"The Nazis were socialists"

[fakei]

(MOD NOTE: This has been split from the Liberal/Conservative Divide thread.)

BTW while Hitler seems to have had conservative views the Nazis were not typical conservatives or fascists, they were also socialist, anti-family, neo-Pagans. Ernst Röhm was openly gay and Hitler when questioned about it didn't have a problem, although he latter got rid of him.

 

[fakei]

I wrote above that the the Nazis were also not typical fascists but am not sure how accurate that is. They are usually regarded as such.

 

[Second Summer]

BTW while Hitler seems to have had conservative views the Nazis were not typical conservatives or fascists, they were also socialist, anti-family, neo-Pagans. Ernst Röhm was openly gay and Hitler when questioned about it didn't have a problem, although he latter got rid of him.

I disagree that Nazis were socialist. In a few respects they might seem more similar to typical socialist parties than to modern-day conservatives because they had programmes and policies that benefited the population as whole, not just the wealthy: the building of the Autobahn, the development of the People's Car - Volkswagen, a state-run social welfare charity and an all-powerful state - they were definitely "big government" people. And yes, there was that word "socialist" behind one of the letters in the NSDAP acronym. But that does not make the Nazis into a socialist movement. Nazis hated socialism, and imprisoned and murdered people who belonged to socialist and social democratic parties.

I wrote above that the the Nazis were also not typical fascists but am not sure how accurate that is. They are usually regarded as such.

Yes. There were many similarities, and of course Nazi-Germany was allied with fascist Italy.

 

[fakei]

I disagree that Nazis were socialist. In a few respects they might seem more similar to typical socialist parties than to modern-day conservatives because they had programmes and policies that benefited the population as whole, not just the wealthy: the building of the Autobahn, the development of the People's Car - Volkswagen, a state-run social welfare charity and an all-powerful state - they were definitely "big government" people. And yes, there was that word "socialist" behind one of the letters in the NSDAP acronym. But that does not make the Nazis into a socialist movement. Nazis hated socialism, and imprisoned and murdered people who belonged to socialist and social democratic parties.

Yes. There were many similarities, and of course Nazi-Germany was allied with fascist Italy.

Agreed and thanks for the correction, it was incorrect to say they were socialists, should have wrote they had socialist policies.

 

[Pythagoras]

I disagree that Nazis were socialist. In a few respects they might seem more similar to typical socialist parties than to modern-day conservatives because they had programmes and policies that benefited the population as whole, not just the wealthy: the building of the Autobahn, the development of the People's Car - Volkswagen, a state-run social welfare charity and an all-powerful state - they were definitely "big government" people. And yes, there was that word "socialist" behind one of the letters in the NSDAP acronym. But that does not make the Nazis into a socialist movement. Nazis hated socialism, and imprisoned and murdered people who belonged to socialist and social democratic parties.

Yes. There were many similarities, and of course Nazi-Germany was allied with fascist Italy.

Stalin imprisoned and murdered many socialists, but he was still a socialist. There are sometimes vicious internecine battles within socialism. If socialists are those who support a large and intrusive government that purports to serve the people then both the Nazis and Fascists were socialists.

Nazis: Still Socialists | National Review

This feels like old times. Across the pond at the Telegraph, Tim Stanley and Daniel Hannan are having a friendly disagreement on the question of whether the Nazis were in fact socialists. I don’t u…

www.nationalreview.com

 

[Second Summer]

Stalin imprisoned and murdered many socialists, but he was still a socialist.

Yes, Stalin was a dictator and socialist. But he didn't imprison and murder other socialists because they were socialists.

There are sometimes vicious internecine battles within socialism. If socialists are those who support a large and intrusive government that purports to serve the people then both the Nazis and Fascists were socialists.

"Big Government" is only one of many characteristics of socialism and it's not an essential characteristic as some flavours of socialism work for a society with little or no government.

The notion that the NSDAP was a socialist party is ridiculous, and yes, I'm aware there are people on the right-wing of US American politics who wants to paint the NSDAP as a socialists party because they can't bear to admit their political kinship with Adolf Hitler, the most hated figure in modern history. The NSDAP was helped to political power in 1933 by the conservative/right of the Reichstag. Nazi Germany's most prominent political allies were Fascist Italy, Falangist Spain, various right-wing governments in Eastern Europe, and the super conservative Imperial Japan. Additionally, the NSDAP was obsessed with race, racist conspiracy theories, eugenics, white (Aryan) supremacy and so on, which again is a characteristic of the far-right. They also encouraged traditional gender roles and sent women back to work in the home (until they were forced to let some of them return because they needed all the labour they could get for the war effort).

 

[Pythagoras]

Yes, Stalin was a dictator and socialist. But he didn't imprison and murder other socialists because they were socialists.

"Big Government" is only one of many characteristics of socialism and it's not an essential characteristic as some flavours of socialism work for a society with little or no government.

The notion that the NSDAP was a socialist party is ridiculous, and yes, I'm aware there are people on the right-wing of US American politics who wants to paint the NSDAP as a socialists party because they can't bear to admit their political kinship with Adolf Hitler, the most hated figure in modern history. The NSDAP was helped to political power in 1933 by the conservative/right of the Reichstag. Nazi Germany's most prominent political allies were Fascist Italy, Falangist Spain, various right-wing governments in Eastern Europe, and the super conservative Imperial Japan. Additionally, the NSDAP was obsessed with race, racist conspiracy theories, eugenics, white (Aryan) supremacy and so on, which again is a characteristic of the far-right. They also encouraged traditional gender roles and sent women back to work in the home (until they were forced to let some of them return because they needed all the labour they could get for the war effort).

Stalin killed devotees of competing brands of socialism, Hitler did the same. If Hitler killed all socialists he’d have to kill himself and leading Nazis like Goebbels.

Joseph Goebbels Quotes about socialist

Collection of sourced quotations by Joseph Goebbels on socialist. Discover popular and famous socialist quotes by Joseph Goebbels.

libquotes.com

Hitler Was a Socialist Who Learned from Karl Marx. Here Are the Quotes to Prove It

Tens of millions of people around the world have been taught Hitler was a "far-right" tyrant, but the truth is, Hitler was a left-wing socialist.

stoppingsocialism.com

If big government is not an essential characteristic of socialism what is? Cooperation? Concern for the poor?

I’ve noticed that many on the left can’t bear to admit that the Nazis were socialists even though Nazi stands for National Socialist German Workers Party!

The most important Nazi alliance was with Mussolini’s Italy, and Mussolini was a socialist too.

The Socialist Economics of Italian Fascism - Econlib

The economics of Italian Fascism is often ignored or trivialized because so much of it is found in today’s world economies. Consider some of the components of fascist economics: central planning, heavy state subsidies, protectionism (high tariffs), steep levels of nationalization, rampant...

www.econlib.org

FDR Praised Mussolini And Loved Fascism

History is brandished like an AR-15 by the American left when it appears to fit their narrow worldview, but shunned when it turns out to be less favorable.

dailycaller.com

The NSDAP was obsessed with race and eugenics but so were many on the left!

Eugenics and the master race of the left – archive,30 August 1997

30 August 1997 Forced sterilisations in Scandinavia have shocked the world. But the great founding fathers of British socialism, reports Jonathan Freedland, had dreams almost as vile as those of the Nazis

www.theguardian.com

Ruth Bader Ginsburg and a Question of Eugenics | National Review

Here’s what Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said in Sunday’s New York Times Magazine: “Frankly I had thought that at the time [Roe v. Wade] was decided,” Ginsburg told her interviewer, Em…

www.nationalreview.com

Regarding traditional morality:

H-Net Reviews

www.h-net.org

The Strange, Strange Story of the Gay Fascists

This is a taboo topic for a gay left-wing man like me to touch, but there has always been a weird, disproportionate overlap between homosexuality and fascism. Take a deep breath; here goes.

m.huffpost.com

 

[Second Summer]

Stalin killed devotees of competing brands of socialism, Hitler did the same.

No. Stalin killed socialists because they had competing visions of what socialism should be like, or sometimes just because he considered them a personal threat to his position as dictator. Hitler killed socialists because they were socialists, thereby by definition being in direct opposition to his far-right ideology.

If big government is not an essential characteristic of socialism what is? Cooperation? Concern for the poor?

Socialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I’ve noticed that many on the left can’t bear to admit that the Nazis were socialists even though Nazi stands for National Socialist German Workers Party!

I think you misunderstand how compound words work in German - the meaning changes when you add words to the front. It's a bit like your American "banana bread" which has nothing to do with bread.

The outlandish allegation that Nazis were socialists originated from a certain fringe group of US American right-wingers. It's an "alternative truth" in that camp.

The most important Nazi alliance was with Mussolini’s Italy, and Mussolini was a socialist too.

Young Mussolini was at one point a socialist, but then he had a change of heart. According to Wikipedia:

Benito Amilcare Andrea Mussolini (Italian: [beˈniːto mussoˈliːni];[1] 29 July 1883 – 28 April 1945) was an Italian politician and journalist who founded and led the National Fascist Party. He was Prime Minister of Italy from the Fascist coup d'état in 1922 to his deposition in 1943, and Duce ("Leader") of Italian Fascism from the establishment of the Italian Fasces of Combat in 1919 to his execution in 1945 during the Italian Civil War. As dictator of Italy and founder of the fascist movement, Mussolini inspired other totalitarian rulers such as Adolf Hitler, Francisco Franco, and António de Oliveira Salazar.[2][3][4][5][6]

Mussolini was originally a socialist politician and a journalist at the Avanti! newspaper. In 1912, he became a member of the National Directorate of the Italian Socialist Party (PSI),[7] but was expelled from the PSI for advocating military intervention in World War I, in opposition to the party's stance on neutrality. In 1914, Mussolini founded a new journal, Il Popolo d'Italia, and served in the Royal Italian Army during the war until he was wounded and discharged in 1917. Mussolini denounced the PSI, his views now centering on Italian nationalism instead of socialism, and later founded the fascist movement which came to oppose egalitarianism[8] and class conflict, instead advocating "revolutionary nationalism" transcending class lines.[9] Following the March on Rome in October 1922, Mussolini became the youngest Italian prime minister up to that time. After removing all political opposition through his secret police and outlawing labor strikes,[10] Mussolini and his followers consolidated power through a series of laws that transformed the nation into a one-party dictatorship. Within five years, Mussolini had established dictatorial authority by both legal and illegal means and aspired to create a totalitarian state.

This is all relatively well-known to anyone who has studied fascism.

 

[Pythagoras]

No. Stalin killed socialists because they had competing visions of what socialism should be like, or sometimes just because he considered them a personal threat to his position as dictator. Hitler killed socialists because they were socialists, thereby by definition being in direct opposition to his far-right ideology.

Socialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think you misunderstand how compound words work in German - the meaning changes when you add words to the front. It's a bit like your American "banana bread" which has nothing to do with bread.

The outlandish allegation that Nazis were socialists originated from a certain fringe group of US American right-wingers. It's an "alternative truth" in that camp.

Young Mussolini was at one point a socialist, but then he had a change of heart. According to Wikipedia:

This is all relatively well-known to anyone who has studied fascism.

Banana bread aside, your argument seems to amount to mere name-calling.

Can you acknowledge that Fascists, Nazis, Communists, and various other socialists embraced a bloated, intrusive government?

Making People Superfluous: Hannah Arendt on Ideology and Totalitarianism - Intercollegiate Studies Institute

Hannah Arendt (1906–1975) was a thinker of the first order but one who defies easy categorization.

isi.org

Can you acknowledge that a considerable number of prominent socialists embraced eugenics?

Why Did Leon Trotsky Favor Eugenics? | Jeffrey A. Tucker

Was his push for eugenics driven by racial panic, as was the case with many Progressive Era intellectuals? Was it merely a general desire to improve the genetic composition of the average person? Puritanism maybe? Or perhaps it was actually a political motivation. Maybe the ultimate answer to...

fee.org

Did Soviet leaders always defend the working class? They imprisoned and starved millions of working class folk.

Holodomor (Famine genocide in Ukraine, 1932-33) Information Links

Holodomor information resources on the web and in print: studies, historical facts, written eyewitness accounts. Ukrainian Famine Genocide resources for students and teachers interested in furthering their knowledge on the subject of Holodomor.

holodomorct.org