Using the race card or a slavery analogy to help animals?

Sam

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Would that work does anyone try it?

There are alot of similarities between the two, both animals and slaves were owned, used abused, they both suffer, they both have feelings emotional and physical. Both of what should be basic rights are torn apart.

On top of that the race card is extremely persuasive and taboo, it has massive political and social power.

Has PETA or anyone simlar tried that line of campaigning?
 
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poivron

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This is beyond-the-pale offensive. I think that you are a troll who is here to try to make vegans look bad. So far, you have:
This latest post, comparing slaves to animals, and suggesting that the vegan movement exploit the suffering of a group of people who have suffered long enough and are still not treated fairly, is the last straw. I will no longer respond to any of your posts. I hereby declare that my non-response to Sam's posts is no sign of agreement with his vile and outrageous statements.
 
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nobody

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This is beyond-the-pale offensive.

All forms of discrimination, such as racisim, speciesism, sexism, heterosexism, classism, etc. are fundamentally the same and animal rights activists make the analogy to human slavery all the time. I'm not aware of any that don't. The Holocaust survivor Alex Hershaft talks about the parallels between animal oppression and Jewish oppression during the Holocaust:


Here, Melanie Joy lists reasons for why someone may take offense to these analogies:

Melanie Joy said:
One reason is that people are simply unaware of both the similar structures of violent ideologies, and the true horrors of animal exploitation.

Another reason is that speciesism has conditioned us to believe that nonhuman animals are “inferior others” whose suffering is fundamentally different from human suffering and whose interests matter less than human interests. For example, although we have evidence that many animals are equally capable of feeling pain, we nevertheless proceed as though humans are the only species that possess sentience. And most people rarely, if ever, question whether humans should have the right to wield complete control over nonhuman animals’ bodies, habitats, lives, and deaths, or whether the tremendous suffering inflicted on billions of animals in order to serve human interests is just.

“Human privilege,” the belief that humans are entitled to use animals for our own ends, causes us to react defensively to the suggestion that humans and nonhumans have an equal capacity to suffer, have an equal desire to live free from harm, have lives that are equally important to them, or deserve equal consideration of their interests. And, like other forms of privilege, human privilege is deeply ingrained, largely invisible, and strongly defended.

A final reason people may take offense at the comparison between human and animal suffering is because they focus on the experience of the victims, rather than on the experience of the perpetrators. It is impossible to know – or therefore to accurately compare – the suffering of two individuals or groups. For example, while there are many similarities, the experience of a Jewish concentration camp prisoner in Germany would have been different than the experience of an African slave in the United States.

However, the mentality that enabled both atrocities was the same; all forms of violence and oppression rely on the same psychological mechanisms.
 
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Sam

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This is beyond-the-pale offensive. I think that you are a troll who is here to try to make vegans look bad. So far, you have:
This latest post, comparing slaves to animals, and suggesting that the vegan movement exploit the suffering of a group of people who have suffered long enough and are still not treated fairly, is the last straw. I will no longer respond to any of your posts. I hereby declare that my non-response to Sam's posts is no sign of agreement with his vile and outrageous statements.

Cool
 

Forest Nymph

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Yes PETA ran a holocaust campaign that ****** some people off, but little did they know it was actually designed by a Jewish holocaust survivor for PETA who became an animal rights activist because he saw his entire family die.

There's also a speaker who is a woman of color who is coming to my uni this month to discuss the connection between racism and discrimination towards different groups of people and how that is linked to speciesism.

I think murder and violence is connected to animal violence as well. I think that's why in Judaism even thousands of years ago they had very strict laws about animals. The Bible is truly fascinating in that books that were removed by early Christians from Jewish scripture - the Books of Enoch - talk about how humans started eating meat because demons taught them how. If you notice Adam and Eve were vegan and Noah - the grandchild of Enoch and a vegetarian - was the only man chose as righteous enough to save the human race and all animals from the Great Flood.
 
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Sam

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I think linking black people slavery and farmed animals could be extremely powerful persuasion wise. The Jewish a good idea but it doesnt have the taboo factor, white society is nuts about black history, it scares the crap out of everyone esp politicians.
 

Forest Nymph

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I think linking black people slavery and farmed animals could be extremely powerful persuasion wise. The Jewish a good idea but it doesnt have the taboo factor, white society is nuts about black history, it scares the crap out of everyone esp politicians.

I wouldn't word it exactly as you have because it sounds a bit racist, but I see where you're going with this, and you seem like someone who should join PETA. I've been a member for a while and I know their methods are brilliant and they work. The best creative vegan minds and best vegan legal teams work for PETA...no they don't work on every individual, some people (even other vegans) think they're annoying or too pushy...but the fact of the matter is PETA actually changes laws, gets labs shut down, and makes people aware of what's happening. They also have one of the most thorough free or low cost vaults of information for vegan lifestyle and eating. I want to work for them possibly when I graduate.

Ingrid Newkirk is a brilliant business woman. I think she's an ENTJ in Myers Briggs.

 
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Sam

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I wouldn't word it exactly as you have because it sounds a bit racist, but I see where you're going with this, and you seem like someone who should join PETA. I've been a member for a while and I know their methods are brilliant and they work. The best creative vegan minds and best vegan legal teams work for PETA...no they don't work on every individual, some people (even other vegans) think they're annoying or too pushy...but the fact of the matter is PETA actually changes laws, gets labs shut down, and makes people aware of what's happening. They also have one of the most thorough free or low cost vaults of information for vegan lifestyle and eating. I want to work for them possibly when I graduate.

Ingrid Newkirk is a brilliant business woman. I think she's an ENTJ in Myers Briggs.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106757/PETA-killed-95-adoptable-dogs-cats-care-year.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-j-winograd/peta-kills-puppies-kittens_b_2979220.html

This is what concerns me about PETA, looks great but then they go and do things like this. They will probably deny it ? But they lie and spin so much can you believe them?

Also where does all their money go? They get alot of money and it doesnt cost much to do media stuff, Im not sure how moral PETA is I have serious doubts.
 
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poivron

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The first post in this thread has nothing with a Holocaust survivor comparing what is happening to animals to the Holocaust. My post was, indeed, worded carefully to prevent people from bringing up the unrelated example of the Holocaust survivor, but some people are clearly too anxious to make what they think is a clever point to bother to read things carefully.

The OP advocates exploiting the suffering of a group of people, without that group's permission, in order to advance an unrelated cause. The people in question are still suffering from gross discrimination. The last thing they need right now is to have their struggle for equality be exploited for other purposes. If you cannot see why this is offensive, you are much too focused on veganism to recognize the seriousness of other forms of discrimination.

The OP's goal, I am certain, was to make vegans look bad by provoking exactly the types of defense of his racism as have been posted in this thread. Veganism, at its core, is about respecting all living beings. Condoning the exploitation of minorities is anti-vegan at heart. My expression of disgust at the OP has nothing to do with speciesism. It has everything to do with respect, which is what is absent from all of the OP's posts.

Saying that factory farming is worse than slavery is like saying that murder is worse than rape. It's like saying that torture followed by murder is worse than just murder. It's like saying armed robbery is worse than homophobia. No good can come of making this type of comparison. And the OP knows that.
 
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Sam

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The first post in this thread has nothing with a Holocaust survivor comparing what is happening to animals to the Holocaust. My post was, indeed, worded carefully to prevent people from bringing up the unrelated example of the Holocaust survivor, but some people are clearly too anxious to make what they think is a clever point to bother to read things carefully.

The OP advocates exploiting the suffering of a group of people, without that group's permission, in order to advance an unrelated cause. The group of people in question are still suffering from gross discrimination. The last thing they need right now is to have their struggle for equality be exploited for other purposes. If you cannot see why this is offensive, you are much too focused on veganism to recognize the seriousness of other forms of discrimination.

The OP's goal, I am certain, was to make vegans look bad by provoking exactly the types of defense of his racism as have been posted in this thread. Veganism, at its core, is about respecting all living beings. Condoning disrespect of minorities is anti-vegan at heart. My expression of disgust at the OP has nothing to do with speciesism. It has everything to do with respect, which is what is absent from all of the OP's posts.

Saying that factory farming is worse than slavery is like saying that murder is worse than rape. It's like saying that torture followed by murder is worse than just murder. It's like saying armed robbery is worse than homophobia. No good can come of making this type of comparison. And the OP knows that.

Its a horrible option I admit, but it is desperate times, which means desperate measures are on the table. You would of course put a black vegan in charge of the project if he wanted to do it. Like with the holocaust job. Its also an honest analogy because animals are kept to work or suffer and they are also killed after, also humans are just another species of animal.

The publicity would be huge, what grabs more attention than black people in white society?

Black people are not suffering now like animals are, sure their fight for equality is still on, but they have equal rights by law now and have made other massive strides forward throughout history.

I personally think you are an unhappy person trolling because of whatever emotional pain you have. One of the games trolls play of course is to accuse their mark of being the troll annoy them then report them when the retaliate, to get them banned.

There are good vegans and bad ones, like with everything, I like Vegan gains and his style on you tube, it started off very honest no BS fact orientated I think its a really smart style of campaigning. PETA also have really smart ideas clearly but I think some of them are short sighted in style, I also don't trust them, the spin etc is one thing that eliminates credibility but the money they generate and expend is out of whack its almost like a greedy business, on top of that they are reported to be killing/have killed rehousable puppies and kittens. If that is true I want nothing to do with them because then they almost as evil and manipulative as the meat industry.
 
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poivron

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Here, Melanie Joy lists reasons for why someone may take offense to these analogies:

If you actually read the quote from carnism.org, it states that one cannot compare the suffering of different groups and say that one group suffers or suffered more than another. What one can do is make generalizations about the systems that inflict different types of suffering on different groups.

There's also a speaker who is a woman of color who is coming to my uni this month to discuss the connection between racism and discrimination towards different groups of people and how that is linked to speciesism.

The person is a woman of color. Just as feminists get angry when men "mansplain" for them or try to lead the feminist movement, it is inappropriate for white people to propose exploiting the anti-racist movement's language and efforts in the vegan movement, or to argue, without first asking black people for their opinion, that such proposals are not offensive to black people.

Honestly, if I were you, I would first listen to the speaker's presentation, and perhaps ask her some questions, before presuming to speak for her. If I were that speaker, I would not be happy at all to have the fact that I happen to be giving a talk used to defend a troll's efforts to make vegans look bad.
 
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poivron

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I will no longer post on this thread, since keeping it alive seems to be feeding the troll and causing increasingly racist posts. I only hope that those who were unable to recognize his racism give some further thought to why a Holocaust survivor's statements do not provide an across-the-board justification for disrespecting and exploiting every other minority's struggle.
 
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Sam

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I will no longer post on this thread, since keeping it alive seems to be feeding the troll and causing increasingly racist posts. I only hope that those who were unable to recognize his racism give some further thought to why a Holocaust survivor's statements do not provide an across-the-board justification for disrespecting and exploiting every other minority's struggle.

Cya
 

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Its a horrible option I admit, but it is desperate times, which means desperate measures are on the table. You would of course put a black vegan in charge of the project if he wanted to do it. Like with the holocaust job. Its also an honest analogy because animals are kept to work or suffer and they are also killed after, also humans are just another species of animal.

The publicity would be huge, what grabs more attention than black people in white society?

Black people are not suffering now like animals are, sure their fight for equality is still on, but they have equal rights by law now and have made other massive strides forward throughout history.

I personally think you are an unhappy person trolling because of whatever emotional pain you have. One of the games trolls play of course is to accuse their mark of being the troll annoy them then report them when the retaliate, to get them banned.

There are good vegans and bad ones, like with everything, I like Vegan gains and his style on you tube, it started off very honest no BS fact orientated I think its a really smart style of campaigning. PETA also have really smart ideas clearly but I think some of them are short sighted in style, I also don't trust them, the spin etc is one thing that eliminates credibility but the money they generate and expend is out of whack its almost like a greedy business, on top of that they are reported to be killing/have killed rehousable puppies and kittens. If that is true I want nothing to do with them because then they almost as evil and manipulative as the meat industry.

oh dear :sleeping:

this all sounds very crazy. I'm out too.

'cya'
 
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You know up until recently I've always thought of vegans as the peaceful and compassionate kind of people, going through threads such as this one I'm starting to realise I was wrong It doesn't matter whether someone's vegan or not there's still going to be conflict regardless.

The whole point of this forum is to help vegans alike to communicate with each other, a pleasant place for the curious to understand what veganism is all about but instead I'm seeing a growing number of threads where we're at each others throats with all kinds of profanity. If I showed this thread to someone who was contemplating veganism I can guarantee they'd think we're all a bunch are sociopaths, all this aggressiveness to new vegans or people contemplating veganism has to stop.

@Sam you seem to be the cause of all of this commotion, could you act a little more civilised towards people? You seem fairly opinionated which isn't necessarily a bad thing but obviously many people are not, I've noticed that vegans are generally a little more sensitive than the average person so I'm asking you to think before you post in the thought of "how many people will I offend if I post this".
 
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Sam

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You know up until recently I've always thought of vegans as the peaceful and compassionate kind of people, going through threads such as this one I'm starting to realise I was wrong It doesn't matter whether someone's vegan or not there's still going to be conflict regardless.

The whole point of this forum is to help vegans alike to communicate with each other, a pleasant place for the curious to understand what veganism is all about but instead I'm seeing a growing number of threads where we're at each others throats with all kinds of profanity. If I showed this thread to someone who was contemplating veganism I can guarantee they'd think we're all a bunch are sociopaths, all this aggressiveness to new vegans or people contemplating veganism has to stop.

@Sam you seem to be the cause of all of this commotion, could you act a little more civilised towards people? You seem fairly opinionated which isn't necessarily a bad thing but obviously many people are not, I've noticed that vegans are generally a little more sensitive than the average person so I'm asking you to think before you post in the thought of "how many people will I offend if I post this".

awkward-seal-ft.jpg


Oh you're administrator, butt kissing mode activated, yes sir no sir 2 bags full, please dont ban me
 
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Once upon a time there was a troll whose name was One. He ingratiated himself into a community by telling tales of terrible cruelty to animals and how he had personally suffered greatly in attempting so hard to help them but was then threatened that matters would be made worse just to spite him.

Once embedded he slowly built up the ante until a community member had the audacity to accuse him of trolling. This was a great upset for him because his work had only just begun. Something must be done to remedy the situation. A cunning plan was needed.

Then a troll named Two posted an old chestnut of such a nature that Troll One was able to accuse him of trolling. Troll Two, having been immediately outed, poured forth with a great torrent of foul abuse directed at Troll One. A gallant knight named Sir Damo arrived on the scene and deleted the thread.

Trolls One and Troll Two then lived happily ever after in their own company because, of course, Trolls One and Two were indeed the same.

Roger.
 
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Jamie in Chile

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To answer the original question, the slavery analogy logically makes sense but it’s too emotional an argument. A speciesist (i.e. most meat eaters) finds it offensive, and therefore it’s not effective for white people to use.

I think Poivron is being too harsh. Also, being veganism means not using animal products. It isn’t some kind of by-word for all-encompassing perfect morality in every way. I think such comments may be unhelpful when some vegans do this because it plays into this idea that vegans are, or are supposed to be, morally superior to others in every way, which is not inclusive. I refer here to the first two bullets of your first post.

I was wrongly accused of being a troll when I first came onto a vegan forum (not this one which came later). I think in general, people are too quick to condemn others as trolls, and to be apparently certain about it, when to me the evidence is inconclusive in this and other cases. Expecting perfection (even in grammar apparently) in everyone in how they write on a forum is going to make veganism inaccessible to the young, uneducated and various others.

The only think that we can say definitively Sam is guilty of is a lack of political correctness and care expressing ideas, I don’t think it’s fair to call out someone as racist for that. I don’t see that the ideas themselves are inaccurate or racist just because he hasn’t bothered to do the usual sugar coating that we do for any comment relating to black people.

If we start labelling people as racist for the tiniest lack of political correctness or eloquence in expressing themselves people will just not dare posting on the forum – or at least not on certain topics. This is the kind of thing that causes, say, conservatives to shut down and avoid debate that would be helpful to them. I prefer vegan forums to other ones because I think the level of debate, both intellectually and in terms of respect for other posters, tends to be higher than other forums that I post on. However, let’s not be overly aggressive in shutting people down unless they really have said something awful.