their nutrients from the soil and sunlight. Animals, then, get their nutrients from plants and other animals.

The people making those arguments need to revisit their elementary school science lessons. The food chain is a pretty basic idea, one that most kids are introduced to early on.

 

[Jon]

None of that is the fault of a vegan diet. Just the same as it's not the fault of a speeding car that kills someone., It's the drivers fault and the same applies to the Vegan diet. It's the fault of the producer, not the food! Nor the person who buys the food. And it goes way further back than that. We wouldn't have these so called pests if we hadn't killed off their predators in the 1st place. It's nowhere near as simple as you post suggests. I'm sure there's a lot more to it than I have mentioned. Every creature is part of a life/earth cycle and when you disrupt one it goes all the way up the chain!

 

[anarchist100]

I have the feeling that most of the people who posted here see this post as an attack on their lifestyle and are politely hiding their anger.

 

[anarchist100]

I've come across so many vegans opposed to companies owned by meat or dairy based conglomerates.
Silk in particular comes to mind. Their idea was to only support the small business. Well ya know what? SILK and all it's advertising power money is probably the NUMBER ONE reason for the non dairy milks takeover of the dairy aisle. Responsible for parents buying soy and almond milk for their kids, for all the non dairy creamers, yogurts, and ice creams.

Mom and pop industries don't affect, can't affect, more than the buyers who've already turned vegan.

Big business got big for a reason, and if it finds the demand changing it will be forced to change--as it is changing

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[1956]

I have the feeling that most of the people who posted here see this post as an attack on their lifestyle and are politely hiding their anger.

From what I have seen I think that the people who have responded have done so honestly... I did not feel the need to respond as many people stated pretty much how I feel...Many of us have been Vegan for a long time and are quite used to hearing what you stated in your original post...Maybe they have been being polite and taking into consideration the fact that you are still quite young - which by the way I did notice that today is your Birthday and that you have just turned 15!
Congratulations! Hope that you are having a good day!
For myself I certainly don’t feel anger when I hear arguments like this against being Vegan because being angry about ignorance doesn’t help...The only cure for ignorance is knowledge... Just keep on learning...

 

[silva]

I have the feeling that most of the people who posted here see this post as an attack on their lifestyle and are politely hiding their anger.

There's no internet off grid

Are you disputing our rebuttals?

 

[anarchist100]

From what I have seen I think that the people who have responded have done so honestly... I did not feel the need to respond as many people stated pretty much how I feel...Many of us have been Vegan for a long time and are quite used to hearing what you stated in your original post...Maybe they have been being polite and taking into consideration the fact that you are still quite young - which by the way I did notice that today is your Birthday and that you have just turned 15!
Congratulations! Hope that you are having a good day!
For myself I certainly don’t feel anger when I hear arguments like this against being Vegan because being angry about ignorance doesn’t help...The only cure for ignorance is knowledge... Just keep on learning...

This was never an argument against veganism, I just don't think we should buy from companies that also produce meat products.

 

[silva]

Thanks for proving my point.

So what's your solution?
and really, what's your point? To keep veganism a weird fringe lifestyle that excludes those who breaks rank?

and what exactly do you see as the goal?